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  1. #1

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    I've been reviewing all the solos I've learned using the Jimmy Raney/Jamey Aebersold Vol. 20 set--9 solos to date! I was reminded that the solo based on "Out of Nowhere" is my favorite of them all, even though I love them all. But somehow, this solo strikes me as the definition of a "musical" solo. Lots of licks for sure, lots of scalar passages, but this thing has 64 measures of relentless build-up that culminates in what I think is a very lovely closing 16 bars or so. The use of tension/release is very skillful. Plus, you can use theory to "explain" why this solo works, but no theory would have predicted playing it. It's pure Jimmy Raney.

    So here's me playing the solo with a few clams, but I would like to put it out there to raise the question: what makes an improvised solo "musical" and even pretty, even beautiful? Even playing it by rote, as I do here, I can really feel something happening in the music. I would really like to nail down just what makes it work, and figure out how to get more of that into my own playing.


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  3. #2

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    Well, first of all, it's Jimmy Raney

    I'm going to do a closer listen and give a deeper response later, but off the bat I can hear that there's some ideas, contour wise, that Jimmy returns to several times, with slight variations, yes, but similar ideas rhythmically. I creates a sense of continuity.

    The solo also has kind of a clear "shape" to it, yes, building towards those last bars you mention. There's a sense of purpose to it.

    Lawson, I notice when you play these Raney solos, you let a lot of notes ring together when you go "across strings." Is that they way they're written? I ask, because I never heard Jimmy do that much on record. It's not a bad thing, just an observation.

  4. #3

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    “Lyrical” might be more specific than “musical.” And by that I mean melody line and phrasing that’s very singable and feel almost like a conversation with the natural flow and phrasing that you might use in telling a story. At least, that’s what I shoot for, with varying degrees of success. This solo has those characteristics—except for one or two spots where a singer might run out of breath! Since you learned it by rote maybe you don’t have quite the natural flow of the original yet, but it’s a lot better than I could do. Sounds great!

  5. #4

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    Jim's Hall's opening chorus on "Under My Skin" on the Undercurrent recording with Bill Evans is a new melody to an old standard that could stand on its own for musicality, in my view. Kenny Burrell played lots of musical solos with Jimmy Smith, a great contrast to Smith's (quite musical) virtuosity. Bickert with Desmond on "Just Squeeze Me" stays in my mind forever, as does Wes's 4 On 6 solo on the Live at the Half-Note CD. The first solo I heard that seemed to me to be an amazing "composition" was Jim Hall's on Stompin' At The Savoy" with Art Farmer, also Live at the Half Note, I believe.

  6. #5

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    In my observation, people tend to say something sounds "musical" in order to contrast it something they perceive to be more like an intellectual exercise or something contrived for effect or just for the sake of doing it. But that itself is mainly subjective. One man's "musical" is another's "glib."

    I guess if I were to try to sum up what I find musical in improvisation, I would say playing that makes its compositional logic clear, exploits the instrument's timbral and articulation possibilities, and communicate something about the musician. There are lots of different ways to do that -- for instance, a solo that has an arc to it (clear beginning, middle and end), interplay between space and density, dynamics, building to points of harmonic tension and release, communication will draw me in. Wes is one of the clearest, most explicit examples of that idea of musicality. I feel like by listening to Wes, I know him -- he's telling stories that reveal who he is, what he believes in and thinks about, and enjoys. People who can do that, to me, are playing musically. There are all kinds of devices, approaches, techniques, etc, that serve that end, though.

    John

  7. #6

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    Motives
    Tension and release
    Smooth melodic lines
    Antecedent/consequent phrasing (call and response)
    Melodic Sequences

    Building to a climax (some tools - repitition, increased speed or activity/busyness, ascending range, crescendo)
    Letting the climax go back down (reduction of speed and busyness, descending range, decrescendo)


    In this particular solo (1 listen) I heard smooth lines, and if i'm not mistaken one melodic quote.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, first of all, it's Jimmy Raney

    I'm going to do a closer listen and give a deeper response later, but off the bat I can hear that there's some ideas, contour wise, that Jimmy returns to several times, with slight variations, yes, but similar ideas rhythmically. I creates a sense of continuity.

    The solo also has kind of a clear "shape" to it, yes, building towards those last bars you mention. There's a sense of purpose to it.

    Lawson, I notice when you play these Raney solos, you let a lot of notes ring together when you go "across strings." Is that they way they're written? I ask, because I never heard Jimmy do that much on record. It's not a bad thing, just an observation.
    That shaping business is the thing that interests me. And yes, I tend to let sweeps ring and he doesn't. I've tried to learn how to stop doing that, but at the tempos he sets, it's very hard! I think also he's using different fingerings at some points. I hear things I slur that he picks, other things I pick that he slurs. Honestly playing these solos I feel like I'm a B team player working out with the pros. Just finding the notes is challenging. But for sure, that ringing sweep stuff is an issue I've actually identified.

    Thanks for that confirmation!

  9. #8

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    I am way far to be able to do any of the following I am about to describe, but I think at least I am starting to understand what is the goal. This may or may not apply exactly the quoted Jimmy Raney solo.

    There are many cliches what point to the same direction: tell a story, or make statements. But how? Those were always too abstract for me, not helping to get closer, but I always thought that those words are deeply true. So I concluded to have a close analogy with speech. Speech has sentences.

    And sentences are more easier to understand I mean the how to. For example they must have a start and an end. No continuous endless flow. There must be a pause after to emphasize the content. In real life smetimes a sentence repeats the prev exactly, maybe with different accents, sometimes a sentence picks up exactly where the previous ended, etc there are tons of analogy here what can be examined and translated to music.

    I am trying to hear sentences when listening and trying to have sentence ideas when improvising. The more analogy to the human speech the better. This is related and according to what Kirk exposed about to be lyrical.

    The other cliche is melody. But again how? The most helpful for me is Mark’s tagline about learning the repertoire, if you learn 200 songs... With other words to be able to produce melodies one must ingrain melodies. So I believe this, it’s only a few decades to go and I will accomplish this.
    Last edited by Gabor; 11-16-2019 at 01:27 AM.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    That shaping business is the thing that interests me. And yes, I tend to let sweeps ring and he doesn't. I've tried to learn how to stop doing that, but at the tempos he sets, it's very hard! I think also he's using different fingerings at some points. I hear things I slur that he picks, other things I pick that he slurs. Honestly playing these solos I feel like I'm a B team player working out with the pros. Just finding the notes is challenging. But for sure, that ringing sweep stuff is an issue I've actually identified.

    Thanks for that confirmation!
    You are sounding better and better all the time. I second Jeff’s observation. I think separating out the notes will take your playing to the next level.

    You could try using different fingers for adjacent notes if the barre are hard to separate.

    I would suggest working on only that if you can bear it for a period. You have to unpick the muscle memory a bit.

  11. #10

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    This is one of my favorite jazz solos, Sonny Stitt's opening solo on "Sunny Side of the Street" with Diz and Sonny Rollins.

    I think this is about as good as it gets. (I know it makes me a heretic but I don't care much for Jimmy Raney's soloing. I know he's great, better than I'll ever be, all that, no question, but in large chunks it doesn't hold my interest like Wes, Charlie Christian, Kessell and Herb Ellis do.)


  12. #11

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    Raney's solo on OON strikes me as masterful in the way each phrase is balanced with the next. It's singable and it breathes.

    [Talking about music = dancing about architecture.]

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You are sounding better and better all the time. I second Jeff’s observation. I think separating out the notes will take your playing to the next level.

    You could try using different fingers for adjacent notes if the barre are hard to separate.

    I would suggest working on only that if you can bear it for a period. You have to unpick the muscle memory a bit.
    Thanks for that encouragement. I have been thinking about this specific matter for some time. Each of these solos has a few sweeps that definitely don't ring like chords when JR plays them, and I just sweep 'em and let them ring. I've separated out a few of those from a couple of the solos and started working on them to articulate the notes cleanly. Hard to do without it becoming staccato like.

  14. #13

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    Lawson,

    You have been very diligent in your approach to playing transcribed solos, and we have to believe that the learning occurs on a subconscious level. But now as you improvise your own solos, you have to rely on tools to create your own melodic lines. I'm doing the same work, and man ... this is really, really hard and it just takes time.

    If you happen to have a copy of Aerbersold's Volume 1 for Jazz Guitar (adapted by Corey Christiansen), you will find some excellent guidance on pages 70-72, particularly around the notion tension and release. The author uses a diagram to visualize how the shaping occurs.

    What's cool about using a formula, or a visual (like the one in Volume 1), is that's a bit easier to keep in mind when soloing which, for me, is an instinctive process that applies all I've learned about scales, tones, tempos, and the application of ideas you've borrowed from Jimmy and Doug ... as well as your own.

    A couple of others idea: play tunes you know very well so you keep the form and are playing good notes through the changes without hesitating. And record your solos and listen back so you can hear what's working and what's not. I know from reading your posts that you don't perform, but do you have another guitarist you jam with? It helps a lot if you can. Trading 8's and 4's, listening to what the other is playing and mirroring ... it's all really good stuff.

    Thanks for your contributions to the forum and for your inspirations on all fronts.

  15. #14

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    I think there can be different good things happening that would make a solo musical and not be all in one at all.
    Sometimes the solo just talks, makes sense.. and be nothing too special in any other way. Sometimes it flows so well. Sometimes it has a tune-like quality. Sometimes it just grooves so well. Sometimes it has a real fire. Or have a certain spark in each note whatever that might be.. that's kinda mystical - I'd trade one of my legs to have it always plugged on.
    I believe there is more. But how to get there.. damn.

  16. #15

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    My advice is lay back behind the pulse a tiny bit and also accent "+" more ( pizazz) .
    It sounds a little rushed and too evenly accented to me.
    And accent peak notes. Avoid letting notes ring together. Don't let each phrase to run into the next, try to make each phrase sound like it takes a tiny breath before the next phrase, otherwise it can sound like run on sentances.

  17. #16

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    So the comments about playing across the strings and letting them ring-which was more a limitation of my technique than a musical choice!—had me thinking and practicing these days. This is a first attempt at the same solo to address that in 2 or 3 spots. I had to slow the solo down, so that it almost falls out of the pocket. My problem now is not to sound staccato or pizzicato in those spots. Your observations and comments can be a big help, and are much appreciated.

    Meanwhile, I'm not sure that what makes a solo "musical" is just a list of features or techniques. This solo, and really, all the Raney solos in the Aebersold book, as a grand logic over the whole thing that impresses me that seems bigger than a few tips or boxes to check. Maybe it's just as someone said, "It's Jimmy Raney." Still, to the extent that genius can be imitated, it's worth pondering what might make such a solo work.

    Thanks for your thoughts.


  18. #17

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    Let's not forget dynamics. When I try to figure why I like Larry Carlton, one of the reasons is his use of dynamics. Loud to soft, soft to loud, dynamics inside a phrase. And timbre too. And being locked into the pocket, that's huge too... note choice is great buy it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.


  19. #18

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    I think getting control of how in and how out
    you are is a thing to go for and get control of ...

    like , keep the the form , go out weird shit for a bit
    come back in and play pretty things for a bit
    and keep the form ... controling that

    that makes it somewhat musical for me

  20. #19

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    The best way to discover why Jimmy Raney sounded so much more musical than other players was to catch him live in a club, where he's playing with another guitarist, and compare what Raney did in the same situation as another guitarist.

    The other guitarist sounded forced, and sounded like he was just trying to shove as many notes into each bar as he could, while Raney sounded just the opposite. It doesn't matter who was playing with him, any aspect of their playing that sounded unmusical would be magnified by having to follow, or being followed by Raney.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    The best way to discover why Jimmy Raney sounded so much more musical than other players was to catch him live in a club, where he's playing with another guitarist, and compare what Raney did in the same situation as another guitarist.

    The other guitarist sounded forced, and sounded like he was just trying to shove as many notes into each bar as he could, while Raney sounded just the opposite. It doesn't matter who was playing with him, any aspect of their playing that sounded unmusical would be magnified by having to follow, or being followed by Raney.
    I don’t know I always thought Cal Collins was a good pair with Raney.


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  22. #21

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    [QUOTE=lawson-stone;989860]I don’t know I always thought Cal Collins was a good pair with Raney.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE

    That's what's amazing about raney. I always liked the way Cal played, and even caught him live once at Bechet's in NYC, but hearing him with Raney in a group with bass and drums, Cal sounded like he was overdoing it with the country pentatonic patterns. I probably wouldn't have been bothered by it so much if I heard Cal alone, but Raney had a way of making even great players like Cal seem like they weren't playing as musically meaningful lines as he was.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I was reminded that the solo based on "Out of Nowhere" is my favorite of them all, even though I love them all

    Thanks, very nice, one of may favorite tunes, always calling it at sessions.

  24. #23

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    Yes, this take swings a bit more with the more laid-back tempo. Nice job, L-S!

  25. #24

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    Is there anywhere to hear Jimmy actually playing this?

    Jimmy's 8ths were pretty even, especially earlier in his career, but he'd lay back just a little...not as much as some bluesier players, but just enough to really swing.

    You kinda seem right on the beat, or even a little ahead. Makes it sound a little less relaxed...I think maybe some of the magic in Raney's playing you might be looking for.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Is there anywhere to hear Jimmy actually playing this?
    Not really, the track where Jimmy plays this specific solo is only available on the CD that comes with the Aebersold book.
    Last edited by grahambop; 11-21-2019 at 06:29 PM.