-
my question is how do good players develope the ability to see the chord tones all over the guitar neck and be able to play them with ease? how is it that some players can have a progression of changes put in front of them for the first time and make a good chord tone based solo?
is it just knowing the names of the notes on the fretboard and knowing what notes are in a chord really well? is it a more pattern based thing?
-
02-20-2008 05:47 PM
-
Man that is a great question. I struggled with it for a while (still working on it) and came up with a couple of ways I do it and teach it. First is learning 7th chord arpeggios in at least two positions, 2 octaves.
The next way I began getting this, is by using the Freddy Green shell voicings. Dirk has a lesson on shell voicings here. They are 3 note chords using root, 3rd and 7th. Once you learn those, you can pretty easily eliminate the roots, which leaves you with just the 3rds and 7ths. If you play just those two notes, you can easily hear the changes to any tune.
By using them as the basis of single note improv, you really can't go wrong, as long as you are emphasizing them. Finally, one of the guys I study with is a strong triad guy, so having a firm grasp of chord scale triads, and bitonal (superimposing) use of triads really helps.
Garrison Fewell's book on melodic improvisation covers the triad thing real well, and to a lesser degree, so does John Stowell's 3 part dvd/book on improv. Hope that helps.
-
yea ive been wondering this too. i really hope i can learn to do this too. i cant really provide you an answer cause im probably not even at your level yet
-
i dunno if there's a shortcut...i've been playing for 17 years (which is nothing in the grand scheme of things) and only within the past few years have i ben able to "see it."
part of it is definitely visual pattern/memorization...part of it is also knowing how to construct chords...when i decided to really pick apart and figure out multiple inversions for every chord a few years back, i needed to know the name of the notes, but by default i was learning their function too...understanding what a fifth sounds like on the bottom vs. a third etc....i think it really helped me that i figured this stuff out for myself too--no books, no pre-printed charts...really made me think about it.
taking time to verbalize music theory, in particular, chords, has helped too--even if it's just having a conversation about chords with another musician and spelling things out...like sitting over a pianists shoulder and hearing a minor ninth chord in my head and having to spell it out to the guy...stuff like that makes music a lot more a part of your every day language, and that's been a huge help for me...
-
Well, apparently I just lost a more extensive reply due to being timed out, so I don't know if it will appear as a double post or not, if so, sorry. But here's an abbreviated version:
My method is to practice the most commonly used chord arpeggios in every position up and down the neck of the guitar. I not only practice the patterns, but I mentally identify the intervals I'm playing. Then I record myself comping a rhythm progression and then improvise chord tone solos over that by playing through those changes with arpeggios. The method is guaranteed to yield results over time by training your ear and muscle memory. I find it is helpful to use the CAGED system as a basic fretboard reference for the various arpeggio patterns. While a photographic memory and exellent ear probably help the "good players" learn this more easily and quickly, learning to visualize the chord tones all over the neck is multi-year process.
-
I'm still a very green newbie when it comes to jazz, but what is already starting to do it for me is learning all the numeric interval relations. This doesn't do you any good if you don't know the notes of the fingerboard to start with, as you have to know where you are or at least where you are rooted. From there, the chord tones are always going to fall in the same relative place to a given root. Once you get the intervals down, there's nothing else really to memorize as the rest is just knowing what the chord is.
Easily said, I know... been working on this a while and will be working on it for a long time to come. But that's what is "opening the door" for me - with both soloing and dealing with the zillion chord choices available.
-
yea i guess that has been my general approach. learning arpeggios all over and just knowing where they are rooted. im actually going back now and really looking at the intervals and singing them cause its something i kind of skipped on my way to doing arpeggios.
-
Hey Derek, I've heard this lesson on shell voicings mentioned in a couple different discussions but I can't seem to find it on the jazzguitar.be website. If you could post the link for me so I can check it out that'd be awesome. Thanks a lot man.
Originally Posted by derek
-
Voice leading is a good way to practise arpeggios and learn the changes at the same time. Say for example you have a 11/v/1 in Cmaj, half a measure of each, you could play; D F A C (Dm7), then go to the nearest tone of the next chord (G7), which would be a B and then decend from there so you have; D F A C B G F D, into the root for the C chord.
Practise decending and ascending into the next chord.
By practising the arpeggios starting on notes other than the root you will get a smooth voice leading into a different note of the next chord. F A C D F D B G, into B or E of the C Chord, and so on. Then improvise a line of continual 8th notes over the progression, introducing scale tones, chromatic notes etc.
Something else I stress to my students: The more you play the comp ( the more left hand variety, chord inversions), the more secure you will feel in your solo.
What happens is you develop a sense of time, just like you do when you play a simple blues, and after a while you know intuitively whether you are in the 4th measure of the middle 8 etc, without actually naming it.
Hope this helps. Cheers
-
guitaroscar, and anyone else, are you actually thinking of the note names as you play them during that kind of thing? or do you think of the intervals or something else?
-
That's a good question, I'd be interested in knowing that too. Right now, I only think note names when finding roots basically. Otherwise, I only think intervals. But I want to eventually be able to think note names just as easily. It just seems much harder to think in notes to me, though. Intervals seem quite easy. Want to hear something funny, though? Like many kids I learned the alphabet by singing it in series. ABCD, EFG, etc. When I started studying music, the hardest thing in the world for me to do was to be able to think of the alphabet backwards (like a descending scale), etc. That's one reason why intervals seemed easier to me, because I have no problem with moving in either direction mentally with numbers. Just goes to show you that memory aids can be quite dangerous. I try to avoid "every good boy" type shortcuts when learning anything these days.
-
I try to think about chord tones, arpeggios, as one octave cells. I base these one octave fingerings off of the 6th, 5th, 4th, and 3rd strings. Then if I want to play a two octave run I connect the 6th and 4th string root patterns and then the 5th and 3rd string root patterns.
I also look for positions where I can play chord progressions without moving my hand. So if I am playing on Dm7-G7-Cmaj7-A7b9 I would play the Dm7 arpeggio on the 6th string, the G7 on the 5th string, the Cmaj7 on the 4th string and the A7b9 on the 5th string. That way I wouldn't need to move my hand more than 2 frets and can outline all of the chords in the progression.
I do think of the note names when playing at slow or medium tempos, but not all the notes, just ones I'm aiming for, or that lead smoothly into the next chord. At fast tempos, 240+, I am playing off of instinct. That's where all the hours spend practicing these things come in handy!
I had a friend who studied with Mike Stern and all they worked was playing 1 octave arpeggios. He told my friend "you can't play anything if you can't do this all over the neck". He's probably right!
MW
-
alright cool. ive been concentrating on 1 octave arps lately. linking them together to make 2 octaves is also something i kind of figured out on my own. good to know ive been on the right track.
-
Here you go Mr. Matthews. Btw, love your music! Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
http://www.jazzguitar.be/jazz_guitar...sic_shell.html
-
haha... you know I try to please the fans.
thanks a lot for the link. I'm not sure why but I couldn't find the lesson last when I was looking for it.
Thanks again
-
When I am practising I always try to be aware of the names of the notes, the intervals, the underlying chord, scale etc. This helps in understanding harmony and the duplicity of many jazz chords eg; Play a Bbmaj7 arpeggio in the 5th pos starting on the 4th string. Simply put, if you don't know the names of the notes you would not be aware that this is also a Gm11-root, or a C11. Knowing this means you have found an arpeggio that will work with 3 chords (in most circumstances). Originally Posted by Holmes Monaco
By practising voice leading arpeggios as I described above you get to start these arpeggios on notes other than the root and by doing so you will make these discoveries. And yes, you can do this with scales and chords. With chords, pick one note (start with the bass (which is note necessarily the root)), and try to find a chord inversion for the next chord that will allow this note to lead smoothly (or jaggedly if that is what you desire-most jazz changes are better with smooth voice leading).
Then pick another string and repeat the process. It will not always be possible but you will be exploring the fingerboard in a way that will greatly help your geography. You will be learning new chords and anything you figure out by yourself this way will stay with you longer (the way our minds work I guess).
When I am performing I try to forget what is what and just concentrate on making a melody, using my ear as a guide. If I concentrate on scales, arpeggios, notes etc when performing, then that is what my solo will sound like.
I believe a great disservice of modern jazz tuition has been to turn the exercise of creating a solo into a giant mathematical equation. It isn't. There is no great mystery. Train your ear, train your hands, learn lots of beautiful melodies, and play.
This is the way you learned to talk. You know all about verbs, adjectives etc, you studied it. But when you are having a conversation you don't think perhaps I should be using a pronoun here - is this the right place to use an adverb? You just talk. The better you know the topic, the better your talk will be.
Hope this helps. I could have saved myself years of frustration if I had just taken my own advice years ago.
Cheers
-
I think by the numbers and the overall shape more than note names . I am able to do that because I already know and speak the theory fluently on piano. |Seeing the shapes all over the neck is what's so different from piano.
Last edited by rintincop; 11-07-2018 at 03:48 PM.
-
Originally Posted by rintincop
-
Yea, shapes! It's a visual+hearing thing, I never think of the notes names, but rather root-3-5-7 kinda thing. After a while you can make your own little patterns around those shapes, through trial and error mostly, and transcribing. No shortcuts, you noodle your way into fluency. It's a lot of fun!
-
Here's how I learned to do it:
I learned to read, and learned the neck that way.
I drilled myself to know the chord tones of all the chords I use. 12 keys.
I learned Chuck Wayne's system of chord grips (I've detailed this in prior posts) so that I can get pretty much any note on top of any chord.
After that, it's learning tunes and ways to reharmonize. That has been discussed on this forum in different ways - transcription, theory, books with chord melodies -- however you can figure out how to embellish a song's basic harmony with good voice leading.
I don't know if this is the best way -- it clearly isn't the only way. But it does work.
-
Hopefully the OP made some progress in 10 years lol
I'm surprised the thread didn't grow legs, I guess it wasn't populated by the theory heavies back then!
-
Focused practice.
-
Seems like this thread picked up again with more suggestions. My 2 cents FWIW.
I assume that the original post was about improvising chord melodies, harmonies, etc. and visualization. I am far from an expert, but I start to think of anchor notes in chord shapes that I can slide into other positions. The note could be part of a barre, or a 7th note, or root for that phrase, etc. Then I slide to another position and change chord shapes except for that anchor note. In lieu of that, I slide through a series of chord shapes that include note(s) relative to the melody or harmony.
If you can follow that here is the most crucial part: If I happen to slide into position that doesn't resolve, or voice, like I may have intended, I slide the whole grip up or down a fret or two until I get what I want. The key thing is the timing. As I do it I can nuance the voicings of the chords such that it seems more intentional than what it actually is. From there it is rinse & repeat with more nuances. I may be wrong, but I think that it was Joe Pass that said something like "If you play the wrong note the correct note is only a half step away." I am all about being a half step away.
-
Originally Posted by Holmes Monaco
change 'see' to 'hear' and that is 90% of the answer.
-
No he is still coming back here to this topic looking for more advice. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Reply With Quote
Part 2 Secrets to McCoy Tyner using 4ths,...
Today, 07:31 PM in Improvisation