The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Hello all,

    I've been working for about a year with a teacher online. It's really tough (for me) stuff about being able to play any arpeggio or extension on any chord.

    I come from playing bass so have forever had a kind of bottom four mentality on the guitar which has always been a problem. A couple of months ago I started working on a II-V exercise I wrote that goes through every permutation of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 on three different II V progressions.

    I really wanted to figure out the meaty area of the guitar so I limited it to frets 5-10 and always trying to play the highest possible arpeggio in that space.

    I'm attaching the exercise I made. I also want to be able to play these all descending too.

    Anyway, it's just amazingly frustrating. I do wonder if there's something wrong with my brain. I'm trying to memorize this one sheet of paper and it's just killing me. Partly to do with the chord shapes changing because of the third interval between G/B. Partially because I'm having a really hard time getting the extensions in my head, even after working on this for a long long time.

    I definitely feel like sometimes all this work pays off in just improvising and I'm starting to really get the notes in that area where they used to be a lot harder to find. But it's making my mildly depressed and agitated that it's taking so long.

    I'm working really slowly and trying to map everything out but damn. Certain things on guitar I think come somewhat naturally to me but this is like pulling my teeth out, slowly, one by one.

    I'll take any advice if you have it. Or maybe...this just takes a super super long time to figure out?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Well, any serious study has to deal with all the arps, subs, extensions for all kinds of chords in any key in at least 5 different positions. It's a grind and if you're not used to the G/B thing throwing out your 4 string symmetry, then you will get headaches. Of course, all that work is still just like learning the alphabet, or just typing thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog a million times with no mistakes really quickly with your eyes closed. In other words, good for one aspect of technique, but not great at actual music making (or creative writing with that typewriter...).

    I now regret spending years grokking this stuff without simultaneously working on language/vocab against actual tunes. I think a good teacher should keep you inspired by giving you the right things to practice in the right order (not that there's any agreement out there about what that is exactly!)...

    That's the best advice I would offer.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Well, any serious study has to deal with all the arps, subs, extensions for all kinds of chords in any key in at least 5 different positions. It's a grind and if you're not used to the G/B thing throwing out your 4 string symmetry, then you will get headaches. Of course, all that work is still just like learning the alphabet, or just typing thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog a million times with no mistakes really quickly with your eyes closed. In other words, good for one aspect of technique, but not great at actual music making (or creative writing with that typewriter...).

    I now regret spending years grokking this stuff without simultaneously working on language/vocab against actual tunes. I think a good teacher should keep you inspired by giving you the right things to practice in the right order (not that there's any agreement out there about what that is exactly!)...

    That's the best advice I would offer.
    I hear that and totally get what you're saying. In some ways I'm frustrated with this approach but for the record this teacher who shall remain nameless is kind of famous for being a great teacher. And I don't mind front loading some really tedious shit in order to get better. I sort of don't want to just play, I'd like to really be able to tear things apart and I think really knowing the fretboard would be a good way to do that.

    And I do practice a lot of musical stuff too. It's just that this sort of thing is a real stumbling block for me. I'm hoping in a month or two I'll have this sorted out but it's slow going and frustrating.

    Thanks!

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    Hello all,

    I've been working for about a year with a teacher online. It's really tough (for me) stuff about being able to play any arpeggio or extension on any chord.

    I come from playing bass so have forever had a kind of bottom four mentality on the guitar which has always been a problem. A couple of months ago I started working on a II-V exercise I wrote that goes through every permutation of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 on three different II V progressions.

    I really wanted to figure out the meaty area of the guitar so I limited it to frets 5-10 and always trying to play the highest possible arpeggio in that space.

    I'm attaching the exercise I made. I also want to be able to play these all descending too.

    Anyway, it's just amazingly frustrating. I do wonder if there's something wrong with my brain. I'm trying to memorize this one sheet of paper and it's just killing me. Partly to do with the chord shapes changing because of the third interval between G/B. Partially because I'm having a really hard time getting the extensions in my head, even after working on this for a long long time.

    I definitely feel like sometimes all this work pays off in just improvising and I'm starting to really get the notes in that area where they used to be a lot harder to find. But it's making my mildly depressed and agitated that it's taking so long.

    I'm working really slowly and trying to map everything out but damn. Certain things on guitar I think come somewhat naturally to me but this is like pulling my teeth out, slowly, one by one.

    I'll take any advice if you have it. Or maybe...this just takes a super super long time to figure out?

    Nothing wrong with you at all. I find that exercise to be unnecessarily challenging for someone who has not played 7th chord arpeggios from the ground up. A more typical "skill set by level" pedagogical roadmap looks more like this:

    "Group 1" chords: Maj7, Min7, Dom7, Mi7b5, Dim7

    1. Exercise 1: Form memorization - learn the forms! Seventh chord arpeggios, one octave from the root, from starting strings 6,5,4,3.
    a. At least two fingerings per starting strings 6,5,4, one fingering from the 3rd string. (assumes CAGED. i.e. five fingering patterns per diatonic scale. Other scale fingering types may yield more arpeggio fingerings, so pick your poison.)
    b. Play them them ascending/descending and vice versa, one chord quality at a time. You will have 7 fingerings for most chord qualities, assuming CAGED. Play them through all fretboard areas as dictated by your fingering system (i.e. five areas for CAGED).

    Like so: 1-3-5-7-8-7-5-3-1 and 8-7-5-3-1-3-5-7-8
    Do it for all 12 roots.

    2. Exercise 2: Diatonic arpeggios from all scale degrees - learn to navigate all chords in a key! Play the same one-octave arpeggio fingerings but this time in "diatonic fashion" (leaving out Dim7 for the moment). Meaning, play all the arpeggios for the major scale diatonically.
    a. Staying in one CAGED area, start with the IMaj7 chord on the lowest string the root can be found, ether 6,5, or 4. Play the I chord arpeggio, then the II, then the III, etc until you reach the highest sounding arpeggio in that fretboard area without shifting to the next fingering higher. (i.e. stay in position). Then work your way back down to the lowest sounding arpeggio in that position, then back up to the I chord (if not already there). Apply to all five CAGED fingering areas. Then do it in other keys.



    That's a great foundation, but what have we NOT yet learned?
    1. We have not learned other "chord groups" to ensure that we have covered additional chords from minor keys (like the Dim7) as well as some commonly used dominant chords such as 7sus4, 7b5, 7#5, or Ma6, Mi6 etc.
    2. We have not learned to play arpeggios from chord tones beyond the root
    3. We have not learned to play 2 octave arpeggios.
    4. We have not learned to play 3 octave arpeggios.
    5. We have not learned to play arpeggios with tensions or altered tensions
    6. We have not learned to play superimposed arpeggios (i.e. 3-5-7-9 over a I chord)
    7. We have not learned to play "chord outlines" involving voice led arpeggios against common progressions (like II-V-I, Rhythm changes, Dominant cyles, etc). These are the stepping stones to improv.


    Conclusions:
    1. Some will tell you that all of the above are mandatory, and others will tell you that items 2 and 4 can be done without, or at least deferred. You have to decide.
    2. You won't learn them all at once, there is too much to absorb. A study plan based upon a "skill set by level" is a repeatably proven way to take stock of what you know/don't know, and when to learn it and proceed upward.

    Incidentally, you might want to have a look at Joseph Violas two books, Berklee Press. One covers diatonic arpeggios, and it moves from triads, to sevenths to ninths, etc. all the way up to 13ths. In other words it teaches you "skips and steps", at least for the major scale but should be applied to all diatonic scales. You need those skills. The other book includes "chord group 1" drills one chord at a time and includes approaches, encircling, and all available tensions and altered tensions. You'll need those skills too. It's just that they are saxophone books, you'll need to apply the drills to the guitar. The first two exercises above lay a foundation for approaching that.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    Hello all,

    I've been working for about a year with a teacher online. It's really tough (for me) stuff about being able to play any arpeggio or extension on any chord.

    I come from playing bass so have forever had a kind of bottom four mentality on the guitar which has always been a problem. A couple of months ago I started working on a II-V exercise I wrote that goes through every permutation of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 on three different II V progressions.

    I really wanted to figure out the meaty area of the guitar so I limited it to frets 5-10 and always trying to play the highest possible arpeggio in that space.

    I'm attaching the exercise I made. I also want to be able to play these all descending too.

    Anyway, it's just amazingly frustrating. I do wonder if there's something wrong with my brain. I'm trying to memorize this one sheet of paper and it's just killing me. Partly to do with the chord shapes changing because of the third interval between G/B. Partially because I'm having a really hard time getting the extensions in my head, even after working on this for a long long time.

    I definitely feel like sometimes all this work pays off in just improvising and I'm starting to really get the notes in that area where they used to be a lot harder to find. But it's making my mildly depressed and agitated that it's taking so long.

    I'm working really slowly and trying to map everything out but damn. Certain things on guitar I think come somewhat naturally to me but this is like pulling my teeth out, slowly, one by one.

    I'll take any advice if you have it. Or maybe...this just takes a super super long time to figure out?
    How about, rather than thinking of chord scales think of related but separate chord progs

    So instead of

    Dm11 G13b9 Cmaj9

    Think

    Am7 E7 Em7

    For instance.

    Jordan Klemons approach is also really good for this stuff, getting away from ‘bottom up.’ This is one way in which Chord Scales can be a highly problematic learning tool.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I think it may be too much to assimilate all at once.

    My impression is that, at least for some, it's more effective to learn one sound at a time. So, for example, starting by playing straight mixolydian against 7th chords and then adding the b9. After you have that sound in your ears, add a #11. Proceed like that.

    There is a whole other, related, topic about how you go about finding those notes. Apparently, the most popular approach is learning fingering patterns for various scales and arps in 5 positions. I think there's a strong argument for learning to hear the sounds and, separately, learning to play - automatically - whatever is in your mind.

  8. #7
    Thanks for all the advice. I agree...I think it's too much.

    I think I'll back off from lessons for a while and really work on learning the fingerboard.

    Say my goal though was to work towards being able to play this exercise not just from memory but organically in all keys. Any specific method you'd recommend to really nail both the fingerboard and the weirder arpeggio shapes here?

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    Thanks for all the advice. I agree...I think it's too much.

    I think I'll back off from lessons for a while and really work on learning the fingerboard.

    Say my goal though was to work towards being able to play this exercise not just from memory but organically in all keys. Any specific method you'd recommend to really nail both the fingerboard and the weirder arpeggio shapes here?
    I don't have a definitive answer and, if I did, it wouldn't be right for everybody. My suggestion is to work on the skill of being able to play what you hear. Can you pick a random fret/finger/string and play Happy Birthday without mistakes? That's a basic skill. If you can do that, and you can hear, say, a b9 (and the other sounds you want to use), you won't need to worry about fingerings, at least, not at slow enough tempos.

    As far as fingerings go, I still think it's best one sound at a time. It seems to me that you might be jumping too far ahead.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I don't have a definitive answer and, if I did, it wouldn't be right for everybody. My suggestion is to work on the skill of being able to play what you hear. Can you pick a random fret/finger/string and play Happy Birthday without mistakes? That's a basic skill. If you can do that, and you can hear, say, a b9 (and the other sounds you want to use), you won't need to worry about fingerings, at least, not at slow enough tempos.

    As far as fingerings go, I still think it's best one sound at a time. It seems to me that you might be jumping too far ahead.
    For the record I can actually hear this material really well. I've been working on it at length for months in different forms and the sound is drilled into my ears. It's really a matter of being able to play it that's the problem, particularly on the top four strings.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Further thoughts:

    1) fretboard mapping is grind. I think it’s the single biggest problem in learning jazz guitar....

    2) it may help to ground things in repertoire. We presumably learn music because we are interested in playing music. Standards get you around the cycle etc.

    3) there are a lot of very intellectual mathsy jazz guitar teachers out there. The work has to be done at some point, but just because you haven’t mastered it all doesn’t mean you can’t go out and play music.

    4) learn one thing well and apply it everywhere.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    For boosting morale.. damn. I remember some discussion where they had done some calculations about how many minutes one has to spend to really understand a difficult required paper for school.
    Calculated some more.. the amount of the material to pass the exams made the whole thing look ridiculous. Either cheat, get lucky or learn it superficially. Or don't have a life and study while gobbling up caffeine pills. But the actual problem wasn't the amount of stuff to learn.. I mean, it was all interesting but the problem was time. Same with OP. The problem is not the amount, it's the time.

    If i'd have to learn your paper full of arps, I'd calculate the time I'd need.. something like 4 minutes for 4 bars.. Then get it groovy in 10 minutes.. make some variations in another 10. Leave it for a day or two. That would need a month maybe to go through all this.

    Relax, small chunks at a time. Can't absorb well if just piling up the material. It's not for exam... I hope?

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    For the record I can actually hear this material really well. I've been working on it at length for months in different forms and the sound is drilled into my ears. It's really a matter of being able to play it that's the problem, particularly on the top four strings.
    Apologies in advance if I'm getting too far afield from the OP. There is a point here that often puzzles me. People want to be able to play arps, but, on the bandstand, do people really want to play arps? I guess the answer is, sometimes. But often, the idea is to play some kind of melodic statement that accesses particular harmony.

    My guess is that many players access this by playing fragments of arps. And, those fragments can be accessed in different ways. Getting the full 2 octave arp pattern under your fingers, in 5 places on the neck and automatic starting on any note within the arp and breaking the arp up in any way .... a lot of work, but it will get you to the goal.

    Other players distill the sound down to something simpler. For example, you can get G alt by playing 7th mode Ab melodic minor. But, you can also get a lot of the same sound by playing Abmin(add9).

    Still another way is simply to know the notes you want to use and where they are on the neck.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Incidentally, you might want to have a look at Joseph Violas two books, Berklee Press. One covers diatonic arpeggios, and it moves from triads, to sevenths to ninths, etc. all the way up to 13ths. In other words it teaches you "skips and steps", at least for the major scale but should be applied to all diatonic scales. You need those skills. The other book includes "chord group 1" drills one chord at a time and includes approaches, encircling, and all available tensions and altered tensions. You'll need those skills too. It's just that they are saxophone books, you'll need to apply the drills to the guitar. The first two exercises above lay a foundation for approaching that.
    Good pointer, thanks!

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    I think if you apply some jazz language or bebop heads through a bunch of keys on a regular basis then these things will reveal themselves to you in a more organic way. Take a simple blues head like Tenor Madness - without writing anything out, learn to play it in all keys and all positions.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Lots of good advice here but its mixed. There is technique and learning the fretboard which is what this thread is about - and specifically developing arpeggio facility. Arpeggio facility is important for a developing jazz musician. It has merit on its own, no apologies.

    And then the topics of playing scales, performance ear training, learning tunes, jazz language patterns, and bop heads were introduced. That's typically what we do here, give lots of "do this instead" advice, as opposed to "do this also advice", while leaving the reader with the task of sorting it all out. We give scatter shot advice - and a lot of it is very good - but it doesn't paint the full picture of topics and materials that should be studied/practiced, is typically not level appropriate, and doesn't paint a picture of what the preceding or succeeding levels entail.

    And as already stated, the reader is left with the task of sorting it all out. It's like learning how to be a plumber out in the field, with zero formal study, and f@cking up 1000 houses before we get it right, lol.

    But it's all good, it's free after all.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    Hello all,

    I've been working for about a year with a teacher online. It's really tough (for me) stuff about being able to play any arpeggio or extension on any chord.

    I come from playing bass so have forever had a kind of bottom four mentality on the guitar which has always been a problem. A couple of months ago I started working on a II-V exercise I wrote that goes through every permutation of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 on three different II V progressions.

    I really wanted to figure out the meaty area of the guitar so I limited it to frets 5-10 and always trying to play the highest possible arpeggio in that space.

    I'm attaching the exercise I made. I also want to be able to play these all descending too.

    Anyway, it's just amazingly frustrating. I do wonder if there's something wrong with my brain. I'm trying to memorize this one sheet of paper and it's just killing me. Partly to do with the chord shapes changing because of the third interval between G/B. Partially because I'm having a really hard time getting the extensions in my head, even after working on this for a long long time.

    I definitely feel like sometimes all this work pays off in just improvising and I'm starting to really get the notes in that area where they used to be a lot harder to find. But it's making my mildly depressed and agitated that it's taking so long.

    I'm working really slowly and trying to map everything out but damn. Certain things on guitar I think come somewhat naturally to me but this is like pulling my teeth out, slowly, one by one.

    I'll take any advice if you have it. Or maybe...this just takes a super super long time to figure out?
    Have you showed this worksheet to your teacher ? It's got some mistakes I think, although it's Monday morning... . Maybe I'm not understanding what you're doing.

    Is it a 3625 progression? You're calling it 25's. Anyway, I would rather see a D-flat key signature if it's a 25 in Db. The accidentals in the first two measures on each line should either reflect being a 36 in D flat or 25 in E flat. Either way, some of them are messed up if I'm looking at this the right way.

    I uderstand your teacher is well thought of as a teacher, but I certainly hope he/she is an excellent JAZZ teacher/player and that you've heard them facilitating a similar type thing in their own playing over examples etc. A question like: "Can you show me an example of this? " Would be a great start. ( I apologize for lack of Roman numerals above. I'm not doing all that on my phone this morning. )
    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    I hear that and totally get what you're saying. In some ways I'm frustrated with this approach but for the record this teacher who shall remain nameless is kind of famous for being a great teacher. And I don't mind front loading some really tedious shit in order to get better. I sort of don't want to just play, I'd like to really be able to tear things apart and I think really knowing the fretboard would be a good way to do that.

    And I do practice a lot of musical stuff too. It's just that this sort of thing is a real stumbling block for me. I'm hoping in a month or two I'll have this sorted out but it's slow going and frustrating.

    Thanks!
    Anyway, beyond all of that, I definitely would NOT limit myself to thinking of all of the extensions ONLY in the context of the chord of the moment. It's really helpful to think of Abmaj7 in terms of its would-be extensions as an Fm7 chord, but long term, it's EQUALLY valuable to be able to see BOTH of those chord names at the same time as basically being the same thing. You get two for one... Abmaj7 equals Fm9 in the same way that Fm7 equals Ab6.

    I would probably have those relationships in parentheses above. It's not a copout or workaround, though it probably helps with some brain fatigue. In the end, you need to be able to see everything both ways.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Don't take it as an advice but just something to think about.

    It helped me to avoid such frustrations when started treating some of the stuff that needed practice as "essentials" and "bonus".
    It's something that seems obvious but not actually working before spending some time to figure out, which is which.

    So, if it falls to the category of "essential", keep it on daily practice but still be realistic about them.
    If it's "bonus" then it actually can be fun for the lifetime. No need to overthink or feel needlessly hard pressure.

    Not saying your arps are this or that - people go different ways.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Have you showed this worksheet to your teacher ? It's got some mistakes I think, although it's Monday morning... . Maybe I'm not understanding what you're doing.

    Is it a 3625 progression? You're calling it 25's. Anyway, I would rather see a D-flat key signature if it's a 25 in Db. The accidentals in the first two measures on each line should either reflect being a 36 in D flat or 25 in E flat. Either way, some of them are messed up if I'm looking at this the right way.

    I uderstand your teacher is well thought of as a teacher, but I certainly hope he/she is an excellent JAZZ teacher/player and that you've heard them facilitating a similar type thing in their own playing over examples etc. A question like: "Can you show me an example of this? " Would be a great start. ( I apologize for lack of Roman numerals above. I'm not doing all that on my phone this morning. )
    Anyway, beyond all of that, I definitely would NOT limit myself to thinking of all of the extensions ONLY in the context of the chord of the moment. It's really helpful to think of Abmaj7 in terms of its would-be extensions as an Fm7 chord, but long term, it's EQUALLY valuable to be able to see BOTH of those chord names at the same time as basically being the same thing. You get two for one... Abmaj7 equals Fm9 in the same way that Fm7 equals Ab6.

    I would probably have those relationships in parentheses above. It's not a copout or workaround, though it probably helps with some brain fatigue. In the end, you need to be able to see everything both ways.
    I made the exercise myself. It's (I think) all the chord progressions in Autumn Leaves in F- but condensed to two beats per chord. It's out of order, the first part is the final two beat turnaround, the second part is the minor ii-v-i and the third part is the initial four chords.

    Do you still see errors? I think in that context it's correct (with #11 on all the major/dom chords)

  20. #19
    I appreciate all the responses. It was all really helpful. I've been cataloguing what I can and can't do. I do have a lot of fundamental work to do on basic stuff, triads, caged, chord forms. I've been sort of winging it for a while but it's been frustrating. I just got the Joe Viola chord study book mentioned above and that seems to be perfect.

    I'm going to take a break from the lessons I mentioned and dig into this stuff and I'm hopeful that I will be in better shape in a few months.


    Thanks for your time!

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    I made the exercise myself. It's (I think) all the chord progressions in Autumn Leaves in F- but condensed to two beats per chord. It's out of order, the first part is the final two beat turnaround, the second part is the minor ii-v-i and the third part is the initial four chords.

    Do you still see errors? I think in that context it's correct (with #11 on all the major/dom chords)
    Did your teacher specifically suggest #11 on dominants and major? Seems atypical for this type of thing.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Did your teacher specifically suggest #11 on dominants and major? Seems atypical for this type of thing.
    yup. in this context anyway.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    yup. in this context anyway.
    Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with your brain as you say. This exercise is just unwieldy on a few different levels. You're making the progression twice as fast , you're making all the arpeggios ascending , and once you start altering extensions in peculiar, it's hard to have context. I'm sure abacking track helps.

    But honestly, I'd wonder if it wouldn't just be more helpful to have the exercise fit the musical example a little better. Four eighth notes ascending the arp, 4 descending the scale. Then, flip it: cend the scale and descend the arpeggio. You can do that for all of the extension arps as well.

    You need this kind of vocabulary desperately for the quick turnaround which you have at the beginning of this exercise? But it also solves the problem of having to condense the changes for the opening bars of the tune. You need a whole 4 beats of something to play on the real tune. You can do these kind of things on a single 4-beat chord. Works fine.

    Bbm7 - Eb7 = Bb-Db-F-Ab-G-F-Eb-Db|| Eb-G-Bb-Db-C-Bb-Ab-G

    Anyway, is this assignment just one small part of a lot of other good things you're doing? I'm not really a jazz teacher, but I'm perplexed by the #11's. Maybe if they weren't all ascending...

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    If it helps, this is how I go about teaching chord tone fretboard mapping.



    I don't much discuss extended chords here, but the basis is always triads --> 7th chords --> 9th chords --> etc. Is good to know.

    HOWEVER I do briefly discuss something that is often more useful than extended chords is taking triads or seventh chords out of them (as I discussed above) - so for instance on Cmaj7#11 you play for instance, Bm7 or D as well as the full extended chord, and the options on the root.