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  1. #51

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    Could we maybe just go back to whatever we were doing around this time yesterday?

    Patloch: please consider deleting some of these posts. Regardless of your intent they seem to be pretty abusive to me, and I'd hate to see this thread taken down due to 'inappropriate behavior'.

    Everyone's allowed to play whatever tune they like on whatever noise-maker they like at whatever speed they like. There is no 'right' way to learn or play jazz. I do understand you're trying to help Lawson but things went sideways on you after post #28. Maybe just chalk it up to the language barrier.

    I'm sure most folks have seen this clip. It's priceless. That was me up until a few months ago when Lawson started posting about this tune, only I'd been doing that for 50 years. Thanks LS!


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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I have never chosen you as my teacher. You are just an anonymous forum member who posts very long, rambling, messages about your musical theories. You have not earned any credibility...
    I'm not anonymous at all, Patlotch is my pen name for 20 years, there are on average 10,000 entries on Google, and my name for the police is at the top of my forum. As for "credibility" I do not intend to acquire it from those who understand everything wrong. Finally, I said over and over again that for nothing in the world I would not have wanted to be a teacher, neither in guitar, nor in anything else
    I do not know if you even know the way up there, since you give no proof that you have climbed it yourself.
    I have not tried to climb a mountain that does not attract me. And then I get dizzy. Not you, obviously.
    I'm enjoying my instrument, learning to play music that I love, surrounded by my beloved books and scholarly works that are part of my profession, with sunshine streaming into my office and my horses out in the pasture. There is no stone to roll down the mountain, and I am not Sisyphus. The world will not stop turning if my "Donna Lee" performance is imperfect, and I know it will be better tomorrow than it is today.

    Meanwhile, many on this forum have indeed proven the fruitfulness and usefulness of their ideas and earned their credibility as teachers and reliable guides. Their advice weighs strongly with me. Until you have earned your right to be respected as a reliable guide to making good music, I will continue to push my stone around, which in fact has not rolled back down the hill. I am making very happy progress in my music, and appreciating the encouragement I get from the real professional players and teachers on this forum.
    to the countries of the deaf the blind are kings, they find guides for it

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Could we maybe just go back to whatever we were doing around this time yesterday?

    Patloch: please consider deleting some of these posts. Regardless of your intent they seem to be pretty abusive to me, and I'd hate to see this thread taken down due to 'inappropriate behavior'.

    Everyone's allowed to play whatever tune they like on whatever noise-maker they like at whatever speed they like. There is no 'right' way to learn or play jazz. I do understand you're trying to help Lawson but things went sideways on you after post #28. Maybe just chalk it up to the language barrier.

    I'm sure most folks have seen this clip. It's priceless. That was me up until a few months ago when Lawson started posting about this tune, only I'd been doing that for 50 years. Thanks LS!

    Thats utterly hilarious!

    And yes, i'd like to get back to posting and discussing how to make progress on this wonderful, challenging tune.

    How are you getting along with it?

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Could we maybe just go back to whatever we were doing around this time yesterday?

    Patloch: please consider deleting some of these posts. Regardless of your intent they seem to be pretty abusive to me, and I'd hate to see this thread taken down due to 'inappropriate behavior'.

    Everyone's allowed to play whatever tune they like on whatever noise-maker they like at whatever speed they like. There is no 'right' way to learn or play jazz. I do understand you're trying to help Lawson but things went sideways on you after post #28. Maybe just chalk it up to the language barrier.

    I'm sure most folks have seen this clip. It's priceless. That was me up until a few months ago when Lawson started posting about this tune, only I'd been doing that for 50 years. Thanks LS!
    Well, call the moderators, since you can't stand the truth, which is cruel, so I'm the bad guy, what needed to be demonstrated: you did, congratulations!

    have everything you want deleted, I don't care

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Thats utterly hilarious!

    And yes, i'd like to get back to posting and discussing how to make progress on this wonderful, challenging tune.

    How are you getting along with it?
    I'm actually quite happy with my ability to play the head at this point. I'm trying to make myself get more into blowing on it, but I've worked on it so much over the last couple months that I need to go back to some other things that I've been neglecting.

    I really must get over my shyness and force myself to post a clip...

    Just want to say that I've really liked PMB's contributions. Very helpful.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    I'm actually quite happy with my ability to play the head at this point. I'm trying to make myself get more into blowing on it, but I've worked on it so much over the last couple months that I need to go back to some other things that I've been neglecting.

    I really must get over my shyness and force myself to post a clip...

    Just want to say that I've really liked PMB's contributions. Very helpful.
    Yes, his advice has been helpful and in the end, I have tried to use everything he's suggested. His clip is also impressive. I am still waffling on fingerings and also I'm just enthralled with the melodic and rhythmic creativity in Bird's solo. I find it sets up very nicely on the guitar and in some ways is easier to play than the head. It's almost like he counters the busy-ness of the head with a very spacious and off-center solo that is more like a 64 bar composition than a 32x2 blowing session.

    Don't be shy about posting. I wish more would feel free to post admitted imperfect examples. I don't see this as only a showcase for my best playing, but also (mainly) a safe place to put up things I'm still working to get right. Then people like PMB, Christian77, Greentone, those guys, all start commenting and pretty soon its better than lessons. When I go back and listen to my first clips in the Jimmy Raney study group, which was back in 2015, I am amazed at my own progress. I'm surely not as good as I could be, but I'm much better than I used to be. Gosh that sounds like a country song...

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    Well, call the moderators, since you can't stand the truth, which is cruel, so I'm the bad guy, what needed to be demonstrated: you did, congratulations!

    have everything you want deleted, I don't care
    Nobody is calling the moderators. Calm down. And you are not a martyr to the truth or anything nearly so dramatic. Post what you want, but realize that by not being a bebop guitarist yourself (as far as we know), you have limited credibility regardless of how many google hits you have. And realize also people will pick and choose what helps them, and ignore the rest. Nobody wants your posts deleted, and nobody wants you to go away.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Nobody is calling the moderators... Nobody wants your posts deleted, and nobody wants you to go away.
    tsss this is what your friend proposes above, tune your violins
    . Calm down. And you are not a martyr to the truth or anything nearly so dramatic.
    I'm calm, and amused, do not complain of my fate, as Gracian says, Art of patience, I am educated, with you
    And realize also people will pick and choose what helps them, and ignore the rest... not being a bebop guitarist yoursel
    how weird, after my first post, you said that it was useful to you, and that you were going to put into practice some of my recommendations. I understand, you've tried them, and they're bad, dear "bebop guitarist"

    PS : your "progress" is a great advertisement for the teachers you quote here. I think it's better not to be one
    Last edited by Patlotch; 02-15-2020 at 03:44 PM.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    tsss this is what your friend proposes above, tune your violins

    how weird, after my first post, you said that it was useful to you, and that you were going to put into practice some of my recommendations. I understand, you've tried them, and they're bad, dear "bebop guitarist"
    He said he worried that your abusive tone might cause the moderators to act, but so far nobody is calling them. Yes your first post was promising, but then basically you told me to stop doing what I was doing and do something else, and your posts got increasingly long and rambling, with no real applicability to what I was doing.

    You're being a drama queen here. Just stop it. We're going to talk about this tune from now on, and I will not be engaging with you any more. I certainly will not report you, I don't want your posts deleted, I just want to make progress with my own project. If you can help, great. If not, move along. These are not the droids you're looking for.

  11. #60

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    wise advice by a credible teacher
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You have to use legato in the right way though Patloch

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo
    There is no right time to learn Donna Lee - just dig in and get what you can out of it. You won't hurt anyone.
    That's basically it. Listen, I'm not going to do a theoretical lecture on how to play Donna Lee with slurs and hammer ons etc. because that is useless.

    Years ago I did a few Bird solos and I was amazed at how shitty his stuff often lies on guitar and how unguitaristic it really is. It's very hard therefore. And humbling. Years later I realized that there were no guitarists that could really approach his way of playing. It is popular myth that guitarist x plays like Bird. He doesn't and he won't. Not Wes, not the Raneys, not Farlow, not Benson, not Kessel, not Holdsworth, not Gambale, not van Ruller etc. etc. Not even Grasso (though he is the closest a guitarist has ever come in the bebop idiom of Bud Powell). Same for Coltrane and so many other horn players.

    Is that bad? No, it is not. Guitarists play bebop differently because they are well, guitarists. The limitations (or are they possibilities?) of the instrument etc. Guys like Raney or Tal or Wes play their own style and they sound nothing like Bird. Heck, of course not. You might as well try to sound like Buddy Rich on guitar. Or Keith Jarrett. Ain't gonna happen.

    Just have fun playing Donna Lee and take whatever you can use or like.

    DB


  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    That's basically it. Listen, I'm not going to do a theoretical lecture on how to play Donna Lee with slurs and hammer ons etc. because that is useless.

    Years ago I did a few Bird solos and I was amazed at how shitty his stuff often lies on guitar and how unguitaristic it really is. It's very hard therefore. And humbling. Years later I realized that there were no guitarists that could really approach his way of playing. It is popular myth that guitarist x plays like Bird. He doesn't and he won't. Not Wes, not the Raneys, not Farlow, not Benson, not Kessel, not Holdsworth, not Gambale, not van Ruller etc. etc. Not even Grasso (though he is the closest a guitarist has ever come in the bebop idiom of Bud Powell). Same for Coltrane and so many other horn players.

    Is that bad? No, it is not. Guitarists play bebop differently because they are well, guitarists. The limitations (or are they possibilities?) of the instrument etc. Guys like Raney or Tal or Wes play their own style and they sound nothing like Bird. Heck, of course not. You might as well try to sound like Buddy Rich on guitar. Or Keith Jarrett. Ain't gonna happen.

    Just have fun playing Donna Lee and take whatever you can use or like.

    DB

    That's what I'm talkin' about! Can't sound like Bird... from a guy who... sounds like Bird...

    I'm doing this to "up my game" and have fun with a challenging tune. Slurs and stuff, yes, it helps me realize why mine sounds "square" sometimes but I agree, the attempt to sound like Bird is doomed. I do think it's a good way to exercise the chops and learn.

  14. #63

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    That's what I'm talkin' about! Can't sound like Bird... from a guy who... sounds like Bird...
    Ha ... I wish!

    I'm doing this to "up my game" and have fun with a challenging tune. Slurs and stuff, yes, it helps me realize why mine sounds "square" sometimes but I agree, the attempt to sound like Bird is doomed. I do think it's a good way to exercise the chops and learn.
    Nothing wrong with learning slurs and dynamics etc. but don't let people fool you into thinking that you should sound like Bird on that guitar and that it's wrong if you fail to duplicate his execution or delivery. Playing that shit with a correct time feel is already hard enough.

    DB

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Ha ... I wish!



    Nothing wrong with learning slurs and dynamics etc. but don't let people fool you into thinking that you should sound like Bird on that guitar and that it's wrong if you fail to duplicate his execution or delivery. Playing that shit with a correct time feel is already hard enough.

    DB
    I definitely am not trying to sound like a horn. If that were the case, i'd be playing a horn. But Bird's emphasis, his way of mixing loud and soft, some of the notes almost seeming afterthoughts, the way he can drop into a measure on an odd beat and play a phrase, those things are just marvelous and I would love to have some of that sense of control and awareness of the music. I feel like I'm slowly getting a sense of it, and meanwhile, I'm enjoying what I'm playing. As you said it's all about having fun.

    I have my academic job for complicated stuff. Music is for fun.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    hate to see the bickering..especially amongst some obviously intelligent and learned members of our fun little jazzguitar forum

    but always nice to see a bruegel show up in a thread! hah

    peace out fellows...don't be lead astray

    cheers

  17. #66

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    I think Lawson’s endeavours with Donna Lee are very worthwhile.

    Not like this poor chap’s efforts.

    Learning Charlie Parker "Donna Lee" Solo?-fd8789d2-d552-4582-99ca-5c4215533d9e-jpg

  18. #67

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    Nice posts by all. Just wanted to add that for me, the idea behind working on this stuff is to get a handle on those kind of shapely lines; the phrasing. Up until recently I've been a pick-every-note kind of player. I deff can feel that just learning a little bit of Bird has started to percolate down into my other types of playing. A whole 'nother vocabulary to work with. So, Lawson, what you've said earlier about this appears to be true in my experience.

    Personally I've never really been all that interested in playing BeBop per se. I've always liked it well enough, but in truth I don't often put it on the player. I kind of see it as the primordial ooze that so much of the music that I do put on the player has evolved out of. I've always felt I would benefit by getting into it, and I feel it's underway even at this late stage. And it is fun to play.

    Great playing DB! You are deff a Bob playing Dutch man.
    Last edited by ccroft; 02-16-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think Lawson’s endeavours with Donna Lee are very worthwhile.

    Not like this poor chap’s efforts.

    Learning Charlie Parker "Donna Lee" Solo?-fd8789d2-d552-4582-99ca-5c4215533d9e-jpg
    He'll be right as long as he doesn't get too ambitious.

    Learning Charlie Parker "Donna Lee" Solo?-bruegel-fall-icarus-jpg

  20. #69

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    Then again, sometimes studying jazz is like trying to be a translator at the tower of Babel...Learning Charlie Parker "Donna Lee" Solo?-babel1-jpg

  21. #70

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    Thanks for this suggestion. I will see if I can shift my fingering. This stays pretty close to where I already play it, and has the advantage of being more in the center of the neck, which I think produces a nicer tone.
    That's another issue with translating Parker onto the fretboard. Bird played alto sax and that instrument sits in a higher register than guitar. Tenor sax, on the hand has a closer overall range to our instrument and that's no doubt part of the reason that classic organ quartets paired tenor and guitar. Many of Parker's lines sit more readily in the upper reaches of the guitar neck, particularly if played in the correct octave but it's not an optimum register tonally, particularly on the lower strings.

    In the final analysis, there's always some kind of trade-off. Yes, as DB states, you'll never sound just like Parker but the process of learning the vocabulary, along with making decisions regarding where to place and how to articulate phrases will provide some of the best lessons you can give yourself. By the way, none of Parker's highly rated contemporaries were simply clones of Parker (including Bud Powell, who as it happens played piano on the studio version of "Donna Lee").

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    He'll be right as long as he doesn't get too ambitious.

    Learning Charlie Parker "Donna Lee" Solo?-bruegel-fall-icarus-jpg
    yeah that’s an odd one, if you didn’t know it was the fall of Icarus you would hardly see him in the water bottom right!

    When I was a kid, my dad was given a huge book of all Brueghel’s paintings and prints by a Belgian business colleague. I was entranced by it and spent many hours engrossed in those strange characters and wonderful landscapes. So I’ve always liked Brueghel.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    That's basically it. Listen, I'm not going to do a theoretical lecture on how to play Donna Lee with slurs and hammer ons etc. because that is useless.

    Years ago I did a few Bird solos and I was amazed at how shitty his stuff often lies on guitar and how unguitaristic it really is. It's very hard therefore. And humbling. Years later I realized that there were no guitarists that could really approach his way of playing. It is popular myth that guitarist x plays like Bird. He doesn't and he won't. Not Wes, not the Raneys, not Farlow, not Benson, not Kessel, not Holdsworth, not Gambale, not van Ruller etc. etc. Not even Grasso (though he is the closest a guitarist has ever come in the bebop idiom of Bud Powell). Same for Coltrane and so many other horn players.

    Is that bad? No, it is not. Guitarists play bebop differently because they are well, guitarists. The limitations (or are they possibilities?) of the instrument etc. Guys like Raney or Tal or Wes play their own style and they sound nothing like Bird. Heck, of course not. You might as well try to sound like Buddy Rich on guitar. Or Keith Jarrett. Ain't gonna happen.

    Just have fun playing Donna Lee and take whatever you can use or like.

    DB
    grant green plays bebop *exactly* like a hornplayer influenced by bird.

    sonny greenwich expanded on that and brought coltrane's language to the guitar. followed by cats like roland prince, munoz, rodney jones. admittedly not the most popular branch of jazz guitar...

    this is bird on guitar, and not only because of the country gardes quote.


  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    yeah that’s an odd one, if you didn’t know it was the fall of Icarus you would hardly see him in the water bottom right!

    When I was a kid, my dad was given a huge book of all Brueghel’s paintings and prints by a Belgian business colleague. I was entranced by it and spent many hours engrossed in those strange characters and wonderful landscapes. So I’ve always liked Brueghel.
    I had a similar experience in the school library as a teenager and came across the related Auden poem around the same time: Auden, Musée des Beaux Arts

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    grant green plays bebop *exactly* like a hornplayer influenced by bird.

    sonny greenwich expanded on that and brought coltrane's language to the guitar. followed by cats like roland prince, munoz, rodney jones. admittedly not the most popular branch of jazz guitar...

    this is bird on guitar, and not only because of the country gardes quote.

    Listening right now. You know I highly respect your opinion but could you elaborate why you think Grant plays like a horn player? Is it the melodic content or the form? He does not strike me as a player who sounds like Bird at all. Any other horn players he sounds like?

    DB

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    Listening right now. You know I highly respect your opinion but could you elaborate why you think Grant plays like a horn player? Is it the melodic content or the form? He does not strike me as a player who sounds like Bird at all. Any other horn players he sounds like?

    DB
    i think at times he sounds so much like lou donaldson it's uncanny. check out "here tis" (foggy day) and "good gracious" (caracas). good solos to learn too.

    same with stan turrentine. the way you look tonight is worth investigating. turrentine's solo could verbatim be from grant and vice versa. or broadway from the live recording.

    listen to the brazil solo from 1:15 to 1:30. if that's not pure bird i do not know what is. i hear more bird in those 15 seconds than from any other guitarist (maybe except eddie mcfadden).

    it's the phrasing, the little baroque embellishments, the quotes. the rhythms of course. but most importantly it's that in-your-face quality, that is a vital part of bop but is mostly overlooked these days. this is why to my ears grasso's low-key approach sounds not really like bud powell or bird. i hear no sense of urgency. it's all well rehearsed and impressive. but all bop styles need to kick ass to an extend imo. like bird playing white christmas with an almost punk rock attitude.

  27. #76

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    So, my take on slurring lines. With the difficulty of putting sax lines on guitar, something is always changed. Jimmy Raney's feel is not like Parker's - it's straighter, more behind, for instance, but I love it. One player I feel has really nice articulation is Mike Moreno, a real bop guy but with a modern twist... And I've basically stolen his rules, which are similar to PMBs, except not so strict, in that I will pick two notes in a row if they are on adjacent strings (Moreno uses economy/sweep picking) so Moreno's/my fingerings end up being a bit more standard/traditional.

    That said practicing the stricter version of slurring is probably a very good idea.

    Also, simply playing a scale or other phrase but accenting all the upbeats. Of course, jazz musicians do not in fact accent all the upbeats, but it is often a necessary corrective to the tendency for many people to accent the downbeats. It also helps draw attention to their rhythmic placement.

    Beyond that, I also practice stuff with a metronome click on the 'ands' - maybe the '+' of 2 and 4. Given that's where you will be picking, these exercises work hand in glove.

    Again, this is not the end of the road, but it's a very useful stepping stone on it. Upbeats are a problem for most students. Playing with records won't help unless you are able to perceive where Bird is placing his notes. Some people are just really good at this, and find breaking stuff down in this way tiresome or pointless. Others less so...

    I think playing with a click can help with that, if only in that it gets you used to synchronising exactly with another sound. Some might dispute the value of using a metronome, but I think the thing is not the click, or the regularity of it, but being able to lock in with something. That's the thing to learn.

    (The next step is being able to project your time feel, of course.)

    It's complicated. Guitarists (like me) are quite stupid about this stuff, so don't listen too much to them. They get distracted by having to know the chords to things and so on.

    Instead, talk to drummers. If they aren't just able to do it because they were playing Samba or Gospel at 7 years old or something, they have to be able to break down this stuff and get good at it because they can't simply lock into the pocket - they are the pocket!

    Exercises develop perception and flexibility. They are not holy writ. And they shouldn't form too much of your practice. In the end, your ears are the ultimate judge, and the thing that needs work, all the time.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-16-2020 at 10:13 AM.

  28. #77

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    Lawson may not be interested, but if I may:

    Slurring from upbeat into downbeat is the conventional wisdom for learning to accent and feel the upbeats. That worked for me, but what really helped also was adopting the gypsy jazz style of picking (even though I play archtop bebop)

    Just as the slurring, the picking accents are based on the fingering of the passage you are playing. In this way, you are playing guitaristically.

    Between these two things I get the “right” amount of slurs in the “right” places, some of which surprise even myself.

    I don’t try to match slurs of the horns I transcribe, I slur and accent where my guitar basically does it by itself.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Instead, talk to drummers. If they aren't just able to do it because they were playing Samba or Gospel at 7 years old or something, they have to be able to break down this stuff and get good at it because they can't simply lock into the pocket - they are the pocket!
    Stanton Moore's book "Groove Alchemy", has probably done more for my playing rhythmically than any other book. There's a couple bits I found particularly helpful:

    1) playing "in the cracks": go from perfectly straight 8ths all the way to dotted 8th and back. be very aware of where you are in relation to the triplet at all times.

    2) thinking of playing the snare ahead or behind the beat as a flam. this requires some drumming rudimentary skills to make sense, but, it was very helpful for me.

  30. #79

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    [QUOTE=pcsanwald;10091652) thinking of playing the snare ahead or behind the beat as a flam. this requires some drumming rudimentary skills to make sense, but, it was very helpful for me.[/QUOTE]

    This is great advice. The playing on the downbeat should be just just behind so the upbeats can lock in without sounding “dum de dum de dum.”

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So, my take on slurring lines. With the difficulty of putting sax lines on guitar, something is always changed. Jimmy Raney's feel is not like Parker's - it's straighter, more behind, for instance, but I love it. One player I feel has really nice articulation is Mike Moreno, a real bop guy but with a modern twist... And I've basically stolen his rules, which are similar to PMBs, except not so strict, in that I will pick two notes in a row if they are on adjacent strings (Moreno uses economy/sweep picking) so Moreno's/my fingerings end up being a bit more standard/traditional.

    That said practicing the stricter version of slurring is probably a very good idea.

    Also, simply playing a scale or other phrase but accenting all the upbeats. Of course, jazz musicians do not in fact accent all the upbeats, but it is often a necessary corrective to the tendency for many people to accent the downbeats. It also helps draw attention to their rhythmic placement.

    Beyond that, I also practice stuff with a metronome click on the 'ands' - maybe the '+' of 2 and 4. Given that's where you will be picking, these exercises work hand in glove.

    Again, this is not the end of the road, but it's a very useful stepping stone on it. Upbeats are a problem for most students. Playing with records won't help unless you are able to perceive where Bird is placing his notes. Some people are just really good at this, and find breaking stuff down in this way tiresome or pointless. Others less so...

    I think playing with a click can help with that, if only in that it gets you used to synchronising exactly with another sound. Some might dispute the value of using a metronome, but I think the thing is not the click, or the regularity of it, but being able to lock in with something. That's the thing to learn.

    (The next step is being able to project your time feel, of course.)

    It's complicated. Guitarists (like me) are quite stupid about this stuff, so don't listen too much to them. They get distracted by having to know the chords to things and so on.

    Instead, talk to drummers. If they aren't just able to do it because they were playing Samba or Gospel at 7 years old or something, they have to be able to break down this stuff and get good at it because they can't simply lock into the pocket - they are the pocket!

    Exercises develop perception and flexibility. They are not holy writ. And they shouldn't form too much of your practice. In the end, your ears are the ultimate judge, and the thing that needs work, all the time.
    All great advice, Christian. Btw, it was Moreno that got me rethinking about the optimum tonal areas of the guitar neck. I also agree that working with metronomes/clicks is valid as long as we approach them in a creative, exploratory manner rather than as a crutch.

  32. #81

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    it's the phrasing, the little baroque embellishments, the quotes. the rhythms of course. but most importantly it's that in-your-face quality, that is a vital part of bop but is mostly overlooked these days. this is why to my ears grasso's low-key approach sounds not really like bud powell or bird. i hear no sense of urgency. it's all well rehearsed and impressive. but all bop styles need to kick ass to an extend imo. like bird playing white christmas with an almost punk rock attitude.
    Definitely. As much as I love Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney (and Grant Green was a big fan of the latter), for me one of the only guitarists back in the day that managed to combine the laminar flow of Bird and the rhythmic urgency of Bud Powell was Billy Bean (check out this clip at 0'54"):

    Last edited by PMB; 02-16-2020 at 10:40 PM.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i think at times he sounds so much like lou donaldson it's uncanny. check out "here tis" (foggy day) and "good gracious" (caracas). good solos to learn too.

    same with stan turrentine. the way you look tonight is worth investigating. turrentine's solo could verbatim be from grant and vice versa. or broadway from the live recording.

    listen to the brazil solo from 1:15 to 1:30. if that's not pure bird i do not know what is. i hear more bird in those 15 seconds than from any other guitarist (maybe except eddie mcfadden).

    it's the phrasing, the little baroque embellishments, the quotes. the rhythms of course. but most importantly it's that in-your-face quality, that is a vital part of bop but is mostly overlooked these days. this is why to my ears grasso's low-key approach sounds not really like bud powell or bird. i hear no sense of urgency. it's all well rehearsed and impressive. but all bop styles need to kick ass to an extend imo. like bird playing white christmas with an almost punk rock attitude.
    Interesting observations DJG. I never thought about the in-your-face quality of bebop but now you mention it ... I'll check out the tunes by Donaldson and Turrentine. I know you are a big Grant Green fan but I need to check him out more than I have already done so far.

    DB

  34. #83

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    tiny grimes on tenor guitar...very early on with bird..grimes had great pedigree...had played in art taum trio with slam stewart



    bird also played with barney kessel, arv garrison and bill d'arango early on...the latter was a pretty good bopper, before he disappeared back to the midwest

    nobody did it better than jimmy raney..he was a true bopper...a bird disciple...& of the era!!

    cheers

  35. #84

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    I always liked the Tiny Grimes sessions, despite Parker's superiority Grimes would always dig in and blow.

  36. #85

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    Bebop Jazz Guitar Licks - Classic Bebop Sound Decoded - Advanced Jazz Guitar Lesson

    How Charlie Parker Licks can help you play better Jazz Guitar - Bebop Jazz Guitar Lesson

    others exercises

  37. #86

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    man, to see all these bruegels on the jazzguitar forum makes me happy

    to the elder!



    cheers

  38. #87

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    I have decided not to continue this thread. I will continue my less than stellar efforts on "Donna Lee" but I very much regret the way this thread turned away from playing a tune better. When I finish working on this, I might post a final version at some tempo above 60 bpm, but otherwise I think this is not the venue to journal my journey with this tune.

  39. #88

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    sorry to read this l-s..tho while i agree, your original post has veered off in strange directions...i still believe they have mostly been interesting and informative diversions...

    i understand and appreciate your efforts nevertheless

    carry on..a worthy cause!

    cheers

  40. #89

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    yes keep at it, you were doing ok I thought.

    Whatever happens you’ll get something out of the process.

    Following in Jimmy Raney’s footsteps, trying to capture some of Bird’s language on the guitar, a noble cause!

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I have decided not to continue this thread. I will continue my less than stellar efforts on "Donna Lee" but I very much regret the way this thread turned away from playing a tune better. When I finish working on this, I might post a final version at some tempo above 60 bpm, but otherwise I think this is not the venue to journal my journey with this tune.
    Be not deterred, Brother. You have put hand to plow in a worthy task, from which many will benefit. Persevere, if you can. That other cheek can be useful.

  42. #91

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    Long winded know it alls come and go on this forum (and other forums)
    But class acts like Lawson are the backbone of said forums.
    He'll be here long after the trolls are gone.