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  1. #1

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    For some reason I'm having difficulty with what would seem like an ordinary minor ii V7. I've seen a few different interpretations of this measure and this one sounds closest to my perception of how the song goes. I'm playing it as Ebmi7b5 > A7b9 and as close as I can come is Bb harmonic minor. Seems OK but somehow I still feel like I'm missing something. Maybe because it "resolves" to Dmi7? I would very much appreciate any observations or suggestions.

    Everything Happens to Me: measure 5 giving me fits!-everything-happens-jpg
    Last edited by buduranus2; 02-25-2020 at 05:50 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Try Bdim7-->Cm7b5 (i.e. Ebm6) on that bar.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Try Bdim7-->Cm7b5 (i.e. Ebm6) on that bar.
    Thanks. I'll give it a try.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Why? That's not what it says. The melody's a straight run up an Ab diminished chord, i.e. Ab7b9. So Ebm7 - Ab7b9 is better, right?

    That means it just moves down a half-step: Ebm/Ab7 - Dm/G7 into Cm.

    You can play lots of things over the first few notes (F and G), like Cm7, EbM7 or Bo, but probably Ebm7 fits the pattern best.

    Listen to a You Tube version. It's nice and slow, shouldn't be too difficult.
    I like the way the Ebmi7b5 sounds in that spot. Introduces some nice tension and seems to flow more naturally to the Ab7b9. Besides, I'm thinking in the context of improv here, where we can take more liberties. May be "incorrect" but feels "right" to me.
    Last edited by buduranus2; 02-26-2020 at 09:50 AM.

  6. #5

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    Spent the last few minutes trying to figure out why the comments made no sense,
    then noticed the "2" in the tile upon closer inspection is actually a "5"...

    Why is that chord in bar 2 labeled C# rather than Db?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    For some reason I'm having difficulty with what would seem like an ordinary minor ii V7. I've seen a few different interpretations of this measure and this one sounds closest to my perception of how the song goes. I'm playing it as Ebmi7b5 > A7b9 and as close as I can come is Bb harmonic minor. Seems OK but somehow I still feel like I'm missing something. Maybe because it "resolves" to Dmi7? I would very much appreciate any observations or suggestions.

    Everything Happens to Me: measure 5 giving me fits!-everything-happens-jpg
    Would it help to think of it as Eb diminished?
    Cminor to Eb diminished to Dminor?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #7

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    I hear it as a minor third movement, Cm7 to Ebm7, then going down a half step to Dm7. That can be reharmonized in a number of ways.
    For soloing my ear takes me from Ebmaj (C aol) to Db maj (Eb dorian). Then Dm7 (aol, maybe).

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Would it help to think of it as Eb diminished?
    Cminor to Eb diminished to Dminor?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yeah, I can play an Eb diminished arpeggio over it and it works. That's contained in Bb harmonic minor, so maybe I had the (more likely "an") answer and was searching for another way to look at it.

  10. #9

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  11. #10

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    Guys, it’s an F b9. ii-V-iii-VI-ii-V-I

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    Yeah, I can play an Eb diminished arpeggio over it and it works. That's contained in Bb harmonic minor, so maybe I had the (more likely "an") answer and was searching for another way to look at it.
    Don't overthink it. Just play it !!

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Don't overthink it. Just play it !!
    Well, yes, of course. At the same time this is an opportunity for me to add to or reinforce my acquisition and application of theory. It'll help me the next time I encounter a similar example.

    I have a tab open to that page right now. That said, would you be kind enough to explain the concept in the context of the instant example?

  14. #13

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    In the unlikely event this is helpful ...

    Play the chords slowly with a looper or backing track or something.

    When you get to the change you're not sure of, try all 12 notes. 24 notes if you want to include the next higher octave (bear in mind that the notes an octave up can work differently). Pick out the best 7 or 8 and then google "scale finder", if you have to, and see what scale it is.

    Add that to the theory basket.

    The benefit is that those are the notes you like best.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    In the unlikely event this is helpful ...

    Play the chords slowly with a looper or backing track or something.

    When you get to the change you're not sure of, try all 12 notes. 24 notes if you want to include the next higher octave (bear in mind that the notes an octave up can work differently). Pick out the best 7 or 8 and then google "scale finder", if you have to, and see what scale it is.

    Add that to the theory basket.

    The benefit is that those are the notes you like best.
    Thanks, that's helpful. I think "the notes I like" are from Bb harmonic minor, as I mentioned in my OP. I'll take your advice and drill down a little deeper with my looper this evening.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    Thanks, that's helpful. I think "the notes I like" are from Bb harmonic minor, as I mentioned in my OP. I'll take your advice and drill down a little deeper with my looper this evening.
    My taste is similar. I used the Ab instead of the A against Ab7b9, but I didn't lean on it. Either way works.

    I didn't think about it consciously, but, Ebm7 to Ab7 is a ii V in Db (it doesn't have to be a b9, even though your chart says that). Two beats worth.

    If you play it in Db, you'll hear the chord change, but you won't hear the b9. If you like the b9 you can play an A.

    How would I think about it? Generally, I think "tonal center with the modifications needed to account for the specific chord voicings".

    So, in this case, I might be thinking Dbmajor with an A added to it, or replacing the Ab. And, in reality, I'd make the adjustments by ear.

    I don't find it especially helpful to think Dbmaj, vs. Eb dorian, vs 5th mode Bbharmmin, vs. Abhalfwholedim vs. ??? --- all to describe a change of a single note.

    But, I'm pretty sure my approach conflicts with the conventional wisdom -- and there are great players (maybe most of them) who didn't do it my way.
    .
    I understand that some players have mastered that and gotten comfortable enough with the nomenclature that it's useful.

  17. #16

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    Think of the turnaround at the end of "All of Me"

    C - Eb diminished - Dm7 - G7

    This is essentially the same thing

    C minor - Ab7(b9) or Eb diminished - Dm7 - G7

    You can also think of it as a sort of suspension. The Eb minor is like a suspended chord which resolves to D minor.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Think of the turnaround at the end of "All of Me"

    C - Eb diminished - Dm7 - G7

    This is essentially the same thing

    C minor - Ab7(b9) or Eb diminished - Dm7 - G7

    You can also think of it as a sort of suspension. The Eb minor is like a suspended chord which resolves to D minor.
    Yeah, the Eb diminished keeps coming up, which takes me back to Bb harmonic minor. That said, your comment got me thinking about displacement, side-slipping, the Dameron turnaround etc. Easy to get lost in the weeds but fun for me like doing a crossword puzzle. Ultimately, though, here's the answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Don't overthink it. Just play it !!
    I spent some time with the looper last night, and after a while I seemed to intuitively play what I wanted. Not entirely sure I could tell you exactly which scale(s) I was using, but, as you suggest, that's not necessarily the point. I think, ultimately, I just treated it as any other minor ii V7 with some extra awareness about the leading tones to Dmi7. Appreciate you!

  19. #18

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    - It’s not a minor ii V. It’s a major ii v with an altered V

    - The b9 in the chart comes from the A in the melody (which is a passing anyway cos it goes straight to Bb.) you are under no obligation to express it your lines

    - if I was soloing on this I would probably only play a Ebm7 going to Dm7. This is not an uncommon situation - think of East of the Sun and Darn that Dream, for instance.

    - resolution is the important bit to practice. That’s why you have trouble. If you are joining up chords in the right way, Ebm7 Ab7 Dm is going to be more challenging than the familiar Ebm7 Ab7 Db - However - if you have a line that resolves to the 3rd, F it will work over either.

    dont make a meal out of the destination chord - one note will do

  20. #19

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    Also it’s a common sub for Ebo7 Dm7- but in a few tunes the sub gets referenced in the melody.

    not here. This is clearly a reharm because we have Eb, Gb and A which along with the harmonic minor style jump you noticed, says Ebo7 to me.

    most people are crap at soloing on functional diminished chords though and it’s kind of an old fashioned sound - hence the boppy sub.

    ‘if it’s not a ii-V I refuse to understand it’ :-)

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    - It’s not a minor ii V. It’s a major ii v with an altered V

    - The b9 in the chart comes from the A in the melody (which is a passing anyway cos it goes straight to Bb.) you are under no obligation to express it your lines

    - if I was soloing on this I would probably only play a Ebm7 going to Dm7. This is not an uncommon situation - think of East of the Sun and Darn that Dream, for instance.

    - resolution is the important bit to practice. That’s why you have trouble. If you are joining up chords in the right way, Ebm7 Ab7 Dm is going to be more challenging than the familiar Ebm7 Ab7 Db - However - if you have a line that resolves to the 3rd, F it will work over either.

    dont make a meal out of the destination chord - one note will do

    I love this line "dont make a meal out of the destination chord - one note will do".

    Well said.

  22. #21

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    one more thing

    in bar 5 try

    |Eb maj. Emin |

    i like it anyway ...

    edit it should have written
    |Eb maj. Eb min |
    Last edited by pingu; 03-06-2020 at 12:19 PM.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    one more thing

    in bar 5 try

    |Eb maj. Emin |

    i like it anyway ...
    How can I play Ebmaj if there's a Gb in the melody?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    How can I play Ebmaj if there's a Gb in the melody?
    oh god sorry .... typo

    should be
    |Eb maj. Ebmin |

    the Gb melody note occurs
    in the second half of the bar

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Try Bdim7-->Cm7b5 (i.e. Ebm6) on that bar.
    Yes, those are the correct changes for bar 5.