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  1. #201

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    Here we go. Last take of the night, warts and all.



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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Here’s one more. Improvement I have noticed from a couple of weeks ago is ideas coming from my ear rather than the fingerings. I can see at times I am hearing something in my head that my fingers can’t grab quickly enough. I think that’s a good sign that I am absorbing some of this.



  4. #203

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    Nicely done wzpgsr!!!. I really enjoyed v2 lots of space and I think I hear in both of them lots of very deliberate phrasing and ideas that stay and work within the triads+extensions without being a slave to the fingering patterns.

    Will

  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    First take on Elle. Trying to find my way. Trying to use the triads which goes out to extensions but then I get pulled back in which seems to be where I'm migrating too.

    Good job, Frank!

  6. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
    Nicely done wzpgsr!!!.

    Will
    Yes - definitely improvement over v.1! Well done!

  7. #206

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    Well done Fep and wzpgsr. Nicely done in both cases!

    Derek

  8. #207

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    I did a quick loop instead of using the backing track. My apologies if you wanted to hear the intro melody one more time Also I borrowed a few ideas from chapter 3 I think. I didn't do such a good job of connecting the lines from one chord to the next. But here goes:


  9. #208

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    Okay... here's my version warts (*) and all. I tried to do a couple of things - one develop (in my case this means "repeat") little fragments to at least give some semblance of logic, to find some melodies (not a strong point of mine...yet, anyway - hopefully "A Melodic Approach will help), to try and build up the feel/intensity as I progressed through the choruses, and - most of all - try and link the chords / shapes across the bar lines. I'm pretty happy with how this turned out (it was Take # 2) and how I managed the above. Apologies for the 1960's style TV zoom in / out of focus. I think the camera AF was too finely set and thus when I started grooving so the focus went.

    (*) My timing on the melody especially!

    Anyway, I can't wait to turn the page and move on! Still a few pages left in this chapter.



    Cheers
    Derek

  10. #209

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    Very nice, Derek!

  11. #210

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    Wow, awesome playing, folks! Cool to hear the different approaches that people are taking to this progression. I think Garrison would be proud. Derek, I dig the 60s special effects -- it adds to the groove!

    If anyone is after an extra challenge, a good exercise is to improvise through the progression using constant, steady 8ths with no rests. This is the approach taken in the Howard Roberts' Superchops course that wzpgsr and I did a while back (and an exercise that Bruce Forman highly recommends). I can't speak for wzpgsr, but I really got a lot out of it... definitely not exciting to listen to, but it really cements the changes in. Then once you play with more rhythmic freedom, you've got a much more solid foundation to stand on.

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Wow, awesome playing, folks! Cool to hear the different approaches that people are taking to this progression. I think Garrison would be proud. Derek, I dig the 60s special effects -- it adds to the groove!

    If anyone is after an extra challenge, a good exercise is to improvise through the progression using constant, steady 8ths with no rests. This is the approach taken in the Howard Roberts' Superchops course that wzpgsr and I did a while back (and an exercise that Bruce Forman highly recommends). I can't speak for wzpgsr, but I really got a lot out of it... definitely not exciting to listen to, but it really cements the changes in. Then once you play with more rhythmic freedom, you've got a much more solid foundation to stand on.
    Seconded. I’d highly recommend that entire program.

  13. #212

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    So instead of playing the triad, how about playing stuff that you would play over that triad. Like for Am, play your C major chord stuff, your Em chord stuff, your G major chord stuff.

    Tryiing that idea out. Created a couple of lines for C major (a little bit buesy in a major blues way) and Em.

    Attached Images Attached Images Garrison Fewell's Melodic Approach - Ch 1-2-am-thinking-c-then-em-png 

  14. #213

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    Thought I'd give it a shot. Here's my submission of 'Elle'.


  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana
    Thought I'd give it a shot. Here's my submission of 'Elle'.

    Awesome Dana, sounding good.

    Mark it up, another strat on the Jazz Forum (not forgeting the awesome Pete Sklaroff).

  16. #215

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    You guys are making my Strat jones start to quiver.

  17. #216

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    Well done, Frank and Dana!

  18. #217

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    All this activity is giving me a case of relative deprivation, so thought I'd get something recorded - so now I just feel technically incompetent rather that totally inadequate

    I'll try to improve on the recording as we go along, must be a better way than the H2 in front of the amp with backing track in the background - I'll work it out...

    I can't claim to be an imaginative improviser, so the solo as transcribed, play through of the chords and extensions, then the minor chords only.

    P.17 Elle

  19. #218

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    Sounded good to me, Michael! Well done.

  20. #219

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    So for those of us who have managed a version of Elle, how are you approaching the next few pages of Chapter 2?

    Splitting the Gmin7/9 shape into four arp's is straightforward - and using GF's memory device is nice: build a min / maj / min / maj traid on each of the chord tones from the chord. But what are people doing to drive this home in all keys? i.e. you need to memorise and have instant recall of the chord tones.

    Me, I'm driving up and down the motorway(not randomly! I'm on the way to work ) saying to myself "Gmin7 - G, Bb, D, F. Fmin7 - F, Ab, C, Eb" and so on. But without the guitar in hand it's tough! Maybe we should simply remember the shapes?

    What are folks doing?

    Cheers
    Derek

  21. #220

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    If I'm thinking at all it's more like: I - bIII - V - bVII...

  22. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    Me, I'm driving up and down the motorway(not randomly! I'm on the way to work ) saying to myself "Gmin7 - G, Bb, D, F. Fmin7 - F, Ab, C, Eb" and so on. But without the guitar in hand it's tough! Maybe we should simply remember the shapes?
    I have done that.
    Knowing the shapes helps because they're easily moved around. (With a little practice, anyway.)
    It's good to know the intervals too. I think that just comes with practice.

    As a way of getting used to them, you can 'stack triads' the way Carol Kaye teaches: if you start on Gm (the ii of F, in her thinking) you have G Bb D. The next triad is Bb D F. The next is D F A. And so on. The second and third notes of one triad become the first and second one of the next. Keep going and you end up back at G Bb D, an octave higher.

    This is why they tend to alternate between major and minor, though if you go through all seven in a key, you will have the vii diminished triad, containing a minor third, to be followed by another triad (ii) with a minor third. Other than that, they do alternate major / minor or minor / major, depending on your starting point.

    Fewell is moving along the neck rather than staying in one position. That's good to be able to do. It's why his fingering and picking directions are so specific.

  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    So for those of us who have managed a version of Elle, how are you approaching the next few pages of Chapter 2?

    Splitting the Gmin7/9 shape into four arp's is straightforward - and using GF's memory device is nice: build a min / maj / min / maj traid on each of the chord tones from the chord. But what are people doing to drive this home in all keys? i.e. you need to memorise and have instant recall of the chord tones.

    Me, I'm driving up and down the motorway(not randomly! I'm on the way to work ) saying to myself "Gmin7 - G, Bb, D, F. Fmin7 - F, Ab, C, Eb" and so on. But without the guitar in hand it's tough! Maybe we should simply remember the shapes?

    What are folks doing?

    Cheers
    Derek
    "traid on each of the chord tones from the chord" that is what I'm thinking. And from there I'm just using chord grips that I know and building triads off of the chord tones of those grips. I'm not really thinking of the chord names that result from that, at least most of the time I'm not thinking of the chord names.

    Thanks to Larry Carlton, I do have something I like to do where I do need to think of chord names. For a minor chord, for example Gm, I like to alternate between a Bbmaj and Cmaj triad. For a major chord, say G (mixolydian-G7 type) I like to alternate between Gmaj and Fmaj triad. For this I seem to need to keep track of the triad names.

    I'm okay at familar keys, not so good at other keys (like Ebmin and Bbmin).
    Last edited by fep; 01-15-2020 at 01:10 PM.

  24. #223

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    Hmm. It feels like I'm struggling where no-one else is.

    I get how the four triads are built, and how they alternate between minor and major, and where they are in realtion to each other. And for Gmin7 I can whip through the four shapes nice and easily. But what if the next chord is Ebmin7? In order to grab any of those four triad shapes (let's say you want to grab the one closest to wherever you are on the guitar) you have to instantly know Eb, Gb, Bb, and Db as the four starting notes for your min / maj / min / maj triads.

    Is it just a case of remembering the notes for each minor 7th chord (clearly I should know these anyway- and I'm happy to say I now know Ebm7 ! It was today's chord in the car)?

    Cheers
    Derek

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    Hmm. It feels like I'm struggling where no-one else is.

    I get how the four triads are built, and how they alternate between minor and major, and where they are in realtion to each other. And for Gmin7 I can whip through the four shapes nice and easily. But what if the next chord is Ebmin7? In order to grab any of those four triad shapes (let's say you want to grab the one closest to wherever you are on the guitar) you have to instantly know Eb, Gb, Bb, and Db as the four starting notes for your min / maj / min / maj triads.

    Is it just a case of remembering the notes for each minor 7th chord (clearly I should know these anyway- and I'm happy to say I now know Ebm7 ! It was today's chord in the car)?

    Cheers
    Derek
    I think this is a great example of what people mean when they say they practice one thing for like six months before moving on. I have a couple of familiar starting places for a couple of these shapes, but if I really want to get lost all I have to do is say “OK, start on the major triad in a totally different position from where you are now when the key changes” and it all goes to hell very quickly. So I’ve started playing the now familiar GF patterns from the top down.

    I’ve also heard people recommend you play something until it becomes so boring you can’t stand it—till you basically force yourself to change one little thing to just keep it interesting. I think the key here is that over time it won’t take as long for that one little thing, whatever it is that you’re focusing on, to become boring.

  26. #225

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    Jordan Klemens has a great online course on drilling triads that would be a fantastic add on to this material. There were a couple of things he did in the format of his course that seemed like odd choices, but there is no denying it really helped me see triads fluently. I highly recommend it for anyone.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  27. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    Me, I'm driving up and down the motorway(not randomly! I'm on the way to work ) saying to myself "Gmin7 - G, Bb, D, F. Fmin7 - F, Ab, C, Eb" and so on. But without the guitar in hand it's tough! Maybe we should simply remember the shapes?

    What are folks doing?
    If it's Gm7 (or BbMaj, or Em7b5, or C7, or...), all I'm thinking is "Gm7 + extensions". This pool of notes can be played in a number ways all the way up the fretboard. When it switches to Ebm7, I think "Ebm7 + extensions". This gets easier the more you do it.

    In my opinion, one of the goals of A Melodic Approach is to get the player to stop overthinking things and get them playing melodies, using a pool of compatible notes. He describes where these notes come from in terms of stacked triads and so forth, but I think that is more to help the player understand the underlying theory, not that they should be actually thinking about those things when they're playing.

    Later, he expands the palette to include resolutions, enclosures, altered tones, and so on, but at this point I think it's more about getting the sounds and shapes drilled in, not about mental gymnastics and analysis paralysis.

  28. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    If it's Gm7 (or BbMaj, or Em7b5, or C7, or...), all I'm thinking is "Gm7 + extensions". This pool of notes can be played in a number ways all the way up the fretboard. When it switches to Ebm7, I think "Ebm7 + extensions". This gets easier the more you do it.

    In my opinion, one of the goals of A Melodic Approach is to get the player to stop overthinking things and get them playing melodies, using a pool of compatible notes.
    You mention pools of notes twice above - and I agree wholeheartedly. This is exactly what I'm doing / using. My question, however, remains, which is how is the group memorising where those pools of notes are for any Min7th chord without always going back to the root and/or the first triad shape?

    When I practice, say, Gmin7 to Ebmin7 I now know I can play the first Gmin7 shape (min triad) starting on the G note, 4th string, 5th fret, and then the second Ebmin7 triad (maj triad) starting on the Gb note, 4th string 4th fret. But the only way I know I can make this semi-tone step is because I've memorised the notes of the two chords, and this then points me to where the four triads start.

    I'm thinking I need to make two sets of cards - 12 (one for each chord), and 12 (for frets). Shuffle them, and deal two face up, and then practice finding the nearest triad shape for that chord at that position.

    I'm just wondering if there's a shortcut? I guess not

    On the plus side, I have 250 miles to drive tomorrow, so I'll memorise another chord!

  29. #228

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    Well if I understand the question/concern I have a few observations:

    1. Practice major scale diatonic arpeggios across and up the neck. (across means in position). Triads, Tetrads, Pentads etc. - but for this discussion just Triads. I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim, I

    2. This is Dorian mode based, so is a displaced major scale, so you can think of playing the triads as: ii, IV, vi, I

    3. Play root position ascending, from starting strings 6,5,4,3. Then descending too.

    4. You should have at least two arpeggio fingerings per starting string, per chord quality (Major, Minor, Diminished).

    5. Once you have that, you can practice random patterns/flash card drills with or without a helper. Meaning, they can call out any chord "I" "vi", "IV', whatever.


    All easier said than done of course, but this is just one chord plus three superimpositions. If you can handle 1-5 above you should have no problem.

  30. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    You mention pools of notes twice above - and I agree wholeheartedly. This is exactly what I'm doing / using. My question, however, remains, which is how is the group memorising where those pools of notes are for any Min7th chord without always going back to the root and/or the first triad shape?

    When I practice, say, Gmin7 to Ebmin7 I now know I can play the first Gmin7 shape (min triad) starting on the G note, 4th string, 5th fret, and then the second Ebmin7 triad (maj triad) starting on the Gb note, 4th string 4th fret. But the only way I know I can make this semi-tone step is because I've memorised the notes of the two chords, and this then points me to where the four triads start.

    I'm thinking I need to make two sets of cards - 12 (one for each chord), and 12 (for frets). Shuffle them, and deal two face up, and then practice finding the nearest triad shape for that chord at that position.

    I'm just wondering if there's a shortcut? I guess not

    On the plus side, I have 250 miles to drive tomorrow, so I'll memorise another chord!
    I have been using this diagram I made to help me see the whole fretboard as a Min7/9 + Extensions concept. Hope that helps

    WIllGarrison Fewell's Melodic Approach - Ch 1-2-willmilnetriadsfewell1-jpg

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    You mention pools of notes twice above - and I agree wholeheartedly. This is exactly what I'm doing / using. My question, however, remains, which is how is the group memorising where those pools of notes are for any Min7th chord without always going back to the root and/or the first triad shape?

    When I practice, say, Gmin7 to Ebmin7 I now know I can play the first Gmin7 shape (min triad) starting on the G note, 4th string, 5th fret, and then the second Ebmin7 triad (maj triad) starting on the Gb note, 4th string 4th fret. But the only way I know I can make this semi-tone step is because I've memorised the notes of the two chords, and this then points me to where the four triads start.

    I'm thinking I need to make two sets of cards - 12 (one for each chord), and 12 (for frets). Shuffle them, and deal two face up, and then practice finding the nearest triad shape for that chord at that position.

    I'm just wondering if there's a shortcut? I guess not

    On the plus side, I have 250 miles to drive tomorrow, so I'll memorise another chord!
    I'd suggest spending about 5-10 minutes a day just improvising freely on one pool of notes (e.g., Gm7 + extensions) up, down, and across the fretboard. Don't just play arpeggios up and down. Improvise melodies. Start phrases high, start phrases low, start phrases in the middle of the arpeggios, start phrases on an extension note (e.g., the 9th), try some leaps. It's really about just getting comfortable with these patterns.

    As for switching chords, I think the key is to know where those landmarks (Figs. 2.5 and 2.7) are on the fretboard, cold. Then when, for example, we change to Ebm7, you can instantly see where your nearest landmark is, and know what notes around that shape are available to you (and eventually, what they sound like).

    There is really no reason to make this more complicated than it needs to be at this point. GF is using baby steps for a reason.

  32. #231

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    Digger, are you familar with the "Connecting Game" guitar exercise? If not, I'll explain it. I think it would be very useful for gaining facility at connecting lines between chords.

  33. #232

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    Been working more on "Patterns for Jazz" this week. Thought I'd try and make something from the last portion of chapter two (-playing in four areas of the fingerboard.)


  34. #233

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    FWIW, I do believe playing these as triads rather than just a pool of notes can be helpful.

    I would suggest that for some it is fine to play these as arpeggiated triads; especially if you are still struggling in making changes in your solos. No, it won’t sound terribly hip. But hip sounds come when these basic tones are so natural and ingrained in your playing that you don’t even think about them. You will then naturally start varying the rhythm, connecting to other triads, incorporating passing tones, etc.

    Give yourself time sounding a bit robotic and boring. The point is to be able to make the changes easily and naturally without worrying about CST or even arpeggios + extensions by focusing on simple triads. Or at least that is what I got out of Garrison’s books.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  35. #234

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    Right on Mark, very creative.

  36. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Right on Mark, very creative.
    Thanks, Frank.
    I try to turn everything I learn into a song...

    By the way, you referenced the Joe Elliott book above. Well, the connecting game, which comes from that. I've been thinking of that lately with certain patterns I'm working on. I had a lot of trouble with my picking back when I was in that study group. The Tele seems to have helped with some of those issues. Time for a refresher...

  37. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Digger, are you familar with the "Connecting Game" guitar exercise? If not, I'll explain it. I think it would be very useful for gaining facility at connecting lines between chords.
    Well - I'd be interested....

  38. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Been working more on "Patterns for Jazz" this week. Thought I'd try and make something from the last portion of chapter two (-playing in four areas of the fingerboard.)
    Cool, Mark! Sounds like you'd have fun with a looper.

  39. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Cool, Mark! Sounds like you'd have fun with a looper.
    I think you're right about the Looper. Never played with one but more and more I'm thinking, "hey, why not?"

    Speaking of which, I thought there was just one Looper. (Or one maker of Looper, with more and less advanced versions.) But it seems I am wrong. Which one do you guys recommend? (Cheaper is better so long as it really works--it's for my practice, not live performance.)

  40. #239

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    If it's just for practice and not live looping, etc., the most popular choice is the basic Ditto Looper.

    DITTO LOOPER | Stompboxes | Guitar | TC Electronic | Categories | Music Tribe - TC Electronic

    That's what I have, and it works well for my needs.

  41. #240

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    "The Connecting Game" is what a Musician's Institute teacher called it. Others refer to it as "voice led arpeggios", "voice led chord outlines", "Guide Tone Lines", etc.

    Garrison Fewell's Chapter 7 starts the discussion with chords, Chapter 8 with lines, and it continues.

  42. #241

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    Connecting Game

    You can skip to the 4:00 minute mark if you want to skip the explanation and just see the connecting game over Elle chords (two bars per chord though).


  43. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Digger, are you familar with the "Connecting Game" guitar exercise? If not, I'll explain it. I think it would be very useful for gaining facility at connecting lines between chords.
    Hi Fep, no, not familiar. Would love to know more. Edit: looks like we posted at the same time!

    Made a little progress (but only a little) with my issue today - more later!

    Cheers
    Derek

  44. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    If it's just for practice and not live looping, etc., the most popular choice is the basic Ditto Looper.

    DITTO LOOPER | Stompboxes | Guitar | TC Electronic | Categories | Music Tribe - TC Electronic

    That's what I have, and it works well for my needs.
    Thanks.
    I was looking at that.
    Also a smaller looper with a USB port that allows loops to be downloaded to a PC. That seems useful. You can also upload loops to it. I think.
    My understanding is that the Ditto Looper only saves the last loop you made and only until you make a new one.
    The mini-one is not battery operated; you have to use an adapter. That's not a problem for me.

    Sorry! Something went wrong!

  45. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    If it's just for practice and not live looping, etc., the most popular choice is the basic Ditto Looper.

    DITTO LOOPER | Stompboxes | Guitar | TC Electronic | Categories | Music Tribe - TC Electronic

    That's what I have, and it works well for my needs.
    That looks good. A mini-model (by Rowin) has a USB port so one can download and upload loops. That seems to be a real plus.
    And it's less than half the price. Tempting....

    https://www.amazon.com/Rowin-Electri...9216474&sr=8-5

  46. #245

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    I’m a dunce. I thought Elle was the end of Chapter 2. The four-fret zone organizational approach after Elle ties this all together nicely. Almost wish GF had started with that.

  47. #246

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    Another Ditto fan here. You can even add overdubs on the fly. I did a demo for a friend many years ago (although you don't get to see the actual Ditto). Warning: no jazz content!



    Cheers
    Derek

  48. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Connecting Game
    Great stuff, Fep. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

    I did try to do something similar on Elle (moving to the closest note of the new triad pool) with each change, and I've also come across the concept on Sheryl Bailey's Truefire course - for which, once upon a time, I did learn all the arpeggios in a variety of positions for Autumn Leaves, but when it came to applying them in a "Connecting Game" logic in real time my brain started to smoulder and there was danger of Australian-like catastrophe.

    I do think there's something good here. For me, I think it will be good to start this with quarter notes at a (very) slow tempo and move through the changes of a given tune, before progressing to eighth notes.

    I've come to realise that I have some work to do away from the fretboard in learning, internalising, and making available instantly, all the notes in given chords / arpeggios. I know this for major chords, and I know all the notes on the fretboard. But I need to do it for all other chord types - starting with Min7 (to enable progress with GF). I'm assuming that GF assumed that his students would know this stuff - and it's a good assumption for jazz students. And from reading between the lines on the thread I think I might be the only one who's been too lazy (or hasn't previously found the need) to do this.

    Getting there, though!

    Cheers
    Derek

  49. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger

    I've come to realise that I have some work to do away from the fretboard in learning, internalising, and making available instantly, all the notes in given chords / arpeggios. I know this for major chords, and I know all the notes on the fretboard. But I need to do it for all other chord types - starting with Min7 (to enable progress with GF). I'm assuming that GF assumed that his students would know this stuff - and it's a good assumption for jazz students. And from reading between the lines on the thread I think I might be the only one who's been too lazy (or hasn't previously found the need) to do this.

    Getting there, though!

    Cheers
    Derek
    A couple of years back I bought the Ernie Hawkins "CAGED" DVD's, I'd seen the term CAGED all over the place on forums/cover of books etc but I genuinely had no idea of what it was.

    So having grasped the concept of there being the 5 chords that can played out of 5 shapes/positions, and that each chord is made up of of the 1st, 3rd & 5th degree I felt more than a little overwhelmed and wondered how I'd ever manage to "internalize, and make instantly available, all the notes in given chords / arpeggios! I still haven't truly mastered it, but now I just don't worry about it and I can work things out if need be (but I don't play on the fly with other guitarists/musicians).

    When it comes to what we're doing now, I certainly don't know all my min/maj 7 arpeggios off the top of my head, but I know that a min 7 is 1, b3, 5, b7, and I know where they are in relation to the 1.

    I'm not really offering any tips/advice here, just thinking out loud that having all this knowledge instantly available to my fingertips will a be a long term journey (as in a couple of years in my case - if ever!).

  50. #249

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    Thanks for the explanation, Frank - familir with the concept but didn't know it as "Connecting Game" but rather as "guide tone lines".

    As for a looper: I'm using the Ditto as well - good enough for me for practicing and teaching when I need a backing on the fly.

  51. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger
    Another Ditto fan here. You can even add overdubs on the fly. I did a demo for a friend many years ago (although you don't get to see the actual Ditto). Warning: no jazz content!



    Cheers
    Derek
    That sounds really good. Girl From The North Country? (I really like Roots/Folk Rock music)