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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Thanks so much for the answers. Especially for Mr. Carlton. Good music and sound. However, I can't hear the triads piars in particular. I don't know. Maybe I'm deaf?
    I don't think that using triads as an organising principle is really something that you necessarily hear (though I do think that often players who use the minor conversion thing have a certain sound, like Wes or early Pat). It's more of a way of thinking, and seeing, navigating, and making sense of the fretboard over changes.

    How do you use Fewell's triads? As many small shapes? - for example: I want play phrase with 11th so I use This shape. I want play phrase with 13th so I use this shape? Do you look at it this way?
    I use them as landmarks (as I mentioned in an earlier post). They are small shapes with options branching out from them. If you're actually thinking, "okay, I want to play a phrase with an 11th in it," the rest of the band is probably three or four measures down the road by now.

    How do you handle playing in different keys? For example, we can do simple 251 with one shape of Fewell's triads. But when we have 2 or 3 different 251s and we improvise, it's sometimes hard to know where I am and what traids to use. This is very very chellenging for me.
    Yeah, I think that's the whole point of all of this: The challenge of coming up with good melodic content over changing harmonic content. I guess the only thing to do is go slow, practice, and take it one step at a time. Don't rush the process. The book covers that eventually (e.g., the tune "Three Bee's"), but it is going to be tough going if you skip ahead.

    Regarding modern sounds, I'm of the opinion that a lot of it comes down to harmony, groove, and articulation as opposed to actual note choices. But if you are really anxious to get into more contemporary stuff, I mentioned on another thread that you might want to check out Fewell's other book. For example, by the second chapter he'll have you using substitutions to get a Lydian #11 sound over Maj7 chords. (And you can work with both books in parallel if you want, it doesn't need to be one followed by the other.)

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    That's related most probably: check the triads starting from G min with extensions and you'll get: Gmin (G - Bb - D), Bb (Bb - D - F), Dmin (D - F - A) and F ( F - A - C) - just different ways of looking at the same thing like superimposing a Dmin triad over a G minor chord or a Bb major chord for example....
    Yes, I see that. For Carol, the series continues: A-C-E (Am) C-E-G (C) E-G-Bb (Emb5) and back to G-Bb-D.

    You can run a similar series from the I chord (F: F Am C Emb5 Gm Bb Dm F) and the V (C: C Emb5 Gm Bb Dm F Am C). You can run it from the others too, for that matter, but there's a lot of material---and a lot of overlap!---in these three "stacks". (You don't have to start them from the first chord in the sequence either, or go all the way through it.)

  4. #28

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    Thanks to Jehu for the interesting answer. It's nice to hear how others see it.


    Do you play sweep picking using how the triads are built? I try it but it's not always easy


    The most important thing is probably to have all these triads under palaces and focus on playing melodies and motifs? Something like a Playstation Pad. Where you intuitively know that the triangle does IT. And the square does THAT. So I strive to know that this traid will give me SUCH effect, and another triad will give me a different effect.
    There are also alterations on the dominant chords ... A lot of work.


    Does anyone want to upload a fragment of their recording on which Fewell's triads are used? For now I'm doing baby steps so I won't brag

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Yes, I see that. For Carol, the series continues: A-C-E (Am) C-E-G (C) E-G-Bb (Emb5) and back to G-Bb-D.

    You can run a similar series from the I chord (F: F Am C Emb5 Gm Bb Dm F) and the V (C: C Emb5 Gm Bb Dm F Am C). You can run it from the others too, for that matter, but there's a lot of material---and a lot of overlap!---in these three "stacks". (You don't have to start them from the first chord in the sequence either, or go all the way through it.)
    Garrison Fewell will be adressing this in a later chapter when he he extends the G minor triad downwards to get Em7b5 and C7.

  6. #30

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    Okay I'm just hacking my way through this stuff and don't even know if I am on the right track with this but here goes anyway. Also apologies for skipping ahead but I found a few of the lines in Chapters 8 and 9 useful. The captions in the video show where in the book the licks come from.

    I hope it helps some of us and any suggestions/input welcome. Looking forward to other forum members contributions.


  7. #31

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    Very nice, gents!

    alltunes -- Awesome video, and a great illustration of how this material can be applied. The captions are really helpful. It really shows that even if you don't buy wholesale into Fewell's way of thinking, this book is a goldmine of material.

    Jazznylon -- Great stuff, you can really hear the triads working as a guiding principle in your lines. Nice chord melody of Elle!


    In the spirit of sharing, here are a couple of tracks that I made for our 'Practical Standards' threads a while back. These will have been heavily influenced by GF's book, as I was focusing on that at the time.



    This is the head and one chorus of soloing, so feel free to skip to halfway if you want to hear anything relevant to this thread.

  8. #32

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    Well done everybody!

    Looks like you all are fast forwarding ahead. I thought that at this time it was all about practicing and learning the exercises and sharing thoughts on them and on our respective progress. I'm currently working on the melody on page 13 - all 12 keys and different positions and fingerings.
    Last edited by TOMMO; 12-18-2019 at 04:16 AM.

  9. #33

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    Yeah my bad I just wanted to get into the playing thing right away lol. The pg. 13 melody I see as a great source for breaking them up into little 4-6 note licks and playing around with them. Having gone through the whole melody a couple of times already I then split them up and use them as licks (tbh I mostly speed them up and just add extra notes).

    Pg 12 exercise I see as a really great warmup in all 12 keys. I combine both fingerings in one go without stopping midway and it would pretty much take me throughout the whole fretboard (I play major 3rds tuning so I travel more alongside the neck). I will probably make a video of going through this specific exercise soon.

    Pg. 21-22 is a good resource for exploring alternate fingerings. Maybe a good idea would be to do each fingering in 12 keys going in sequential order. Lets say Fingering 1 in Key of C, then Fingering 2 in Key of F, then Fingering 3 in Key of Bb and so on into the night. I haven't tried it this way yet though so we'll see

  10. #34

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    Yes sorry for skipping ahead. I usually just grab bits out of books that I can assimilate into my everyday noodling. I'm usually way too lazy, impatient and or unskilled to work through exercises in cycles like so many books suggest.

    I've had this book for several years now and keep coming back to it always finding some new ideas. The stuff in chapters 4 and 5 is great too...melodic extensions over dominant chords...useful for blues.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    Yes sorry for skipping ahead. I usually just grab bits out of books that I can assimilate into my everyday noodling. I'm usually way too lazy, impatient and or unskilled to work through exercises in cycles like so many books suggest.

    I've had this book for several years now and keep coming back to it always finding some new ideas. The stuff in chapters 4 and 5 is great too...melodic extensions over dominant chords...useful for blues.
    I'm with you. The first time I worked through the book I was impatient myself and didn't work carefully enough through the examples and exercises.
    This study group makes me work with much more diligence and makes me aware what I have missed the first time around.
    You all go ahead as you want and have your fun and there's a lot of fun to be had throughout this book.

  12. #36

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    I'm no jazz musician, and certainly no improvising jazz guitarist, but I've been working with arpeggios recently and so the idea of working with triads around the fret-board seems to make sense to me (I think!) and so I've got myself a copy to join in the fun

    This is what I'm getting from it so far, and where I'm stuck already!

    We're given some easily identified chord shapes/patterns, playing through the II min (G min) and the I maj (F) over 2 octaves - these are making sense to me and I can see/recognize them, all good so far!

    P.13 melody, this is what I understand to be playing through triads, the maj & min shapes jumping out at me on the TAB (I couldn't help but peek down from the notation!).

    P.14 - 16, Ex 2.2 Cycle of 5ths, the triad patterns are becoming familiar now, given the root of the II min, I can play the exercise through familiarity of the sound even if I lose track of the actual notes I'm playing (need to slow down and think about that) but I can "see" which degree of the maj/min I'm on in relation to the root (whether this is a good or bad thing I'm not sure).

    Now to where I'm stuck - "Elle." Looking at the 4 steps on p.16:
    1) I can identify the notes of the extension - slowly , but I can identify them.
    2) Play the melody - we're getting to know each other :-)
    3) "Review the possible fingerings of the triads..." Errr... what triad fingerings? Am I taking it too literal? I'm hunting the TAB looking the familiar patterns but they're not there in the way that I could see them in the melody P.13! Am I missing something?

    Were it not for the 4 steps on p.16, I'd have plugged on regardless, but as it stands I can barely see any relation between what's been covered so far and "Elle" as written. It's not that I can't play the tune, but I don't sense that I'm using the triad fingerings and so have no idea of which degree I'm on in relation to the root.

    Can anyone clarify/spell out what it is I should be looking at?

    Many thanks.

  13. #37

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    First of all - welcome to the study group. As for "Elle": as far as I understand it the melody is just something to get you started and we're expected to improvise our own melodies over the changes (4). "Review the possible fingerings etc... for each minor7 chord" refers to exactly that: review the fingerings and use them for your own improvisation.

  14. #38

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    Just wondering what everybody thinks about when to progress past the 2.3 cycle of fifths exercise. I think it’s one thing to be able to recall triads when played in this specific order (down a fifth) over and over again, but an entirely different matter knowing how to grab them in some largely unfamiliar key intuitively in the middle of a tune.

    I’ve realized that I have digested the “shapes”, however I have not digested even so much as the actual name of the particular triad from the pair that I’m playing at any given time, let alone being able to, say, start playing from the middle note of the IM major triad instead of the root of the iim triad.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Just wondering what everybody thinks about when to progress past the 2.3 cycle of fifths exercise. I think it’s one thing to be able to recall triads when played in this specific order (down a fifth) over and over again, but an entirely different matter knowing how to grab them in some largely unfamiliar key intuitively in the middle of a tune.

    I’ve realized that I have digested the “shapes”, however I have not digested even so much as the actual name of the particular triad from the pair that I’m playing at any given time, let alone being able to, say, start playing from the middle note of the IM major triad instead of the root of the iim triad.
    I'm in the "Review and keep moving on" camp...

    After getting to know Ex 2.1, I got started on the first 4 bars of P.13 Melody.

    Next time I came back to the book, it would be Ex 2.1 a couple of times, first 4 bars of the melody a couple of times, then the next 4 bars... just familiarizing myself with it, not necessarily playing to perfection (though that would be nice!).

    And on to Cycle of 5ths, so now when I come back to the book, it's Ex 2.1, melody, then some cycle 5th , I don't go through it all every time, and tend to start and finish at different points, but I'm getting familiar with it.

    I've just managed to "play my way" through chapt 2, that's not to say I can play it all perfectly, but I know in my head now what I need to be doing for the next month or so rather than get held up trying to perfect the cycle of 5th exercise...

    That's my approach for now at least...

  16. #40

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    Coming back to the book after some time is nice, like seeing an old friend. I really appreciate the fingerings he provided and I've been using them a lot in my own improvisations.

    Since the nature of the material is triads it's only natural that there's tons of supplemental material. I saw this video the other day and Rick shows a really simple way to build the major scale (minus the natural 7) with just two triads. C major/Dminor and their inversions. I've been working these out on string sets 1-3 and 2-4... and for me it's connecting nicely with this book.



    I'll post more specifically GF related stuff I swear! I just found this right in line so wanted to share.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Just wondering what everybody thinks about when to progress past the 2.3 cycle of fifths exercise. I think it’s one thing to be able to recall triads when played in this specific order (down a fifth) over and over again, but an entirely different matter knowing how to grab them in some largely unfamiliar key intuitively in the middle of a tune.
    A good thing to do is say the name of the triads out loud. I picked this up from Carol Kaye's material. She has an exercise (-it's also in "Patterns for Jazz") where you play up a 7th chord (Say, CM7) then down the next (say, Dm7) then up the next (Em7) and down the next (FM7) and so on. She says to say the names of the triads out loud and do this 8x a day for a few weeks, If you do that, you know them a lot better. (It also keeps your mind from wandering.)

    I find it easier to think in numbers, though such as I ii iii IV and so on. It takes much longer to SAY "B minor 7 flat 5" than it does to play the arpeggio. I wish they all had one-syllable names so that you could have a steady rhythm of saying the names. So a lot of times I say the numbers (and instead of "seven" say "se'm" which is a quirky Southern thing.) That's much easier. And it's where one wants to end up, I think, but it's good to know the chords in the key by name too.

    Anyway, this is the exercise I'm giving the most attention to now. Are those F#m / E triads tricky or what?

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael-m
    I'm in the "Review and keep moving on" camp...
    Yeah, me too. I think this chapter is mostly about just getting comfortable with these shapes, and then the book continues to build on them from there. At this point it's more about conceptualising/visualising than about technical perfection.

    ("And now that you don't have to be perfect, you can be good." - John Steinbeck)

    Somewhat relatedly, as a warmup I like to spend a few minutes just noodling through the shapes/extensions in one key (e.g., Gm), coming up with little phrases and melodies, and slowly working my way up and down the fretboard. This really helps to lock in how the shapes are connected, and how to get away from always starting from the root of the minor triad.

    Also keep in mind that we're planning to stick with this chapter through January (as many people will have things like family and holiday craziness interfering more important guitar-related activities), so there's no huge rush.

  19. #43

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    I have a feeling I am definitely going to be bring up the rear in this group! Great to see how folks are moving ahead, way ahead !!!. For myself I have in the past flipped open lots of books and articles and fished around looking for what I thought were the tasty bits and missed or ignored the fundamentals . I promised myself I would not do that this time as I feel this is an approach/concept that really opens a door I would like to walk through.

    Since I cant read notation , I decided I would complicate my life and do this while also learning notation ) I've always been frustrated by being limited to tab , as there are soooo!!! many tunes I like available in notation only. So far so ok The concepts and fingering are pretty simple in Ch1-2 . The triad fingerings/positions presented seem very particular !!! I am trusting that they form a framework that gets expanded. There are soooo!!! many variations of the min/maj triad combinations available that are not covered my fingers are getting itchy!!!.

    I think I am going to get to the end of chapter 2 skipping " Elle" and then come back to " Elle" and record some ideas and see what I might have learned or not

    Will
    Last edited by WillMbCdn5; 12-19-2019 at 10:13 PM.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarmek
    I saw this video the other day and Rick shows a really simple way to build the major scale (minus the natural 7) with just two triads. C major/Dminor and their inversions. I've been working these out on string sets 1-3 and 2-4... and for me it's connecting nicely with this book.
    I stumbled across that one the other day myself and immediately connected it with G.F.'s material - not exactly the same but related, I'd say.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    A good thing to do is say the name of the triads out loud.
    I think that's important so you don't just go through memorized patterns but always relate them to the musical side of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Anyway, this is the exercise I'm giving the most attention to now. Are those F#m / E triads tricky or what?
    They feel a bit uncomfortable at first but I found out that they open the fretboard for me and get me out of the positions that have been applied for the keys before.
    I'm making it a point to extend the exercises a bit by playing each key and fingering in ascending order as in the book as well as descending. Also going through the cycle twice so that each key will be played in each of the suggested fingerings. Can get a bit tiring sometimes but I'm sure it's worth it.



    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5

    I think I am going to get to the end of chapter 2 skipping " Elle" and then come back to " Elle" and record some ideas and see what I might have learned or not

    Will
    When working through the book for the first time a couple of years ago I skipped some stuff or didn't really work with it - big mistake. There's a lot to be learned by playing "Elle" for example. Currently I'm taking it through the cycle.

  21. #45

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    Fingerings.
    Fewell fingers some of these things in a way I would not have chosen, but after experimenting with his suggestions I see the point. Still takes some getting used to. So that's where I am. Hanging in on chapter 2 for the maximum time alotted. ;o)

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Fingerings.
    Fewell fingers some of these things in a way I would not have chosen, but after experimenting with his suggestions I see the point. Still takes some getting used to. So that's where I am. Hanging in on chapter 2 for the maximum time alotted. ;o)
    I'm making it a point to milk all exercises as much as I can this time around. As for fingerings: He often speaks of "two possible fingerings" to use for sample phrases and exercises. I'm sure that he wants the reader/student to not be satisfied with just two and find more. I alway had the feeling that there are "hidden" lessons that are there but not obvious at first sight. That first melody: we are being introduced to syncopation already and to 3/4 time (which I'm having a hard time to feel) for example. "Elle": introducing bossa rhythm - all this before we get to play 4/4 and swing eighths.

  23. #47

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    I have two opinions about fingerings in this book and beyond.

    1. Fewell indicates fingerings that are more "Wes like". Meaning, he eschews the 4th finger in favor of the 3rd. Well, I've been trained/conditioned to use my pinky so will probably opt out of the Wes fingerings in a lot of places. Using the 3rd finger for bends (of course) or for playing certain phrases seems logical, and especially on a short scale guitar or when playing up high on the fretboard in "bunchy" fret space. But on a long scale guitar using the 3rd finger can require a small shift or stretch, so feels less logical to me. So I think using the pinky where Fewell indicates the 3rd is just "the players choice".

    2. Two optimal or near optimal fingerings for any given phrase or idea is good. Three is probably better. That said, some pros and teachers will tell you that depending on the range of the phrase, it should be 5,7,9,12 places etc. Well, I think that's ideal but I don't actually believe it's mandatory. A lot of great players over history seem to have used "limiting" to support their best playing. Call it pragmatism if you like.

    I think it's much more productive for a developing player to learm more ideas with fewer fingerings than fewer ideas with many fingerings. One can always expand later, and with a larger vocabulary to boot.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 12-20-2019 at 10:35 PM.

  24. #48

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    One thing I do like about GF’s fingerings is that they seemed designed to encourage movement up and down the fretboard in ways that conventional CAGED positions don’t. Rather than locking you into the positional CAGED mindset, which I think feels somewhat rigid until you force yourself to break free from it, GF’s fingerings *from the beginning* give you an expanded range of motion.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    I stumbled across that one the other day myself and immediately connected it with G.F.'s material - not exactly the same but related, I'd say.
    Yup! Related, not the same at all. Inversions vs extensions. It's helping me see the chords in Fewell's patterns.

  26. #50

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    Wow! Thank You for the samples of Yours playing Fewell's triads. Pro sound. I will show my samples when i get some time for playing in xmass free days. Best regards All ))