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Onward and/or upward!
For the month of February we will tackle Chapter 3 of GF's Jazz Improvisation: A Melodic Approach, and it's a biggie.
We will cover phrasing and articulation with an emphasis on incorporating the rest stroke, as well as a heap of melodic phrases related to the triads from Chapter 2, many of which are sort of a variation on a theme. We'll also start dipping our toes into GF's approach to substitution in order to get maximum mileage out of a simple framework.
We also get two -- count 'em, two! -- actual, bonafide standards to practice this stuff over: Hot Saw (aka So What) and the inappropriately apostrophised Three Bee's (aka Baubles, Bangles, and Beads). The former is a modal groove that everyone knows and loves, and the latter is a ii-V-I based tune that nobody has ever heard of. Both should be a breath of fresh air for those who weren't digging GF's original from the last chapter.
Let's do this.
Last edited by Jehu; 02-22-2020 at 03:47 PM.
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01-31-2020 06:02 PM
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As inspiration, here is The Man Himself showing us how it's done over Three Bee's (at 4:40):
... just to give an idea of where we should be by the end of the month.
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Originally Posted by Jehu
Really? Actually I didn't know it myself before I solved the enigma of Three Bees but then I found a version by Wes. Search for it on yt and you'll find quite a few interpretations by jazz masters like Jim Hall or Bill Evans for example. I noticed that it is often changed to a 4/4 meter.
Anyway: looking foward to all your contributions!
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Jehu, thanks for moving us along!
I'm in.
(And needed the push. ;o)
Here's a version of "Baubles" by Basie. My favorite version of it is by Benny Carter but I can't find that on YouTube.
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Well, I was partly joking, but seriously: Walk into a jam and call out "Baubles, Bangles, and Beads" and see what sorts of looks you get! Originally Posted by TOMMO
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I guessed you did. And you are most probably right about the jams but it's a series of II - V- I (VI) progressions that is ideal for practicing what has been learned so far. Originally Posted by Jehu
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Exercise 3.1
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Nicely done, Fep.
Must confess, I'm struggling. Was looking through the book last night and this morning and it suddenly struck me that I've already forgotten much of chapter 2. Was going through Ex 2.2 again and realised I couldn't recall the shapes for F#min and Emin (the two variations). Couldn't figure for the life of me how I'd ever managed to improvise over Elle...
So I'm doing some recap work before attempting Ch. 3.
Derek
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Keep at it, Derek. Just spend a few minutes each day drilling those shapes up and down the fretboard, and it will come. Originally Posted by digger
Everything builds on and reinforces what comes before, so I wouldn't panic too much about getting things perfect before moving on. (That said, the shapes are important to this method, so that's one thing I'd keep hacking away at until they're burned in.)
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The shapes are a bit unusually to me also. For me it's easier to just start a diatonic triad from any chord tone of the parent chord. You end up with the same notes that way and don't have to worry about shapes. But I'm still going to do the shapes, both ways actually, the authors way and my way. Originally Posted by digger
The shapes require extra thinking for me and make me feel a bit handcuffed...
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Good job, Frank! Originally Posted by fep
I'm trying to play this one without looking at the book and finding it difficult. (I have to think where to go next.) But I think the grunt work done here will pay off later. Major / relative minor is a foundational relationship and I shouldn't have to think about it in any key. But I'm not there yet...
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Here is Chapter 3
Chapter 3 vid
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Clean and smooth Frank! Well played. Originally Posted by fep
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Well done! I noticed that you played the descending F maj triplet with a different fingering - I don't like the jump from the 12th down to the 8th fret either. Originally Posted by Doublea A
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Really clean playing, well done Originally Posted by Doublea A
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Me too, I was thinking to myself the current chord name to help me keep track of the next chord. It's a bit of a mental exercise, e.g. I know I'm playing A maj7 right now, therefore I need to go through the cycle of 5th and the next chord is a D maj7. That is all going through my head while I'm playing. Add to that the line starts on the 6th of the chord (if you're thinking major chords). Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
It would be easier with different fingerings to just jump to a nearby 5th interval between lines which I'm able to do it without all that thinking. But the way this skips back and forth on the neck it forces me to mentally keep track.
I'm not sure we were suppose to run this whole cycle of 5th exercise in time as I did. After all, there are double bar lines at the end of each phrase.
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I think about all the chords in a particular key, especially the adjacent chords. Originally Posted by fep
C maj - D minor - E minor - F Major - G Major - A minor - B diminished
Bars 1 and 2 - D minor slides into E minor
Bar 3 - A minor slides into G major
Bar 6- G major slides into A minor
Bar 7 - D minor slides into E minor
Bars 9 and 10 - E minor slides into F major
Bars 10 and 11 - G major slides into F major
Bars 13 and 14 - A minor slides into B diminished and then from F major to G major to F major
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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My brain hurts...
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Okay, you guys are killing it and I wanted to at least show up. ;o)
Today I did this without looking at the book. I have to think about where to go next but I did this so much better than yesterday, I feel like I'm getting somewhere with this material. Mind you, this is far from perfect. But it's better than yesterday and that keeps me going.
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Exactly! But this may turn out to be something we do a lot of with Fewell's material and we'll marvel someday that this ever seemed awkward. Originally Posted by fep
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Nice, Mark! Sounding smooth and comfortable. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Thanks, Jay! I'm feeling more comfortable. Originally Posted by Jehu
Wish I had switched to a Tele long ago. (And to the Kodiak pick---it's not second-nature yet but the benefits outweigh the detriments for me.)
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Yes and yes - well done! Originally Posted by Jehu
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For me, the instructions for Fig 3.5 are for the purpose of analysis and understanding. These are the triads, this is where they are coming from, and so on. But in terms of actual application, I think the point of pp. 28-29 is to show that to get the Dorian colour, you can use not only the minor family (triad+extensions) that we've been using, but also the minor family a 5th above (4th below). This expands your palette. Originally Posted by digger
So for the Dmin "pool", as I've been calling it, you can also dip into the Amin pool. If you're playing in the Fmin pool, you could also dip into the Cmin pool to get that Dorian sound. If you look at Fig 3.5 with that in mind, it's really just alternating between the Dmin pool and the Amin pool.
Again, I think GF is trying to simplify our thinking in the moment, not complicate it. It's all a matter of perspective: To you, your brain hurts; but to me, it feels squishy and gelatinous.
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Sounds good Mark ! Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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A few notes on Exercise 3.1:
1. The fingerings were new to me but I did my best to adhere to GF's format.
2. I struggled mightily getting around the Circle.
3. Lots of thinking required, which usually indicates the need for more practice.
4. As a learning exercise, I stated the chords (Maj7/Min7) after each phrase.
5. Backing Track: Band In A Box. BPM: 104
6. Next Steps: I plan to review starting at Chapter 2 before diving into Exercise 3.2.
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Very good - you made an exercise sound like "real" music! Originally Posted by losaltosjoe
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Lovely job, losaltosjo. Very well played indeed.
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OK, here's my attempt at Ex. 3.1. I'm in two minds about how I'm doing. I think this sounds okay, but it's just a memory thing - a lick in different positions (and as my memory is so bad I still needed a hint sheet). I'm not applying any of the thinking that has been mentioned above in this thread. I'm not thinking major / minor triads, or anything other than this is a nice lick. So far, from this book, I've picked up that if I am faced with a Minor 7 chord I have a whole new way of playing over it that sounds really nice. And, of course, a way to do that playing. But it feels like I'm missing 99% of what I'm meant to be getting.
On the other hand, my new approach to learning jazz is to keep it simple, just to enjoy the sounds, and not to worry about the theory and all the clever stuff (yet). I need to learn melodies and get some jazz articulation in my playing. And from that perspective this is good stuff.
Maybe, in the future, a second go through the text will reveal all the stuff that I'm missing right now, and possibly then I'll be better positioned to understand and benefit from it.
Anyway, here's 3.1:
Cheers
Derek
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Well done, Derek!
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Somewhere, sometime, someone said, "make a pretty sound". ("somewhere, sometime, someone, said"... gotta remember that one for a future lyric) Originally Posted by digger
You certainly did that on that video. Great to hear the lines with the chords in the background, both coming thru really clear and pretty.
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Tasty playing Derek! Originally Posted by digger
Been there, forgot that. Originally Posted by digger
I may have to post this quote on my music stand. :-) Originally Posted by digger
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Just now looking at the anaylsis at the top of page 29. That exactly illustrates what I've said a couple of times previously, just play off of diatonic traids built from the chord tones of the parent chord. To me that is the simple way of thinking about it. Originally Posted by Jehu
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Not to beat a dead horse; but this was something I didn’t feel was clear when I worked through this material last time.
In its basic form he suggests the collection of triads built on the vi chord over a tonic major and built on the ii chord over the subdominant/dominant. Right?
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I'm a little confused (as you'll all have seen, this isn't unusual) by that page 28/29 explanation.
If I'm not mistaken, the entire journey so far has been to show, theoretically and practically, how we can take (in this case) a D-7 triad, extend it diatonically upwards and find the D min7, F major, A minor, and then C major triads, and use these in our improvisations.
So where on earth has A minor suddenly appeared from as the basic triad from which we can build some further triads that will also work over Dmin7?
The text answers my question by, (I paraphrase) "Amin is one of the triads derived from the Dmin7, so that means you can use the extensions derived from Amin to play over Dmin7."
Does this mean we can take any of the extensions, e.g. F maj / A min / C maj, derive a new set of triads from them and use those as well?
Also, how does the 6th note fit in here? I understand that the 6th is the characteristic note of the Dorian mode (although what that phrase actually means in practice I have no idea). GF talks about accenting this sound by playing these Amin7 triads instead of the Dmin7th - but it still feels like we've gone off into a virtual book two by way of a minor comment.
Confused of Gloucester!
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Nice playing, digger!
I think it's just a rule of thumb to allow us to access the Doran sound using shapes and material we already know. We can't just keep extending the triads upward by thirds, because the basic form is based on the natural minor, so we'd run into that flat 6th. By subbing in the same shapes starting from the 5th, we avoid that (as well as the subsequent diminished triad) and hit a natural 6th instead. Originally Posted by digger
There will be more of these substitutions as we go through the book, giving us maximize mileage from the same basic material. That's the beauty.
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Going back to the Gmin triad and its extensions it hasn't been specified that Gmin is the IImin of Fmaj but this will become clear when later in the book we will learn the extensions going down from Gmin - C7 and Emin7b5. In that context it makes perfect sense to play an Amin triad over a Dmin chord - same thing, just transposed up a perfect fifth. Hope that helps...
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One of the reasons I wanted to (and did) get a 5 string bass was the lower notes. For example, if the tonic is Eb, or any Eb chord for that matter, on a four string bass the lowest Eb just isn't that low. On a 5 string you've got the Eb an octave lower, same with the D, Db, C, and B an octave lower than on a 4 string bass. Pushed this accompainment all the way down to the lower D and C. Not sure you can hear those notes unless using headphones or better speakers (better than computer or phone speakers for instance).
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Thanks Tommo, but I'm not sure. I think I'm suddenly way out of my depth here. Originally Posted by TOMMO
Must confess, I'm struggling. I think the book is ahead of me. I thought it was building up to something, but more and more I'm thinking it is building on something. And the thing that it is building on, I don't yet have. Maybe I should have started my journey with a simpler book.
Not bailing just yet, though:-)
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I don't know if you have read through chapter 1 which reviews basic diatonic harmony. Maybe reading through it again will clear up some things... Originally Posted by digger
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Yep, read through Chapter One. Still not making connections between the lower diatonic extensions of Dmin7 leading me to an Amin triad *. I'm getting Dmin7 then Bm7b5 then G7.
No worries, I'll take it a page at a time and I'm sure it'll all become a little clearer as I progress.
I think, overall, it's all about learning styles. I do prefer to learn from a book, but I'm also very logical and like to go A to B to C to D etc. The book, until page 28, does this really well. GF takes us by the hand and leads us through the theory and practicalities of these upper diatonic extensions. But suddenly, on page 28, he's adding in two extra things - one is the use of the extensions of an extension, and the other is the use of the Dorian mode in our solos. It just feels like we've gone A B C D G H I with an assumption that the student using the book is happy with steps E and F from previous studies.
But this morning I've been soloing over Hot Saw using the Dorian and the pattern we learned earlier in Chapter 3 and it's sounding nice (although a long way from inflicting it upon you good people, yet!), so all is good. :-)
* Edit - to the extensions of the Am triad I should say. I get where the Amin triad itself comes from.
Cheers
DerekLast edited by digger; 02-09-2020 at 11:50 AM.
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Struggling is a sign you're learning something new to you. That's a good thing. (You should hear me try and fingerpick--it's abominable, though what I'm doing isn't that hard and I will get it in time.) The main thing, I think, is to play the lines. If you can play them and play them a lot, you will make sense of them. (You may use Fewell's terms or other ones; whatever works for you.) Originally Posted by digger
I get a bit confused about this material too. I think this is because I've encountered many approaches to playing jazz and they all use some different terms. My job is to integrate the material into something suitable for me.
The older I get the more I think 'finding one's voice' is a matter of cobbling together the bits and pieces of learning and experimenting and then getting them to (more or less) cohere. I'm not there yet but I'm far enough along to realize I can't start over with every new book: "Take what you need and leave the rest."
What I really like about Fewell's book is that although the fingerings seem awkward at times, I sense that he's making it so one can generate a lot of material from a few basic triads and extensions. In other words, I think what he's teaching will seem a lot simpler on the back end than it does on the front end. My two cents.
Don't bail! We need you.
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Yeah, I'm 62, I think, all path's lead to... finding one's voice. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I think the approach in this book gives one choices faciliating keeping it interesting as one takes a longer solo even over long streches of static chords like on So What. I really want to just be able to "go" and keep going, 5 minute solos?
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I always had the feeling that Fewell wants the reader/student to explore and find his own fingerings and ways to navigate the fretboard - often he writes that there are two possible fingerings when in fact there's a couple more (that he wants you to find out about for yourself). In the case of the sample solo for "Hot Saw" it seems to me the chosen fingerings are there to make the triad shapes easier to visualise. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I think that's what it's all about, finding a voice. I think a big step in that direction is songwriting. That and calming down---when nervous, I tend to ramble/ babble, and when playing, I don't know when to quit. I admire those players who move phrase to phrase, never rushing (even when playing fast) and always sounding like they're doing exactly what they want. O, and the third step: deciding what you are NOT going to make a priority. Charlie Christian, Wes, Django: great, distincitive, unmistakable, and they were limited in ways. (Not a criticism. There are people who can sing and make their living singing on demos because their voice isn't very distinctive. It's good, they're pros, but they don't limit the way a person hearing the demo might want to sing the song. Like some studio guitar players---they can play anything but nothing they play conveys a singular identity like Wes or Charlie or Django (or Chet or Merle or Jerry Reed) Originally Posted by fep
5 minute solos? Right now, getting off a solid chorus or two and ending well are where I've set my sights. ;o)
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Here's my first attempt at something on Hot Saw. I've pretty much stuck to the shapes / triads / licks we learned in Chapter Two and the beginning of Chapter Three. I've dealt with the Amin thing that I don't understand by simply avoiding it (not the Amin triad, that's in there, but the triads built from Amin), and I've not really done anything from the Dorian mode as GF suggests (although as far as I can tell everything we're doing comes from that mode). Anyway, I think this proves that I don't know the four shapes / licks well enough yet, but hopefully it shows promise...
For info, and credit where credit's due, the backing track comes from YouTube (Guitare Improvisation) with a few extra chords added.
Cheers
Derek
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starting late but interested in joining this group - I have the book and have been re-visiting it
the more i read along in this book I feel like I am getting slighly lost but after looking at it again - there really are not many concepts provided in the first 3 chapters, but I am just trying to keep them straight so I can use these in actual playing.
1) over a minor chord play a minor triad from the root and from the seventh play a major triad
example: Gmin can play a Gmin chord and Fmaj chord
2) over a minor chord play a triad from each chord tone
example: Gminor consisting of G, Bb, D, F (Gmin, Bb maj, Dmin, Fmaj)
3) for a major chord you can apply these same concepts from the relative minor
example: Gmin is the relative minor key to Bb maj, so over Bbmaj you can play the same chords from Gmin(Gmin, Bb maj, Dmin, Fmaj)
4) for a dorian minor (ii chord) you can play either the same triads derived in example 2 (over Gmin, Gmin, Bb maj, Dmin, Fmaj) or you can play triads derived from the fifth of the chord. for example for Gmin the fifth would be Dmin (Dmin, Fmaj, Amin, Cmaj)
5) Per page 33, over a dominant chord you can play a triad derived from the fifth of the dominant chord.
example: over C7 play Gmin. C7 = CEGBb. Gmin triad gives G Bb D (C79)
I only write this to see if I am interpreting all this information correctly and so I can keep everything straight. Of course the playing is what's important. Thanks all and I look forward to joining the group
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Glad you're interested. Welcome aboard. Originally Posted by wiscart1900
As for the minor chords, I think of it this way. (Not saying this is best or even that it's what GF is suggesting, but this is what seems most useful to me given what I've done before.)
I think of a minor 7 as a ii chord. (That's the default.) So if Gm7 is a ii, the I is F Major. F Major is also D min. D min is the vi of F major. C Major is the IV of F. So the four triads we have are: F, Gm, C and Dm. (The minor triad is a whole step up from a major triad.)
If that seems confusing, that's okay. There are other ways to internalize this and you will find one that suits you.
What I'm getting from Fewell's book is a way to organize the fretboard. (I was used to playing all the triads and 7th arpeggios in one position, not along the fretboard.)
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I think you're too hard on yourself Derek. I really enjoyed that! Thanks. Originally Posted by digger
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A quick run through Ex 3.1:
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