The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    I wondering where do you think Peter Bernstein took and metamorphed his phrases from, because his approach to soloing is pretty unique. He obviously digs Monk, but this influence is not like that what grahambop described, more like harmonic.
    This is what he said he did. He copped a lot of Grant Green apparently.

    I think it’s easier to hear in his early playing.

    Nowadays I think he mostly makes up music on his guitar.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2019 at 03:32 AM.

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  3. #77

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    The detail and depth of your comments on this solo, both on my playing of it, on the solo itself, and on the general topic I raised, have spurred me to put some material out there that might push the conversation a bit (maybe?). This is the solo played "at tempo" with Jimmy Raney in the right channel and me in the left channel. The Notation for the solo captions the video so you can see what's being played (theoretically) and hear Raney's interpretation and compare/constrast with my hashing of it. Then I play through it a second time, just me, because, well, it's my clip and I can! Actually this is an attempt to play it even-eighths rather than try to swing it with old dotted-eigth concept. I don't know that this is any better, but there you are.

    I've added the measure numbers to the notation to make it easy to refer to.

    I always appreciate the observations and advice of the denizens of this forum.


  4. #78

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    1) Right, I’m learning that
    2) yes better straight like that than fake dotted swing. You need to find the pocket still which takes me to point 3
    3) the Empire Strikes Back contains an important lesson for jazz guitarists (so does the Last Jedi, but that’s for later) which I keep having to remind myself and took me over 30 years to understand. Really understand, and apply.

    There is no try. Stop trying to swing. Stop trying to execute, relax and let the notes come. You don’t need to make them happen. The body is wiser than you think.

    Also Hal Galper is Yoda.

    Sure I could bang on about the zen gardens in Kyoto or some **** but who am I kidding? It’s 5 year old me watching Star Wars.

  5. #79

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    I like the second time. Getting there.

    When I started to play more in the pocket, it feels sometimes a little bit sloppy or crude timing wise like its too lazy. And then you hear it back and it sounds right.

    If that helps...

  6. #80

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    When I say 'musical' I have strong understanding what is behind this word.

    In short: music is an artistic system that allows us to create meanings if we know and master its language.

    When we read Dickens or Faulkner (considering we are sensitive readers with imagination) we do not read words - we live in their world with their heroes.
    I read a lot as a kid and when grown up I could not alwaysunderstand if some memories I have are what really happened to me or from the book - I remember images, situations, people - but not words.
    (Eventually I came to understanding that it is all my life and there is not need to try to separate these memories)

    I treat music the same way: of course words have more direct connotations of meanoning but still in musical performance I hear first of all not sounds, not even correctly and well-played motives but meanings (I do not want to say images or stories - becasue this can be very induvidual).

    In short - for me 'musical' is when I clearly hear that the performer understands the language and uses it to create something else...

    In my opinion in music it is mostly expressed in the time feel (not rythm or meter) but time as combination of all relations melodic, harmonic, metric... it's the feeling when soundscape becomes almost touchable, you can feel the time flow physically.
    It is like watching a complex cathedral walking around it - it is always there and stands still but it always changes.
    Maybe this comparison fits more classical music.

    In jazz it is almost always some type of narrative intonation... when I feel melodic soloing as a good narrator speech - with its breath, pauses - where every 'word' (not note but a meaningful musical entity like a phrase or a motive or an episode) has its weight of personal experience behind... daring and challenge, attempts and risks are the part of personality too...
    an artistic courage ...


    Speaking of Jimmy - my revelation was his solo on But Beautiful - I was just breathless.

    But in general it is mostly about the performer - it is very seldom the performer who plays musically - does not do that. It may be that in some records he is more creative, in some more exhausted... but usually the basic thing (that time feel) that makes him musical for me is always there...

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like the second time. Getting there.

    When I started to play more in the pocket, it feels sometimes a little bit sloppy or crude timing wise like its too lazy. And then you hear it back and it sounds right.

    If that helps...
    I am not sure that it is what you mean... but when I record I find that if I force myself a bit forward..... to go what I naturally feel a bit ahead...
    then on record it sounds well... (when I don't it sounds sometimes too much behind)...

    In my opinion it is some kind of personal relation of perception and physical coordination...

    On the other hand - when there were no records and people just heard it right now and that was it.. did it matter?

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I am not sure that it is what you mean... but when I record I find that if I force myself a bit forward..... to go what I naturally feel a bit ahead...
    then on record it sounds well... (when I don't it sounds sometimes too much behind)...

    In my opinion it is some kind of personal relation of perception and physical coordination...

    On the other hand - when there were no records and people just heard it right now and that was it.. did it matter?
    Well I tend to play on top, so to relax into the pocket feels/felt strange to me. I remember when I first got it and I remember feeling ‘well this feels gnarly.’ Sounds like you have the opposite problem.

    Anything you are not used to doing feels weird.

    OTOH you can’t just play loose and sloppy. You have to have a strong idea of the rhythms and phrases in your mind’s ear. If you audiate strongly enough and you e practiced the technique etc your body will take over.

    It’s just that you don’t need to make them happen, force them out of the guitar. It’s easy to think this sounds rhythmically assertive, but actually it just sounds on top.

    But this is very much like singing. Again trying to control your sound is a bad idea, you have to step back and relinquish control, once the physical skills are mastered.

  9. #83

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    Well I tend to play on top, so to relax into the pocket feels/felt strange to me. I remember when I first got it and I remember feeling ‘well this feels gnarly.’ Sounds like you have the opposite problem.
    It is interesting that when I hear you playing alone you sound like an agile brisky and very forward-headed player.
    But wehen I hear you in a group you sound very much laid back (sometimes too much to my ear).


    It’s just that you don’t need to make them happen, force them out of the guitar. It’s easy to think this sounds rhythmically assertive, but actually it just sounds on top.
    For me this word 'actually' is what makes feel a bit crazy... is record more actual than what I (and audience) hear when I play it? (Again record changed both performer's and listner's mentality).

    I think there is much about it in the personal feel of time - that is why playing in a group can be very different experience... and some players who can be convincing solo player - can be not always that good in a groop (at least at the beginning... usually ofc ourse good musicians accomodate themselves quickly). Because they are just not used to coordinate their own timing with others.

    I always had problem of being a bit 'late' in a group... (it was anywhere -- in an army band, in a group, in a choire)...
    I connect it with my general physiology: I speak and walk slowly, I am not use to physically transfer internal imbulses in body panguage.

    ( I am not sure it is connected ... but I also tend to like super slow tempos... to be at the point where the connection seems to fall apart)

    At the same time I react and think very quickly (quick than most fast people I know, oftne I feel like I have 'to come back' or to wait for people to pick it up)...
    I do not know what it is and how it works...

    When I listen to music I also hear it very detalized - sometimes to an extent as if I can almost stop it.. you know like reading a book - you can make a pause or slowdown if you wish... I have almost the same feeling when I listen to music (though I do not stop the playback of course).



    At the same time I noticed that in group I can easily correct it once I just get myself more got together physically... so maybe it is really a connection of mind and body as medium.

  10. #84

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    and I am not really sure that recording yourself is a good tool for correction of mistakes...
    for me on the contrary it is a compromise.
    The fact that I do not like myself recorded does not always mean for me that I played it badly.
    Especially if I felt it was good while playing.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    and I am not really sure that recording yourself is a good tool for correction of mistakes...
    for me on the contrary it is a compromise.
    The fact that I do not like myself recorded does not always mean for me that I played it badly.
    Especially if I felt it was good while playing.
    Recording myself is a painful but good tool to hear myself with a new second pair of ear. Especially when I relisten the recording after a week or more. It helps to cut all unnecessary and meaningless “style” parts, for example overused embellishments, badly interpreted rhythmic idioms. It also helps to recognize the parts what I thought musical when played are no so musical for the listener, because the thought was only in my mind, and not went through.

    Human psyche has guard mechanisms, but your sentence about The fact...

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    It is interesting that when I hear you playing alone you sound like an agile brisky and very forward-headed player.
    But wehen I hear you in a group you sound very much laid back (sometimes too much to my ear)
    Interesting. I do adjust my beat placement based on style and so on, even within a solo. If I play swing I need to be much more on top. Modern/contemporary jazz is more behind the beat. Raney to me defined the modern jazz guitar aesthetic really early on. I hear a line going from him right up to Kurt via Allan Holdsworth who loved his playing. Allan didn’t play swing feel much but when he did he was a champion lagger, hanging off the arse end of the beat very much like Raney.

    But there is a sweet spot. You want to be locking in to something not just floating around.

    (If you said the latter to the Hot Club Band I do they’d be like .... whaaaa? Christian rushes.)

    It all depends on context. The Hot Club thing for instance comes with a lot of expectations attached. One of them is to play lots of notes and to push the beat and play more locked in with the downbeat, hit the string hard, make something happen. I’m slowly letting go of these....

  13. #87

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    The other secret is knowing what to lag and what not to lag.... some things have to be locked in with the beat. One thing that makes earlier jazz sound more brisk and locked in is they play more quarter notes and on beat accents. These have to be on the beat or even pushed to sound swinging.

    On the other hand long strings of 8ths can have upbeat accents and the connecting 8ths can really be behind the beat.

    The triplet is an interesting feature. It is always on the beat and exact. In bebop it acts as a way of creating rhythmic energy that pushes and pulls.

  14. #88

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    That said I don’t think you need to be that anal about it. I reckon if you lock the accents of the line into the swing 8th grid, you can then play nice and even and the result will sound good. The secret is (I think) to see the rhythmic emphasis embedded in an 8th note line. Raney is interesting for this....

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    The detail and depth of your comments on this solo, both on my playing of it, on the solo itself, and on the general topic I raised, have spurred me to put some material out there that might push the conversation a bit (maybe?). This is the solo played "at tempo" with Jimmy Raney in the right channel and me in the left channel. The Notation for the solo captions the video so you can see what's being played (theoretically) and hear Raney's interpretation and compare/constrast with my hashing of it. Then I play through it a second time, just me, because, well, it's my clip and I can! Actually this is an attempt to play it even-eighths rather than try to swing it with old dotted-eigth concept. I don't know that this is any better, but there you are.

    I've added the measure numbers to the notation to make it easy to refer to.

    I always appreciate the observations and advice of the denizens of this forum.

    Now that's a "chorus" effect I can get behind! And the solo take was nice and relaxed. Thanks, Lawson - nice job!

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like the second time. Getting there.

    When I started to play more in the pocket, it feels sometimes a little bit sloppy or crude timing wise like its too lazy. And then you hear it back and it sounds right.

    If that helps...
    Often it seems like when I play with the best feel, I miss a lot of notes, it isn't clean, etc. Thank you for helping think that maybe that's progress!