Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Posts 1 to 50 of 253
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    || D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||
    tempo 100

    Barry Harris prescribes these basic scale outlines:
    D-6 : Ascend D E F G A A# B
    E-7b5 A7b9: Descend C7 scale from Bb down to C# which is the 3rd of A7.

    How do Jerry Bergonzi and David Baker prescribe basic scale outlines for ||: D-6 | E-7b6 A7b9 :|| ?

    Mark Levine would prescribe three scales:

    • Over the iim7(b5) chord, use a melodic minor scale up a minor third from the root. Ex. Em7(b5)=G melodic minor
    • Over the V7 chord, use a melodic minor scale up a half-step from the root. Ex. A7=Bb melodic minor
    • Over the imin69, use the melodic minor scale based on the root. Ex. Dmin69=D melodic minor



    Last edited by rintincop; 03-29-2020 at 07:31 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    How fast is it moving?

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Don't know about the guys you cite but why make it complicated? Typically these are two beats each in a 4/4 tune, although not always, so there's not a lot of time to worry about it. You could play the C mixolydian scale al la BH, or think F major which to me is simpler still and will give you a little bluesy rub. Or D harmonic minor since that's the scale both chords come from.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    The point is, if it's moving fast, you haven't got time to mess around with two scales. Unless maybe you work out a lick in advance and just repeat it every time. Ugh!

    So what Cunamara just said - D harm for obvious reasons, F maj because it's the relative major - so C7 as a swap over the minor ii-V. C7 is bluesy (b9 and #9 of A7).

    But also, what's the next chord after the A7b9? Dm or something else? Also what's the tune doing?

    Context, always context. Unless it's all just theoretical, of course :-)

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    IIRC David Baker also suggests C dominant on Em7b5

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    IIRC David Baker also suggests C dominant on Em7b5
    Which makes perfect sense since Em7b5 is the upper structure of C7 and C7b9 can be substituted for A7b9 (family of four?)

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I know Barry Harris teaches:
    Over E-7b5 A7b9 play the C7 scale from its 7th(Bb) down to C#.

    How do Jerry Bergonzi and David Baker teach scale play over E-7b6 A7b9 ?

    Mark Levine would prescribe two scales:
    G melodic minor for E-7b5
    Bb melodic minor (or A half-whole dim scale ) for A7b9

    If I were thinking about it, I'd be thinking D minor tonal center. That's aeolean, meaning same notes as F major.

    Em7b5 is E G Bb D, so you get all the chord tones. The notes left over from Dminor are F A C. The other notes are Eb Gb Ab B and Db.

    Any of the D minor notes will work, but you have to be careful of how you lean on them.

    Of the others, Db is a note that marks the transition to the A7b9. The movement of D to Db is defining. So save it. The B natural will change the tonality by taking away the b5, so you'll have to be careful with that one. Ab has the same problem -- it's the major third against a minor chord. Eb is surrounded on both sides by chord tones, so it's a tough choice. Gb makes it a Em9b5, which can sound okay, to my ear.

    So, what do you get? D aeolean and some adjustments. If you want to name the adjusted scales, you can. One is Gmelmin. Another is Dharmmin. Bbmelmin works against A7 to create an alt sound. etc. It has always seemed natural to me to make these adjustments by ear.

    And, if you get in the octave above the comping for your solo, you can sort of keep D aeolian in the back of your mind and play almost anything with a decent melodic structure and good time.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?
    The notes are C E G Bb. Raise that C to a D and you've got Em7b5. Also Gm6.

    So, one reason C7 works is because the notes are mostly chord tones of the Em7b5.

    Also, from the perspective of A7, you get 5 b7 b9 #9, which gives a nice altered ninth sound.

    Or, you could think about Dm as being relative to Fmajor and C7 is the V7 chord in Fmajor.

    But, mostly it works because it has a lot of the chord tones and extensions you want, and not much you don't want.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Go on, go on! - D harm.Major over all of it!!

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?
    It's an accepted substitute to play the relative major over the minor ii-V. Playing C7 over Em7b5-A7b9 gives you a bluesy sound. It's not always appropriate but when it works, it works.

    i.e. what rpjazzguitar said.

    Why not play it yourself and see? That's the best way.

    (It's also, to be honest, a bit of a cheap hack because the maj scale's easier than all that minor stuff :-))

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Em7b5 is just C9, is just Gminor 6.

    Good luck with those whole scales over 2 beats.

  14. #13
    And Jerry Bergonzi teaches E-7b5 A7b9 scale application how?

    We know this ii V almost always occurs as 2 beat or 4 beat pacing:

    Ex:
    | E-7b5 A7b9 |
    | E-7b5 | A7b9 |
    ____

    I think C7 descending from Bb to C# is the ideal pool of notes. The chord tones hit in perfect alignment. There is no more melodic a scale run than this case, imo. Bird favored it, Monk showed it to Barry, etc.

    Here's another test of C7 with C# included (which is it's b9 of C7 and the 3rd of A7, but one doesn't need to think of that when playing it) :
    Play 5432 phrases using any other tonic choice... then try C7 with C# included.
    I realized 5432 works beautifully on C7 including C# over | E-7b5 | A7b9 |
    Playing E Locrian, not so much...it's awkward
    Playing D harmonic minor, not so much...it's awkward

    Christian said something like we know "a ton of C7 stuff" so why not play it over ii V minor . I agree!

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    With Barry harris you get good at running scales into each other.
    so you start off in C7 say and move through Eb7.

    or you play mostly using a C7 and use C#o7 to get into D minor

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    It’s taken me a while to realise that what people call E locrian I think of as emphasising the 3rd of C7.

    Same thing really, but I think it’s possible some students might think of a whole separate fingering for an E locrian scale.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s taken me a while to realise that what people call E locrian I think of as emphasising the 3rd of C7.

    Same thing really, but I think it’s possible some students might think of a whole separate fingering for an E locrian scale.
    I agree with you. By the way, have you tried 5432 phrases in E Locrian or Locrian #2, it won't work for me. And then A7b9 comes along moments later and I am really messed up by having been in that moment of Locrian.

    I think C7 descending from Bb to C# is the
    ideal pool of notes
    . The chord tones hit in
    perfect
    alignment. I see the pool as the scale

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Honestly, I'd want to know if the subsequent Dm is a place of rest or if we get moving towards some other target right away.

    I can't chase changes anymore. I'd be playing anything that pulled me to Dm that I felt like at the moment. C7, Eb7, Dbmaj7, whatevs...

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    So, if you like C7 from Bb to C# .. because it puts all the right notes on the strong beats ... does that mean you play it that way every time? So, it's a lick that you plug into those changes? And, then you learn another, and another, and that's what you play?

    I'm not trying to be difficult -- I never had any formal training of this type. Is that the idea?

    How do you move from that to real improvisation, or is that real improvisation?

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?
    For D min target, C7 is also called the backdoor dominant. In general C7 can be used like an A7. Both harmonically and melodically.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    For D min target, C7 is also called the backdoor dominant. In general C7 can be used like an A7. Both harmonically and melodically.
    You can move it up by minor thirds and get Eb7, Gb7 and A7.

    Eb G Bb Db, all notes work against A7.
    Gb Bb Db E, all work
    A Db E G, all work.

    Dbmin7 ... Db E G Bb. All three 7ths are within one note -- which is why some people prefer to start with diminished chords and build from there.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Honestly, I'd want to know if the subsequent Dm is a place of rest or if we get moving towards some other target right away.

    I can't chase changes anymore. I'd be playing anything that pulled me to Dm that I felt like at the moment. C7, Eb7, Dbmaj7, whatevs...
    ||: D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||
    Last edited by rintincop; 02-26-2020 at 10:09 PM.

  23. #22
    ||: D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    So, if you like C7 from Bb to C# .. because it puts all the right notes on the strong beats ... does that mean you play it that way every time? So, it's a lick that you plug into those changes? And, then you learn another, and another, and that's what you play?

    I'm not trying to be difficult -- I never had any formal training of this type. Is that the idea?

    How do you move from that to real improvisation, or is that real improvisation?
    Of course not, but it's the default basic starting point scale for myself and my students... learned from Barry Harris, the greatest jazz teacher ever.

    Then we practice this C7 down from Bb to C# (over E-7b5 A7b9) every session as our warm up. (And we drill it all 12 keys of course.)
    Play the scale up.
    Play the scale down.
    Play the scale up and down.
    Play the scale down and up.
    Play 12345, 34567, 567.
    Play 76543, 54321, 321.
    Play it in 3rds.
    Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 3rds.
    Play it in triads (also pivots).
    Play the chromatic approach note to each of the triads.
    Play it in 7th chords (also as pivots).
    Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 7th chords.
    PLAY the 54321 Phrases (also ascending forms).
    Play the 876 Phrases .
    Play the Barry Harris form of chromatic scale for C7.

    NOW FREELY MIX ALL OF THE ABOVE ELEMENTS AND YOU ARE PRACTICING IMPROVISATION FUMDEMENTALS. Mess it up.

    We now know how to play a lot of stuff on the C7 scale.... in improvisation we play what we know.
    Last edited by rintincop; 02-27-2020 at 02:13 AM.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    ||: D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||



    Of course not, but it's the default basic starting point scale for myself and my students... learned from Barry Harris, the greatest jazz teacher ever.

    Then we practice this C7 down from Bb to C# (
    E-7b5 A7b9 )
    every session as our warm up. (And in other common keys)
    Play the scale it up.
    Play the scale down.
    Play the scale up and down.
    Play the scale down and up.
    Play 12345, 34567, 567.
    Play 76543, 54321, 321.
    Play it in 3rds.
    Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 3rds.
    Play it in triads (also pivots).
    Play the chromatic approach note to each of the triads.
    Play it in 7th chords (also as pivots).
    Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 7th chords.
    PLAY the 54321 Phrases (also ascending forms).
    Play the 876 Phrases .
    Play the Barry Harris form of chromatic scale for C7.

    NOW FREELY MIX ALL OF THE ABOVE ELEMENTS AND YOU ARE PRACTICING IMPROVISATION FUMDEMENTALS. Mess it up.

    We now know how to play a lot of stuff on the C7 scale.... in improvisation we play what we know.
    Thank you. If I can ask a little more ... how is this organized?

    Suppose I am practicing all these ways to navigate through C7 (Cmixo, right?). Do I do this against harmony? If so, which chords?

    Then, I understand I have to get it in all keys all over the neck. So, suppose now I can navigate 7th chords in multiple ways all over.

    What's next? Do the same for Cm7? All the variations of a C rooted chord?

    Do I practice this stuff against harmony? Which chords? How do I organize that?

    When do I get to practicing tunes and is there a specific approach to doing that?

    Is there a book/article/comprehensive-outline for how to proceed through this approach?

    I ask these questions seriously. Even though I've been playing for a long time, I don't think I have fully understood the approach you describe.

    For contrast, or discussion, here's the approach I have taken. Learn to read. Learn the fingerboard. Memorize the notes in the chords you use. Play songs and improvise. Twelve keys. IRealpro for backing changing the key by a 4th every chorus. Focus on the sounds of altered 3rds, 5ths and 9ths. Comp the tunes in 12 keys - builds the ear. Also, and maybe even more important: do everything with an intense focus on time-feel. Nothing sounds good with bad time. Lots of stuff sounds good with good time. My approach has pros and cons, but this post is long enough.

  25. #24
    It's "the basics" in Chapt 1 of the Howard Reese book "The Barry Harris Workshops" .

    I'm a pianist, so I practice it over my left hand accompaniment on
    I VI ii V, and over minor I vi ii V, also over blues, and all the standards.
    For guitar I practice it all without accompaniment. It "makes the changes" so clearly that I don't need accompaniment to hear what going on.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Am I the only guy that likes HW dim over min 2-5 ?

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Am I the only guy that likes HW dim over min 2-5 ?
    You give up some things with the diminished scale in over ii-7b5 V7b9 (ii V in minor). It omits a lot of the chord tones and goes out of alignment quickly. So I don't practice it as much.
    Last edited by rintincop; 02-27-2020 at 02:50 AM.

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Average Joe
    Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?
    Another way to think about this is Dmin7 is the same chord as FMaj6.

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    You give up some things with the diminished scale in over ii-7b5 V7b9 (ii V in minor). It omits a lot of the chord tones and goes out of alignment quickly. So I don't practice it as much.
    Really?



    Em7b5.........................A7b9


    E G Bb D ...........A C# E G Bb


    Dim scale beginning on a chord tone of A7b9


    Bb C C# Eb E Gb G A


    Just like you can ignore the ii of the V in maj 2-5, you can do the same in min 2-5. The dim scale hits all the chord tones of the V7b9. At any rate, I don't like complete scale "runs" , so I work on lots of subsets (eg- diminished pentatonics etc). I used to do the back door mixo thing (C7), but it sounds kinda lame to me now...

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    Yea... there are more than enough options. But typically you don't play all notes etc.. The simple trick is using a plan to organize your results.

    Most contexts have standard functional movements... the II V, E-7b5 A7b9... or whatever chords or note collections you choose to create relationships and develop... don't just happen one time.

    So you need to decide what the Chord Pattern is or what it can become.
    Is it each chord a tonal target.... E-7b5 has subdominat function, A7 has dominant function and D- is Tonic.

    Or is the II V a chord pattern... functioning as one tonal element. Subdominant or Dominant to D- the Tonic, or is the whole Chord Pattern one element.... a loop. One function, the key of " E-7b5, A7b9, Dmin".

    Yada Yada... and you need to decide what the context is, the tune, usually from quick analysis which includes melody, changes, rhythm...Form. Then make a quick choice how you want to perform your choices... This helps with musical organization of what subs you use, (the reasons why you use subs), and what other Harmonic and melodic relationships you choose to develop.

    The examples from rintincop are great and obvious right... and that's one reference... (there are more and personally better. I just don't like the BH thing, to muddy), but typically your going to be listening and comping more than soloing... so you need them all.

    IPO... after you have all the option together, possible note collections and organizations of... you can start the melodic organization, if your a melody lover, make sure the harmonic choices also reflect your melodic organization.

    It can work... if you just use your ears and let the music happen, and I understand that wrong notes are part of playing jazz...but organization of wrong notes is generally how they become right notes.

    Like I said above, you don't play all the notes... in a couple of beats or even a couple of bars... but you might after playing a few choruses. That one of those Space or Form organizational things... your setting up what your going to play later. The shape of your solo etc...

    So this process of laying out all the possibilities isn't hard, right. Take all typical note collections and their diatonic possibilities...You'll end up with all the possible chords and their sources. Start plugging and playing results, a matrix, then go through common added notes... blue notes, common embellishments etc... you'll get results of common added note chords.

    Then the actual playing aspect... learn the common chord patterns and where they're from. Learn how to use functional organization of chords or note collections and chord patterns which are just common collections of combinations of chords. And from the work of laying out the possible sources of those note collections... you'll be able to start Plugging and playing with organization along with expanding with subs etc... all with musical organization.

    Yea.. then you start to have layers of organization going on... basically just Function or context, root motion, lead lines or melodies and the filler notes, the harmonic thing.

    And you end up with very organizational approach to plug and play with,

    1) Function or context, the big tonal organization of how your using...
    2) Root motion, The reference Harmonic Rhythm
    3) The melody or target notes that become part of that Harmonic Rhythm
    4) All the organized options of plug and play harmony or rest of the notes, the tonal thing.

    You can obviously start from anywhere... but you need to know results from options.

    * this is really not that complicated, my presentation needs work.

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    Am I the only one who thinks all these scales are clunky? I prefer to think of the chord tones and the extensions surrounding them depending on what phrase or sound I want to play.

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    Hell yes... very clunky. And if you didn't put in the time to know what Chord Tones and extensions are.... so would they.

    Even just thinking chord tones.... who just plays basic chords, from chart or in our head or ears... just over and over etc...

    Maybe someday we'll just be able to plug our brain into our phone or download an app that will get rid of thinking all together.

    hey Erwin... sorry, really, don't mean to make rude statements after your post. It's just all the clunky BS is not that difficult. In general, if musicians or guitar players, (this Forum), would put in 25% of the time they put into playing shit over and over to make it work. The result might be... wow, this BS is easy, maybe I don't need to memorize everything I play... I can actually play and create at the same time. Or even if your more of an in the moment player... use your ears with more organized possibilities. Be able to hear more...

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Clunky if you view it as "play this over this."

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    I mean everyone has different goals but for me if I want to play some form the "jazz language" I have yet to see how scale systems help with this. Perhaps maybe it can be used to organize some of it? But for me personally I like to transcribe quiet a bit and I don't see how its beneficial to lump the language and phrases I learn from the masters into some sort of scale system. This is coming from someone who intellectually understands modes and scales ect. Anyways If it works for people to think this way that's awesome as everyone see's this differently! It just seems clunky as mentioned before.

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    Well, I think that's all any of this is, organization.

    So when I see people say "play this scale over this," I kinda know they're doomed. But if you look at it more as a "getting from point A to B," or cataloging sounds you know work, then it's useful. The music still comes first, obviously...but after a while, you can only hold so many phrases in your head...you have to try to make some sense of the "why," as in "why does this work, or sound good?"

  36. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, I think that's all any of this is, organization.

    So when I see people say "play this scale over this," I kinda know they're doomed. But if you look at it more as a "getting from point A to B," or cataloging sounds you know work, then it's useful. The music still comes first, obviously...but after a while, you can only hold so many phrases in your head...you have to try to make some sense of the "why," as in "why does this work, or sound good?"
    I can dig this. But when thinking of "why does this sound good" I reckon I prefer to think, "oh because he's playing the 9th here and that has this sound" as opposed to this note fits within this scale, which seems too unspecific for my tastes. If i want to tap into and expand upon a specific phrase or sound that I like, I personally think its much more specific than the notion that it fits within a scale. In which I guess I'd rather think more about specific intervals.

  37. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Irwin1993
    I can dig this. But when thinking of "why does this sound good" I reckon I prefer to think, "oh because he's playing the 9th here and that has this sound" as opposed to this note fits within this scale, which seems too unspecific for my tastes. Just as an example
    Well, yeah, there's a lot of different things that go into making a line sound good...pitch collections are just one...

  38. #37

    User Info Menu

    Good point, I mean all of the things I've mentioned are totally disregarding rhythm, dynamics, feel ect.

  39. #38

    User Info Menu

    I think everyone who can play jazz are self taught. It doesn't matter if they went to a jazz school, studied with the best players or read all the books. I'm realizing that the key breakthroughs can only be achieved by individual experimentation and discovery.
    Scales, chord tones, licks and what not are very crude, incomplete approximations for a process that no one seems to have figured out how to prescribe.
    Every jazz player I know, every pro I studied with have developed their own individual systems and ways of thinking.

  40. #39

    User Info Menu

    As some have been saying, let's just substitute "pitch collections" for "scales" so we can keep the discussion going. I'm interested to know what some of you prefer to pull from over the min 2-5 in various contexts. Do you address both chords? Do you just play V7b9 stuff over both? Do you favour certain PC's - like the harmonic minor?, alt scale? Chord tones? Extensions? Subs?, Chromatic embellishments? Licks? Devices?

    Let's face it, min 2-5's (and indeed minor keys) are not as commonly found or used in Jazz as much as it's counterpart in major. Personally, I'm beginning to prefer minor keys these days, so the more discussion about it the better!

  41. #40

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Am I the only guy that likes HW dim over min 2-5 ?
    Yes

    no one likes that

    seriously though, dim symmetry is really suggested by a lot of progressions, certainly this one.

  42. #41

    User Info Menu

    So if we're talking favorite go to "pitch collections," I'm pretty much ignoring the ii.

    So going to Dm through A7, i like A7b9, or a harmonic minor phyrg dom sound, diminished from say, the 3rd, 7(#11) a half step above (so Eb7#11) or really any kind of Eb major or dominant sound, or C7, or G minor to D minor. That's off the top of my head without a guitar, I'm sure if I had an instrument there'd be a few more "pet patterns" I dig. Oh, one more, very apt to think A7b9#5 (b13, whatever) there, which isn't so different than Eb9#11 I guess...

  43. #42

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    As some have been saying, let's just substitute "pitch collections" for "scales" so we can keep the discussion going. I'm interested to know what some of you prefer to pull from over the min 2-5 in various contexts. Do you address both chords? Do you just play V7b9 stuff over both? Do you favour certain PC's - like the harmonic minor?, alt scale? Chord tones? Extensions? Subs?, Chromatic embellishments? Licks? Devices?

    Let's face it, min 2-5's (and indeed minor keys) are not as commonly found or used in Jazz as much as it's counterpart in major. Personally, I'm beginning to prefer minor keys these days, so the more discussion about it the better!
    argghhh. I mean, it’s just so many notes! Real jazz lines don’t have enough notes in them to call it a lot of the time.

    the Dim tetrachord for instance, 1-b9-#9-9 on a V7 - is far more useful than any whole scale and far more prevalent. What alt Dom scale does it relate to?

    the answer is yes.

    also. Fucking voice leading. It is not necessary to make a meal out of the dominant, because any note will work provided it is part of voice leading. Connections are important. The ear hears stepwise connections easier than harmonic relations. So the major 7 on V7 will work if it connects by step to the target chord. See of course Night in Tunisia and countless bop lines.

    it also hears triads. So if you want a half-wholedim tonality really the bit you actually want is the 13b9 right? Because that’s the cool sound that you don’t find in more regular altered dominant. You don’t want a whole dim scale because playing an 8 note scale is - not going to happen. Instead you use, eg, an E triad (with maybe an F) over the G7.

    but that sound is parented by the BH dim scales as well. In this case Abm6-dim, which also includes the other altered dom notes. Because of this it has been called the ‘perfect altered scale’ by Howard Rees.

    Very often I’m not even thinking of what the extension is. I just play an Ab because there was an A earlier and I’m going to a G. Running the line.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2020 at 02:20 PM.

  44. #43
    What Is This Thing Called Love - Cole Porter

    || G-7b5 | C7b9 | F-6 | F-6 |
    | D-7b5 | G7b9 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

    8 beats (16 eighth notes) of the so called diminished scale each line? Thus never getting the G-7b5 right... No thank you . I would rather teach my students a basic ideal melodic framework. Barry Harris learned this melodic application from Thelonius Monk.
    Charlie Parker used it as his go to melodic application over minor 7 flat 5.
    Whoever says it's muddy is mistaken, imo. It's Mark Levine type chord scale theory that is is confused.

  45. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    What Is This Thing Called Love - Cole Porter

    || G-7b5 | C7b9 | F-6 | F-6 |
    | D-7b5 | G7b9 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

    8 beats (16 eighth notes) of the so called diminished scale each line? No thank you . I want to teach my students a basic ideal framework. Barry Harris learned this application from Thelonius Monk and Charlie Parker used it as his go to application.
    Whoever says it's muddy is confused, imo. It's Mark Levine chord scale theory that is is confused.
    That song is sooooooo harmonic minor to my ears in the melody, I can't divorce myself from that for blowing.

  46. #45
    The Barry Harris application (minor 7 b5 to dominant 7 b9) is harmonic minor in disguise. It's harmonic minor re-phrased, re-aligned, it's been optimized. It's pragmatic. In contrast, straight up the harmonic minor scale sucks.

  47. #46

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    The Barry Harris application (minor 7 b5 to dominant 7 b9) is harmonic minor in disguise. It's harmonic minor re-phrased, re-aligned, it's been optimized. It's pragmatic. In contrast, straight up the harmonic minor scale sucks.
    Who plays straight scales?

  48. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Who plays straight scales?
    Students through masters. It's basics. In all 12 major and minor keys.

    Your question is like asking a martial artist "who practices katas?" "That's not really fighting (improvising)". The idea is to practice ideal movements. Then when you spar with an opponent in martial it's improvised and your body has unconscious ideal movements. But in order to spar you need to have many hours of daily basic ideal movements under your belt. Scales are movements.

    It's like asking a professional ballet dancer "who practices plies or eleves?" (basics) YES, every day.

    Or asking does a tennis champion "practices basic serves?" YES!

    The only "straight scale" that sounds good over minor 7 b5 Dominant b9 (in relation to the chords) is the one Monk taught Barry Harris, imo. However, I wouldn't call it a straight scale. Play C7 (E-7b5) down from the 7th to C# is hardly normal or "straight", it's pretty tricky.
    Maybe piano players realize it more than guitarists since their left hand is always laying down the harmony when practicing right hand single note playing.

    Last edited by rintincop; 02-27-2020 at 03:06 PM.

  49. #48
    Ask Ron Carter what he practices.
    Answer: the scale.

    Ask Ron Carter what he teaches his students.
    Answer: the scale

    Ask Barry Harris what he practices.
    Answer: movements in the scale.

    Ask Barry Harris what he teaches his students.
    Answer: movements in the scale

  50. #49
    So, back to the original post, does anybody know what scale approach Jerry Bergonzi prescribes over
    E-7b5 A7b9 ?

  51. #50

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Students through masters. It's basics. In all 12 major and minor keys.

    Your question is like asking a martial artist "who practices katas?" "That's not really fighting (improvising)". The idea is to practice ideal movements. Then when you spar with an opponent in martial it's improvised and your body has unconscious ideal movements. But in order to spar you need to have many hours of daily basic ideal movements under your belt. Scales are movements.

    It's like asking a professional ballet dancer "who practices plies or eleves?" (basics) YES, every day.

    Or asking does a tennis champion "practices basic serves?" YES!

    The only "straight scale" that sounds good over minor 7 b5 Dominant b9 (in relation to the chords) is the one Monk taught Barry Harris, imo. However, I wouldn't call it a straight scale. Play C7 (E-7b5) down from the 7th to C# is hardly normal or "straight", it's pretty tricky.
    Maybe piano players realize it more than guitarists since their left hand is always laying down the harmony when practicing right hand single note playing.


    I didn't ask who practices straight scales, I asked who plays them when improvising?