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  1. #151

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    Hey Christian... thanks for the kid things... they shaped my like and made many choices for me...yada yada

    Anyway... take a tune, any tune, one you like. record yourself soloing ... take two 4 bar sections.... what you hear as the best and what you don't like, not wrong notes just doesn't sound that great.

    Then voice those 4 bar solo phrases out with 5 part sax section... you could add a bass line.

    I've been doing this for 40 years... really. The process really cleaned up my ears... not that I don't still play shit and screw everything up all the time... I really like being the edge of crash and burn, when I can.
    (I'm not implying your ears need cleaning) lol. Back in the 70's we were into that super sax thing... arranging existing solos...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    do you think it’s possible that
    different people need different
    learning methods ?

    chordscales
    arps
    BH
    Joe Pass ‘ignore the 2 chord’
    someone else ‘ignore the V chord’
    Would that be Pat Martino? I get that for a major 2-5-1, but it doesn't work as well for me with a minor 2-5-1. Consider the original example, Em7b5 A7b9. If you think "Em7b5", you probably won't play a C# over the A7b9, and every time you do that, Barry Harris kills a puppy.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Would that be Pat Martino? I get that for a major 2-5-1, but it doesn't work as well for me with a minor 2-5-1. Consider the original example, Em7b5 A7b9. If you think "Em7b5", you probably won't play a C# over the A7b9, and every time you do that, Barry Harris kills a puppy.
    It’s true. I’ve seen it happen.

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Christian... thanks for the kid things... they shaped my like and made many choices for me...yada yada

    Anyway... take a tune, any tune, one you like. record yourself soloing ... take two 4 bar sections.... what you hear as the best and what you don't like, not wrong notes just doesn't sound that great.

    Then voice those 4 bar solo phrases out with 5 part sax section... you could add a bass line.

    I've been doing this for 40 years... really. The process really cleaned up my ears... not that I don't still play shit and screw everything up all the time... I really like being the edge of crash and burn, when I can.
    (I'm not implying your ears need cleaning) lol. Back in the 70's we were into that super sax thing... arranging existing solos...
    Ha im certain they do. That sounds like a fun exercise I may well give it a go.

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Would that be Pat Martino? I get that for a major 2-5-1, but it doesn't work as well for me with a minor 2-5-1. Consider the original example, Em7b5 A7b9. If you think "Em7b5", you probably won't play a C# over the A7b9, and every time you do that, Barry Harris kills a puppy.
    pat would play either Gm or Bbm

    or Gm into Bbm

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by hohoho
    So, some Bergonzi again. This time from Chord Scale chapter in his Volume 6 book: "A Zen approach would be to pick the scale that sounds best to you."
    I think that would be the non complete bullshit approach, pace Bergonzi lol. But people like to be spoonfed stuff, they don’t trust themselves. I think part of it is to teach them to make their own decisions and have their own preferences.

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    pat would play either Gm or Bbm

    or Gm into Bbm
    And he’s not thinking necessarily of a scale right? But minor ‘stuff’ (that he calls a Topic)

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    pat would play either Gm or Bbm

    or Gm into Bbm
    That's okay, then! Bbm is thinking altered over the V chord. But to me that is thinking "V", not "ii".

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    And he’s not thinking necessarily of a scale right? But minor ‘stuff’ (that he calls a Topic)
    no scale. i have not heard him calling it a topic but it makes sense. in linear expressions he calls it an activity.

    to me they are "bebop gestures" organized in minor. it's just his personal way to spin lines. it's almost like pretending not to voice-lead if you know what i mean. but you can't convert to martino-minor if you cant tell a II chord from a VI chord. which makes it a dangerous concept for beginners

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    That's okay, then! Bbm is thinking altered over the V chord. But to me that is thinking "V", not "ii".
    there is no thinking involved

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    And he’s not thinking necessarily of a scale right? But minor ‘stuff’ (that he calls a Topic)
    thats how i roll too ...

    ‘Gm stuff’
    ‘Bbm stuff’ etc

    im not particularly conscious of
    which min scale i’m using
    it’s just min stuff

    im not saying i’m right to do that
    its just what works best for me

    if Martino does that too ie ‘topics’
    then that very validating , thanks

    he sure can play !
    that Oleo on 12 string is phenomenal to me

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    pat would play either Gm or Bbm

    or Gm into Bbm
    Why wonder what Pat would play on a iim7b5 - V7, when you could just check out what he did play?

    There are quite a few to observe here (not all the same key but that shouldn’t be a big obstacle):

    E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker-7f262665-f406-4d42-bb27-b8bb3bab6091-jpg
    I’m partial to this one, because it has some nice “wrong” notes in it.

    E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker-f606ae2f-40f2-423b-a9d3-5fb36ecd112b-jpg

    Here’s the whole thing:

    alone-together-pat-martino.pdf
    Attached Images Attached Images E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker-b3ddad92-75f7-4bf0-af8c-c3d35ebebd92-jpg 

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by bengruven
    Why wonder what Pat would play on a iim7b5 - V7, when you could just check out what he did play?


    E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker-f606ae2f-40f2-423b-a9d3-5fb36ecd112b-jpg
    i don't wonder because i did check it out 25 years ago


    bar 22 is actually Am into A7. so the only slightly odd note is the passing note F#.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i don't wonder because i did check it out 25 years ago


    bar 22 is actually Am into A7. so the only slightly odd note is the passing note F#.
    Ah, well I sincerely beg your pardon, Sir; I do apologize.

    That being said, I think there is more to be learned from that solo than any variant of CST is ever going to get you to.

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by bengruven
    Ah, well I sincerely beg your pardon, Sir; I do apologize.

    That being said, I think there is more to be learned from that solo than any variant of CST is ever going to get you to.
    you dont have to convince me of that. you're barking up the wrong tree.

  17. #166

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  21. #170

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But the idea of ‘ill fitting notes’ I don’t like that as a way of thinking.


    TL;DR nothing wrong with learning licks!
    What player doesn't address the issue of "ill-fitting notes"?.

    Take, for example, a tune as simple as All of Me. Cmaj then goes to E7. You can outline that change by moving the G to G#. You don't have to. You might find a line that allows you to play G as the #9 over E7, but if you are trying to play a simple, straightforward, non-challenging line, G over E7 may be an ill fit. Chord then changes to A7. You can still think about being in C tonal center, but now you have to move the C to C#. You could play C, but the same considerations apply. When the D7 moves to G7, the F# is going to be an ill fit. You even have to consider how the octave you choose for the note affects the fit.

    Doing it this way requires that you know the fingerboard and you know the notes in the chords you use, both instantly. It doesn't mesh perfectly with what seems to be a common way players learn to cover chords -- which, apparently, involves learning fingering patterns and playing out of them. I could be wrong about that since I'm not speaking from my own experience in making this statement. Of course, over time, different approaches can lead to the same goal.

    Back to All of Me. Alternatively, you could decide to play 5th mode A harm min over the E7, and 5th mode D melodic minor over the A7, etc. which amounts to exactly the same thing, but with Greek names.

    Andre Bush, since passed, advocated a system of 12 notes, all equal. Everybody else makes judgements about quality of fit.

    The advantage of thinking this way is that you focus on the voice leading. C Ionian to A Harmonic Minor changes one note. I think it's worthwhile to think about what that movement is. If someone learns that using the Greek names, that's fine. I learned it by tonal center and adjustments.

    As far as hearing my playing goes, I've posted a bunch of mp3s.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-24-2020 at 02:57 PM.

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by bengruven
    Why wonder what Pat would play on a iim7b5 - V7, when you could just check out what he did play?

    There are quite a few to observe here (not all the same key but that shouldn’t be a big obstacle):

    E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker-7f262665-f406-4d42-bb27-b8bb3bab6091-jpg
    I’m partial to this one, because it has some nice “wrong” notes in it.

    E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker-f606ae2f-40f2-423b-a9d3-5fb36ecd112b-jpg

    Here’s the whole thing:

    alone-together-pat-martino.pdf
    Theres some good examples of the G dominant scale on Bm7b5 E7b9 in that solo. The G-F#-F move which the hoi polloi might call the bebop scale (urgh!)

    G Dom on E7 gives you the #9...

  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Theres some good examples of the G dominant scale on Bm7b5 E7b9 in that solo. The G-F#-F move which the hoi polloi might call the bebop scale (urgh!)

    G Dom on E7 gives you the #9...
    bar 14. pat would call it Dm into Fm (via F# G Ab)

    theory is just a way to organize language.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    bar 14. pat would call it Dm into Fm (via F# G Ab)

    theory is just a way to organize language.
    Not sure if I understand how that works.

    But I do think it's illustrative that I could sit down and look at the Martino solo from the perspective of Barry Harris when I know for a fact he doesn't think that way.

    I was think that Martino might think of a sort of minor bebop thing - dorian or mel minor with an added major 3rd.

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    bar 14. pat would call it Dm into Fm (via F# G Ab)

    theory is just a way to organize language.
    I like the symmetry in bars 14 to 15: C D F | E C# B
    You shift down a fret and play the three notes in reverse.

  27. #176
    I like this, Barry Harris piano

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I like this, Barry Harris piano
    the bass player was one of my teachers. koos serierse, an incredibly generous gentleman and fantastic musician.

  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    What player doesn't address the issue of "ill-fitting notes"?.

    Take, for example, a tune as simple as All of Me. Cmaj then goes to E7. You can outline that change by moving the G to G#. You don't have to. You might find a line that allows you to play G as the #9 over E7, but if you are trying to play a simple, straightforward, non-challenging line, G over E7 may be an ill fit. Chord then changes to A7. You can still think about being in C tonal center, but now you have to move the C to C#. You could play C, but the same considerations apply. When the D7 moves to G7, the F# is going to be an ill fit. You even have to consider how the octave you choose for the note affects the fit.
    Yeah I think this might be purely a language thing but I think the way we talk about things is important. When I play a line I am really not thinking about notes I want to avoid.

    Doing it this way requires that you know the fingerboard and you know the notes in the chords you use, both instantly. It doesn't mesh perfectly with what seems to be a common way players learn to cover chords -- which, apparently, involves learning fingering patterns and playing out of them. I could be wrong about that since I'm not speaking from my own experience in making this statement. Of course, over time, different approaches can lead to the same goal.

    Back to All of Me. Alternatively, you could decide to play 5th mode A harm min over the E7, and 5th mode D melodic minor over the A7, etc. which amounts to exactly the same thing, but with Greek names.

    Andre Bush, since passed, advocated a system of 12 notes, all equal. Everybody else makes judgements about quality of fit.

    The advantage of thinking this way is that you focus on the voice leading. C Ionian to A Harmonic Minor changes one note. I think it's worthwhile to think about what that movement is. If someone learns that using the Greek names, that's fine. I learned it by tonal center and adjustments.
    No this is an approach to playing I am familiar with and even use to an extent. To me this is a swing era concept. Also if you play piano you are going to see this stuff when you put the arpeggios and voicings on the piano. Not so obvious on the guitar, and definitely something got from playing tunes on the piano. It’s a good simple way to play changes. It also makes me think of Jim Hall.

    All of Me is a very vertical tune of course. Things like Lady be Good have more leeway. At least to my ears.

    On the guitar working on stuff in position is like learning the keys.

    The other thing is emphasis. We play G dominant because we want a certain emphasis different from C major, right? So playing diatonically within the key doesn’t always set things up in the right way. In this sense the CST approach has some idea, it just overcomplicates it a little more than necessary. We don’t need to think of three ii v I scales, just two with a voice leading connection of some type, for instance.

    As far as hearing my playing goes, I've posted a bunch of mp3s.
    Where? Clearly been hanging out on the wrong threads.

  30. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    The other thing is emphasis. We play G dominant because we want a certain emphasis different from C major, right? So playing diatonically within the key doesn’t always set things up in the right way. In this sense the CST approach has some idea, it just overcomplicates it a little more than necessary. We don’t need to think of three ii v I scales, just two with a voice leading connection of some type, for instance.

  31. #180

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    On a Little Jazz thread (to demo the sound). And, the Showcase thread. Some others.

    I attached one from the most recent gig. BTW, that's the Little Jazz facing at about a 45 degree angle from the recorder. Big party. Loud enough that I had to shout to the pianist (who was a few feet away) in between songs.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    On the guitar working on stuff in position is like learning the keys.

    The other thing is emphasis. We play G dominant because we want a certain emphasis different from C major, right? So playing diatonically within the key doesn’t always set things up in the right way. In this sense the CST approach has some idea, it just overcomplicates it a little more than necessary. We don’t need to think of three ii v I scales, just two with a voice leading connection of some type, for instance.
    .
    Some great players think about position. I think I recall Jimmy Bruno explaining that he starts a solo in one position and then moves up to the next one. My apologies to Jimmy if I am inadvertently misquoting him.

    I noticed, some years back, that if I was playing in the key of C, I didn't have to think about anything but that. I knew, instantly, where all the "white keys" are on the guitar (that came from learning to read early). So, if I wanted to play those notes, I could do it anywhere and move anywhere on the neck. I had, previously, practiced a couple of approaches to scales (Warren Nunes and Chuck Wayne's), but that didn't matter. If the notes you want, in effect, light up like LEDs on the fingerboard, you don't need to worry about position or diagrams or anything like that, unless you're trying to play them faster than you can think. That's a real weakness of my approach compared to pattern based approaches. Of course, as your facility on the instrument improves the only thing that matters (at least in my approach) is the line in your mind and the ability of your fingers to find the notes without you having to get involved.

    I have a clearer memory of Jimmy Bruno demonstrating why thinking of the three different modes in a ii V I makes no sense. His demo involved playing the same cool sounding line over each of the chords. To me, it's about hearing the movement. Dm7 has a C. G7 has a B. If you want to outline the change in a very vanilla way, that's a useful thing to know. When the G7 gives way to C, the transition is F to E and C to B. You don't have to play those notes, but those movements are what makes the harmony what it is. So, you don't have to think about three scales. You don't even have to think about two. An alternative is simply thinking about C tonal center, the chord tones, and adjusting for the flow of the harmony as noted above.

    An argument I've read is that thinking about the modes helps you get the chord tones on the strong beats. To me, that introduces unwanted rigidity. It's not wrong, but can't a player be expected to do that by ear? And, if the player can't, maybe the strategy should be more listening and more copying of good lines, singing or playing them - rather than a verbal rule.

  33. #182

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    All of Me is a very vertical tune of course. Things like Lady be Good have more leeway. At least to my ears.
    .[/QUOTE]

    I hadn't occurred to me to think about Lady Be Good in a different way than I think about All of Me.

    What follows is about vanilla flavored soloing.

    Lady Be Good starts with Gmaj7/C7/Gmaj7 C7/ then two 3625's in G.

    To me, it's G tonal center for the first bar. Bar 2 doesn't quite fit, and the movement that hits my ear is B to Bb. As if it's Gmaj7 to Gm7. So, if I'm trying to play a simple line, I might include that. If I had to think about scales (while playing, I wouldn't) it would be G Ionian to Gmelmin, but I would also realize that there's an issue with F vs F#. The 3625's are all, to me, G tonal center, but there is one note that has to be accounted for, the G# in E7. The rest are in the key.

    The bridge is in C with a ii V transition. Dm7 G7 C. Most striking movement is C to B. And, then, as the chord changes to Cmaj7, F to E.

    The second chord of the bridge is C#dim7. In tunes of a certain age, that's often a C to C# movement in the bass. The chord is C# E G Bb. So, you have to adjust C to C# and the B to Bb too. That gets you in the ballpark and you can fill things in by ear, or use diminished or 7b9.

    After another G there's a minor ii V in Em. I tend to think about that as Em tonal center, which is the same set of notes as Gmajor. F#m7b5 is F# A C E. Those notes are contained within the tonal center. If you play in Em tonal center it will work -- you may want to be careful where you place the chord tones - some players talk about putting the chord tones on the strong beats.

    B7b9 is B D# F# A C. One note requires adjustment. D# gives the sound of the chord. D can sound pretty good because you get b9 and #9, which usually works. The E note might be worth being careful about, because it can give a suspended sound to the B dominant which you might not want. Thus, you can play in Em tonal center, but you lower the root. There are may other approaches - this one is very plain.

    The rest of the bridge is E-7 A7 Am7 D7, which is all roughly in G tonal center. The exception is C# against the A7 which is the only chord tone outside of the tonal center.

    All of this can be translated into Greek. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

    Way too much detail. But, that's the way I learned how do deal with this sort of tune, in case it's of interest to anyone.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-25-2020 at 05:18 AM.

  34. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    All of this can be translated from Greek. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
    here, i fixed your post for you

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    here, i fixed your post for you
    I tried to post a reply to this in Greek, but the site wouldn't take it. Not a joke.

    So, I have proof that my post wasn't in Greek, because you can see it.

  36. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    I hadn't occurred to me to think about Lady Be Good in a different way than I think about All of Me.

    What follows is about vanilla flavored soloing.

    Lady Be Good starts with Gmaj7/C7/Gmaj7 C7/ then two 3625's in G.

    To me, it's G tonal center for the first bar. Bar 2 doesn't quite fit, and the movement that hits my ear is B to Bb. As if it's Gmaj7 to Gm7. So, if I'm trying to play a simple line, I might include that. If I had to think about scales (while playing, I wouldn't) it would be G Ionian to Gmelmin, but I would also realize that there's an issue with F vs F#. The 3625's are all, to me, G tonal center, but there is one note that has to be accounted for, the G# in E7. The rest are in the key.

    The bridge is in C with a ii V transition. Dm7 G7 C. Most striking movement is C to B. And, then, as the chord changes to Cmaj7, F to E.

    The second chord of the bridge is C#dim7. In tunes of a certain age, that's often a C to C# movement in the bass. The chord is C# E G Bb. So, you have to adjust C to C# and the B to Bb too. That gets you in the ballpark and you can fill things in by ear, or use diminished or 7b9.

    After another G there's a minor ii V in Em. I tend to think about that as Em tonal center, which is the same set of notes as Gmajor. F#m7b5 is F# A C E. Those notes are contained within the tonal center. If you play in Em tonal center it will work -- you may want to be careful where you place the chord tones - some players talk about putting the chord tones on the strong beats.

    B7b9 is B D# F# A C. One note requires adjustment. D# gives the sound of the chord. D can sound pretty good because you get b9 and #9, which usually works. The E note might be worth being careful about, because it can give a suspended sound to the B dominant which you might not want. Thus, you can play in Em tonal center, but you lower the root. There are may other approaches - this one is very plain.

    The rest of the bridge is E-7 A7 Am7 D7, which is all roughly in G tonal center. The exception is C# against the A7 which is the only chord tone outside of the tonal center.

    All of this can be translated into Greek. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

    Way too much detail. But, that's the way I learned how do deal with this sort of tune, in case it's of interest to anyone.
    OK, look at the Lester Young solo and see what I mean by leeway. Prez uses chromatics that create motion, but not always the same ones as you would expect from the written changes.

    Accompaniment wise Basie often plays C6, allowing Prez to be a little more diatonic with his soloing. Also G6 means that you can be more open with major chords. This is the way people used to play back then. It sounds better when you use blues phrases as well as major pentatonic.

    Prez uses a lot of blues and also tends to articulate the II7 chord (as a typical swing era sub VIm6) He also uses the 6-#5-5 line cliche.

    Also dim7 is often not articulated.

    You find a lot of these practices with Parker too, who is building on this key centric bluesy approach (but with more tonicisation to my ears.)

    Solo transcription is for Bb instruments so think up a tone:



    And that makes sense because all of these changes can be found in various versions of a blues.

    All of Me, not so much, right? It has more temporary key centres, but let me find an example and see what the swing era guys would do. My guess would be focus heavily on the Dm and C...
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-25-2020 at 06:13 AM.

  37. #186

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    Lady Be Good is just a 8-bar blues with a bridge.

    Bird's famous solo:


  38. #187

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    Ok so a brief look at this (much later solo) seems to bear that out. The changes are more clearly expressed, but then they last for longer so register less as passing chords in the way that the changes of LBG do



    a really important point is that Lester’s solo sounds like an ornamentation of the melody (it comes naturally out of the melody statement.) So that harmony is ‘built in’ as the melody is a very vertical expression of the changes.

    Apparently Lester didn’t like knowing what the chords were.

    I’m picking Prez btw because for me he is the preeminent key centric improviser. More recent improvisers tend to work more out of the chords.

    (Also why wouldn’t you just listen to Prez?)

  39. #188

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    Btw the vanilla changes of LBG are



    You see all sorts of variants on these, but that’s the basic version

    The B7 Em you mention is an ornamentation of the basic progression

    As I mention above the classic Lester recording actually simplifies the changes further.

    it’s really important to be able to discern what is ornamentation and what is structure. Which walls you can knock through and which are load bearing. Otherwise you are just realising a chord chart.

  40. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    On a Little Jazz thread (to demo the sound). And, the Showcase thread. Some others.

    I attached one from the most recent gig. BTW, that's the Little Jazz facing at about a 45 degree angle from the recorder. Big party. Loud enough that I had to shout to the pianist (who was a few feet away) in between songs.
    Right on listening to this, I can hear a lot of Prez haha.

  41. #190

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    Feels like we're discussing different things.

    With regard to a vanilla sounding chorus:

    The point I'm trying to make, and forgive me if the horse I'm beating is long dead, is that you can think tonal center and chord tones (as you make your melodic statement) -- and end up with the same notes as if you think scale/mode for individual chords. And, I'm suggesting that the advantage to thinking this way is that you focus on the notes which are actually producing the sound of the chord change. You can get to the same exact spot using mode names, if you prefer.

    Objections to this sometimes focus on which notes are on the strong beat, but I think that's best done by ear.

    I don't understand the criticism that this approach will result in a novice-quality solo. I think that depends on the ability of the soloist. I don't see anything wrong with the approach. I hear it in Paul Desmond. You can read it in Warren Nunes' books. And, it's exactly the way Warren played.

    With respect to more adventurous sounds:

    I won't review the various approaches used for more sophisticated sounds. But, I do think about this ... typically, a good, melodic, outside line would be a good inside line against different harmony. So, for example, if you decide to play outside by side-slipping you might play a line in C# against a C background. That line, though, should sound consonant were you to play it against a C# background.

    A simple example. Suppose the chord is Cmaj7 and you want a lydian sound. You can think C lydian. Or you can think Tonal Center G and Gmaj7 or Bm7 or Em9 or ???. When the chord changes you hear which notes change to make the first chord into the second one - and you can change them, if you wish, typically by a half step, or maybe a step.

    At some point, I think that CST starts becoming more efficient for finding adventurous sounds, but, speaking for myself, I learn new sounds laboriously, one at a time. So, to take an extreme example (based on a post on a different forum) advice on how to combine triad pairs into hextonics and play them over different bass notes -- all of which is then juxtaposed over different harmony, well, it's not that helpful to me.

  42. #191

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    what you were talking about didn’t sound like CST. It sounded like key centric soloing. Which is why I started taking about Lester. Paul Desmond maybe. I’m more familiar with Getz and I think that’s how he does it. This is a more common approach among Sax players than guitarists for obvious reasons.

    I honestly don’t have a problem with this or that way thinking about anything provided it comes from the music. The problem I have is when people try to make up music from theory or because they read some shit in a book. That doesn’t work, unless you have the roots down.

    So a lot of these threads have that kind of vibe. ‘What notes do I play on this?’ And people indulge it.

    but yeah you know how to navigate a minor 2 5 1 effortlessly as possible if you are looking at the key.

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    what you were talking about didn’t sound like CST. It sounded like key centric soloing. Which is why I started taking about Lester. Paul Desmond maybe. I’m more familiar with Getz and I think that’s how he does it. This is a more common approach among Sax players than guitarists for obvious reasons.

    I honestly don’t have a problem with this or that way thinking about anything provided it comes from the music. The problem I have is when people try to make up music from theory or because they read some shit in a book. That doesn’t work, unless you have the roots down.

    So a lot of these threads have that kind of vibe. ‘What notes do I play on this?’ And people indulge it.

    but yeah you know how to navigate a minor 2 5 1 effortlessly as possible if you are looking at the key.
    To me, it's thinking about tonal center, chord tones and how the chord tones change as the harmony moves forward.

    Is that "key-centric" soloing? It's not just tonal center. The distinction is that you just don't think key of C for Dm7 G7 Cmaj7. Rather, you think, I'm in the key of C, and I'm going to be aware of the chord tones of each chord in the ii V I. That allows you to get the chord tones on the strong beats, if you want to. It also means you're acutely aware of the notes that change from one chord to the next as the harmony progresses.

    To do this, you have to know the notes in the tonal center and the notes in the chords, both automatically. And, not just on Dm7. You need Gbm7b5 to be just as automatic. I honestly don't know if most jazz guitarists can do this - or want/need to. From reading on-line forums, I see more about fingering patterns and grips and less about individual notes.

    I'm well aware that great players do things every which way.

  44. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    To me, it's thinking about tonal center, chord tones and how the chord tones change as the harmony moves forward.

    Is that "key-centric" soloing? It's not just tonal center. The distinction is that you just don't think key of C for Dm7 G7 Cmaj7. Rather, you think, I'm in the key of C, and I'm going to be aware of the chord tones of each chord in the ii V I. That allows you to get the chord tones on the strong beats, if you want to. It also means you're acutely aware of the notes that change from one chord to the next as the harmony progresses.
    Yeah so by Key Centric I mean this - instead of thinking, for instance, b9 on a V7 chord, you think b6 in the key, right? Instead of a third on a II7 chord it’s #4, and so on. That’s what you mean right? So Key centric instead of chord centric (which is how most analysis is done it seems to me.)

    This is I think quite a smart way of doing things because you actually realise quite quickly a lot of chords have the same accidentals in them and you can unify a load of diverse things. A line on a IVm will also do on a V7b9 and a IIm7b5 and III7 and a bVII7 and so on.

    i did a video about it ages ago. It’s actually something I realised from playing things on the piano where it is incredibly obvious and probably doesn’t need mentioning (actually it’s something I was doing before I got into Barry properly.) But it translates back to guitar well enough if you know your degrees.

    To do this, you have to know the notes in the tonal center and the notes in the chords, both automatically. And, not just on Dm7. You need Gbm7b5 to be just as automatic. I honestly don't know if most jazz guitarists can do this - or want/need to. From reading on-line forums, I see more about fingering patterns and grips and less about individual notes.
    I don’t see it as that hard? I just use numerical degrees. Everything was in c major on the piano cos I’m shit haha. Naming notes is not necessary although I can do that too. It’s all movable do to me...

    Yeah, guitarists go out of the grips. They always have.

    I'm well aware that great players do things every which way.
    well as Barry said ‘the more ways you have of thinking of a tune, the more things you have to play on it’

    My beef and others on this page was never with CST per se. It’s just that’s all a lot of people come into contact with and there’s loads of helpful approaches. CST as it is commonly framed encourages you to think of each chord as an island rather than part of an overall tonality. Sometimes that’s a fun thing to use. But it doesn’t make for the most fluent melodies.

  45. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    I don’t see it as that hard? I just use numerical degrees.
    Permit me to climb into the weeds on this one.

    At one point, if I saw a Cmaj7, the fingerboard lit up in two colors. The chord tones were in blue and the tonal center, C, was in red. Meaning, I could instantly identify every chord tone on the neck and every note in the tonal center. Just like the fingerboard lit up.

    Eventually, I realized that I couldn't do it for, say, D#m7b5. At least not instantly. I had to think about it. I could find the notes using a memorized geometric pattern, but, if the tune was anywhere north of dead slow, I'd probably be reduced to playing some shape and, often, starting on the root, so that I could get oriented. I could not instantly name the chord tones. I could for many chords, e.g. Cmaj7, but not all basic types in 12 keys and their enharmonic equivalents. At a nice brisk tempo, you do not have time to think, oh, D#something is the same as Ebsomething and I know it in Eb. Rather, D# becomes its own thing to learn.

    I also realized that I liked knowing the chord tones of the chords I use. It helped with soloing and it helped me construct chordal lines in comping by knowing which notes were changing and which were not, from one chord to the next. I found that, once I knew all the chord tones, I could start on any one of them, any finger, any string, any fret. One was as good as another, which freed me up from having to resort to pattern based thinking. I suspect that Jim Hall was a master of this.

    I then started drilling myself on chord tones and I still do it. IRealPro is the tool I use. Everything in 12 keys and I slow it down when I miss one.

    The idea that a b9 on the V7 is the b6 in the key has never crossed my mind in that specific way. Of course, I am aware that in C we're talking about Ab. I am aware that I can play Fm against G7, but if I want the b9 4 and b7 I don't need to think about Fm to find them. Or if we're discussing playing an Fm lick against G7, I hear the voice of my teacher saying "No Licks!! Make melody!"

    Aside: Some months ago I transcribed Desmond's Bossa Antigua. I had resisted it because the head seemed incredibly long. I finally realized that the tune was 32 bars. I'd mistaken his first two choruses for more of the head. That's how melodic he was while improvising. To me, that's the goal.

    So, I'm curious. The foregoing doesn't seem so easy to me. It's a good deal of work. Why doesn't this strike you as hard?

  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Permit me to climb into the weeds on this one.

    At one point, if I saw a Cmaj7, the fingerboard lit up in two colors. The chord tones were in blue and the tonal center, C, was in red. Meaning, I could instantly identify every chord tone on the neck and every note in the tonal center. Just like the fingerboard lit up.

    Eventually, I realized that I couldn't do it for, say, D#m7b5. At least not instantly. I had to think about it. I could find the notes using a memorized geometric pattern, but, if the tune was anywhere north of dead slow, I'd probably be reduced to playing some shape and, often, starting on the root, so that I could get oriented. I could not instantly name the chord tones. I could for many chords, e.g. Cmaj7, but not all basic types in 12 keys and their enharmonic equivalents. At a nice brisk tempo, you do not have time to think, oh, D#something is the same as Ebsomething and I know it in Eb. Rather, D# becomes its own thing to learn.

    I also realized that I liked knowing the chord tones of the chords I use. It helped with soloing and it helped me construct chordal lines in comping by knowing which notes were changing and which were not, from one chord to the next. I found that, once I knew all the chord tones, I could start on any one of them, any finger, any string, any fret. One was as good as another, which freed me up from having to resort to pattern based thinking. I suspect that Jim Hall was a master of this.

    I then started drilling myself on chord tones and I still do it. IRealPro is the tool I use. Everything in 12 keys and I slow it down when I miss one.

    The idea that a b9 on the V7 is the b6 in the key has never crossed my mind in that specific way. Of course, I am aware that in C we're talking about Ab. I am aware that I can play Fm against G7, but if I want the b9 4 and b7 I don't need to think about Fm to find them. Or if we're discussing playing an Fm lick against G7, I hear the voice of my teacher saying "No Licks!! Make melody!"

    Aside: Some months ago I transcribed Desmond's Bossa Antigua. I had resisted it because the head seemed incredibly long. I finally realized that the tune was 32 bars. I'd mistaken his first two choruses for more of the head. That's how melodic he was while improvising. To me, that's the goal.

    So, I'm curious. The foregoing doesn't seem so easy to me. It's a good deal of work. Why doesn't this strike you as hard?
    Well from a theory point of view the key thing completely obvious if you play the piano even a little bit, how chord tones and extensions relate to the prevailing key. I examined the common progressions in the key, played a few simple standards, and looked at how the notes related to the key. And then took that knowledge back to the guitar. Took an afternoon.

    i remember thinking ‘so this is why pianists like scales!’

    Or you could write them out.

    And the you can practice singing the notes, and transcribe and see what’s going on from that perspective.

    Anyway the description of your process a bit purist for me. I mean Jim Hall plays an Abmadd9 arp in the key of Eb as he does in his solo on Without a Song, I’m going to recognise that as a musical object. I’ll have to fight myself not to; and I don’t have the energy or time to do that lol.

    After all we hear and conceptualise in gestalts, not elements. Music is a language.

    I too admire the more melodic style of playing. I would say this:

    I don’t know about Paul Desmond but I would point out that for many of the older players there was a lot of compositional refinement going on until the perfect chorus was achieved. Barry Harris suggests your compose, even write out, your first chorus, for instance. His improvisation workshops actually demonstrate a process of composition.

    This is a venerable and honourable tradition in jazz even though it gets disparaged by the improvisation fundamentalists.

    (I would also say composing is also a gateway into better improvisation.)

    I love Bill Evans but perhaps this navel gazing obsession with process we all like to pick apart has caused an introversion in the music that is really alienating to everyone. A pursuit of a romantic ideal. I mean who cares? Just make music haha.

  47. #196

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    Anyway this is all shooting the shit, and talking for the sake of talking, philosophising, because I like the way you play and you clearly have your thing...

  48. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    I also realized that I liked knowing the chord tones of the chords I use. It helped with soloing and it helped me construct chordal lines in comping by knowing which notes were changing and which were not, from one chord to the next. I found that, once I knew all the chord tones, I could start on any one of them, any finger, any string, any fret. One was as good as another, which freed me up from having to resort to pattern based thinking. I suspect that Jim Hall was a master of this.

    So, I'm curious. The foregoing doesn't seem so easy to me. It's a good deal of work. Why doesn't this strike you as hard?
    just shooting the sh1t here .....

    its interesting to me that different people do music SO differently....
    me for example
    the note names don't mean much to me
    I'm aware of them for the root movement of the chords in the tune
    and the key centre , and the new key center ,
    and when the tune modulates I think "ok we're going to Ab now"

    But other than that ....
    I don't consciously think of note names when improvising at all
    i think I think of sounds as intervals and shapes on the guitar ....
    ie. I'm just playing sounds (or trying to play those sounds)

    its its more like when I was young and only knew the blues and pentatonic
    type stuff on Rock songs I would just play that stuff by ear

    i stayed with that method now but I do it on the major scale ,
    it's relative minor , a bit of mm / ALT type stuff on the V7 chords
    maybe a bit of HWdim etc

    I experiment with different harmony things , steal harmonic moves
    from different songs etc
    thats about it .....

  49. #198

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    Yeah I’m unaware of the note names too. It’s all relative, functional to me. That’s the way it works for me ear training as well... I can write out music that way too. Just pick the tonic, write out the key and use the degrees. You don’t have to think of the note names at every point. Just write out the shape.

    (of course people who can read music really well don’t seem to think in note names either. They read shapes. They can tell you the note name of course if asked, but that’s not what’s going on in the moment.)

    But ear training isn’t for me identical to playing guitar by ear. If I hear a phrase my fingers sort of sense where the notes are. It’s not conscious and I don’t think it’s visual for me like ‘lighting up’ either.

    to me that’s the thing that I really want to work on. Just getting that link nice and tight. I think if you work on that and your conventional major and minor scales to get your fingerings comfortable, and listen to and imitate melodies and phrases *a lot*, you are emulating a lot of what the older generation players did. You don’t have to regurgitate endless solos, you just get used to playing by ear and playing flexibly.

    For instance even someone like Parker is really quite diatonic much of the time, within the key. Listen to him play on a rhythm tune and the chromatics are quite significant.

    Music is more modal now - maybe, so if you want to muck around with more modern music it makes sense to look into it as that’s what all the cats learned at jazz school. But you still have a lot of this in key old school playing among guys like Moreno and Adam Rogers to act as a grounding element.

  50. #199

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    With time on my hands and curiosity about how others approach this sort of thing, forgive the following tome.

    When I know the tune and can feel the changes, I might not think about anything. The ear connects to the hands with no interference from me.

    But, then again, I might. I recently played Lady Be Good on a gig. I was familiar with at least the opening of tune although I couldn't remember having played it before, and I don't even know why I know it. I brought up the chart on my phone - I confess to liking the security of a chart. First chord sets G as the tonal center and then it goes to C7. Most likely, I consciously thought, "B becomes Bb". And, if the tune had been called in G#, I'd have thought "C becomes B" (with apologies to those who would, correctly, think Cb).

    Is there an advantage to thinking this way? Well, at a minimum, it probably beats not thinking at all and risking clams. Is it better than thinking some other way? That's the issue I'm thinking about in this thread. I didn't know another way to do it. What I like about my approach is that it makes the entire fingerboard, every relevant note, obvious. I don't have to think about position or about fingering. All the notes light up (chord tones in one color, tonal center in another, if there is one) and I can access any one of them as easily as any other. It's also an advantage because I could never derive any benefit from all the books and articles I've seen with dots on a fingerboard diagram. I remember Arnie Berle's articles in GP which showed that kind of diagram month after month. Did anyone actually learn and use that kind of material? I don't know, but I do know that it didn't work at all for me.

    What Christian has described as a Key-centric approach works for All of Me, but I don't know that it would work so well, at least for me, for a Toninho Horta or Andre Mehmari tune where the key center is unclear. For those tunes, I know, immediately (or back into the shed) the notes of each chord, by name. The voicings are usually extended, so that's 5 notes. Maybe 6. The important ones are the ones that are changing from the previous chord and to the subsequent chord (or further backward or forward). Pick your 5th 7th and 9th(s) avoid the wrong 3rd, and adjust by ear. That gives you a palette. But, you still have to feel the flow of the harmony and make a melody with those notes.

    How does a key centric or shape based or CST based player deal with it?

    Here's an example of a more complex tune. I just opened my bandbook at random and found a tune with these changes.

    Cm69 // Gmaj9/D // Bbsus13 // Ebmaj9, D7b9 G9 // Dbm69. Quarter note is 144 in 4/4.

    Quick impressions, as if somebody put it on my stand and counted it off 10 seconds later and I had the first solo.

    Seems like the safety net is Cm or Ebmaj, three flats. But, it's an A in that chord, not a Bb. Also, the m69 suggests a tonal center of one flat -- Eb. Aka C mel min.

    Note the B over the Gmaj9 and G9. That's in Cmelmin, but I probably wouldn't have leaned on a B natural in Bar 1 of this progression. More likely, I'd have started with the melody note, which is a D, held over the first two chords.

    Gmaj9 to Bbsus is a G triad moving a half step up. That thought is more pattern based.

    Back to Eb.

    The D7b9/A to G9 is almost a V (or tritone sub) going to I. The Eb stays and resolves to D. Otherwise, it looks like an Ab9 going to G. Or, an Ebmaj7 going to G9 with the Bb to B movement seeming most essential. But also noticing that F will work whereas G will have to move. But, most likely, I'll play it as if it was a D7 To Gmaj, and adjust to include the Eb against the D. Also notice that the F goes from being a #9 to a b7

    Don't worry about the Dbm69, it's two quick beats heading to Cm69. The melody note in the head is a G natural there. Side slip if necessary.

    After all of those thoughts, I looked at the second page and discovered solo changes.

    Dadd9/F# // Fsus13 F13 // Bbmaj7 Bbmaj7#5 // E13#9 // Eb lyd // D13#9 // Db13#11 Db7#11b9 // Calt // Fsus13 // Em7b5 Aalt //

    Much easier!! Not. How do you approach these? I'm going to give my immediate, no time to prepare, thoughts.

    Looks like D to Cm for the first two bars. Will need to move the Bb to A to get the Fsus13 to F13, or stay on other notes in F13.

    Bar 3 is in Bb, but the F rises to F# -- and Bbmaj7#5 is a D triad over a bass note. So, I could think Dm to Dmaj for that bar.

    The Dmaj triad then leads to E13#9. The notes in that chord hint at a Db triad with some other notes. But, I like Db because all I need to do is slip down a half step from the D triad. It may have a G on top.

    Eb lyd seems like it might be a whole step back up. An Eb triad with A on top.

    D13#9 is next. I just played that voicing with an E root. I played it as a Db triad. Maybe I should think B triad? Or maybe D triad. I can't figure it out quickly, so I play chord tones.

    So far, I haven't been able to conjure the sound of these changes in my mind. So, trying to get through by ear isn't going to work.

    The rest looks vaguely like a resolution to Dm (although it's actually a false cadence).

    After all of that, I'd probably play my solo by reading the melody and embellishing it with chord tones and whatever else my ear could give me.

    Then, at home, try to figure out why this harmony makes sense.

    Anybody recognize the tune? It's Arabesca by Chico Pinheiro.

    Sorry for the long post.

  51. #200
    The Barry Harris basic scale application on | E-7b5 A7b9 | :
    Play the C7 scale descending from the Bb to C#, which is the 3rd of A7 .
    (Coincidently C# is also the same note as the b9 of C7. C7b9 is relative to both E-7b5 and A7b9)
    (This beautiful classic descending pool of notes is also relative to D harmonic minor)