The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    In the last few years I've had the opportunity to go to NYC jazz clubs a number of times.

    Even in the small clubs, the musicians are top notch.

    I noticed that, in NYC jazz, the groups often take the music somewhere that even the musicians don't expect.

    For example, in the middle of a swing tune, the drummer starts playing rhumba. You can see the musicians be startled, smile and then hear them take it somewhere as a rhumba. (This happened in Hendrik Muerken's show at Small's).

    But, around here, I often hear the jazz groups play their tunes in a very straight, invariant way. Intro, head, solos, head, outro. Without much variation.

    When I remind myself to do this (and my bandmates) we play differently. Better, I think.

    Seems like it ought to be a no-brainer, but I'm wondering if it's maybe more of a thing in NYC.

    Thoughts?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    My contemporaries here do things like that a lot. Starts one place and ends in another. But my current band are great post college age. They’re still students so they have a reverence for the music. That’s great but you ALSO have to own it yourself before you can REALLY create it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    But, around here, I often hear the jazz groups play their tunes in a very straight, invariant way. Intro, head, solos, head, outro. Without much variation.
    Back when I was playing with my quintet, this became a source of irritation and frustration for me. It seemed like so much of the music was being played by rote with not much listening, not much variation, damned little creativity. And oddly enough even that deteriorated over time, I think as people were getting bored and frustrated they didn't even play by rote very well.

    I have come to rather dislike the head, solo, solo, solo, drum solo, head format that so many bands use to address this music (at least glorified amateur bands like the one I was in). I was just listening to the Grateful Dead playing "Dark Star" (9/21/72) and enjoyed the approach of extended group improvisation, head, extended group improvisation following the music wherever it went. Not everybody's cup of tea, of course, as the consistently inconsistent structure of what was being played drives some people nuts. I happen to like the sense of the music just going somewhere else of its own accord, playing through the musicians.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Hmmm...

    It's true that maybe head-solos-head can get a bit stale and formulaic but what do we put in its place? 'Letting the music just go somewhere else of its own accord, playing through the musicians' sounds wonderful in theory but I'm wondering if it really works in practice.

    What does it actually mean? Just fooling around? All trying to fit together by feel? What are the audience supposed to make of it? A drummer suddenly breaking into a rumba is one thing - guaranteed to bring a smile - but the whole band suddenly all doing their own thing? Turning every tune into free jazz?

    I think I'd need some convincing. Not that I'd want things to sound rigid and conformist, that's not the point.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Hmmm...

    It's true that maybe head-solos-head can get a bit stale and formulaic but what do we put in its place? 'Letting the music just go somewhere else of its own accord, playing through the musicians' sounds wonderful in theory but I'm wondering if it really works in practice.

    What does it actually mean? Just fooling around? All trying to fit together by feel? What are the audience supposed to make of it? A drummer suddenly breaking into a rumba is one thing - guaranteed to bring a smile - but the whole band suddenly all doing their own thing? Turning every tune into free jazz?

    I think I'd need some convincing. Not that I'd want things to sound rigid and conformist, that's not the point.
    I haven't done it yet, but I was thinking about getting the Small's subscription, where you can listen/watch every show. To try to pick up some more ideas about how this works.

    Some of it is difficult. For example, if there are two chord instruments and one decides to reharmonize on the fly, it's important that the other player can follow it - instantly, by ear. Soloists too, although I think that's a little easier.

    Another thing I hear great players do is let the time of the tune be implied -- while what they actually play is an overlay. That can get so wild that it's hard even as a listener to keep track of the underlying time. But, the great players know where it is at all times and can come back together.

    In a trio situation, a pianist can go to stream of consciousness playing, provided that the bassist can follow the harmony.

    I tried this in a guitar trio format over the weekend. Our bag of tricks isn't extensive, but it included:

    Not everybody plays all the time. So, we did a head, for example, bass/guitar playing 4 bars and letting the drums play 4 bars. Not solos on fours, but the head.

    When we got to the bridge, one of us said "double time" and we did that for 8 bars, coming right back to the original tempo for the last 8.

    A lot of very sparse playing where everybody was playing a fraction of the usual number of notes.

    On one tune with a lot of changes I asked to solo on a vamp. Then, when I got tired of that, called the group to the beginning of the usual changes and did that for a chorus. I got the idea from Robert Glasper, who did something like that on Stella a couple of weeks ago.

    I guess not everybody likes vamps. Some players I know just about refuse to play them. Frank Zappa only soloed over them -- he said he didn't like playing changes. Eliane Elias, in concert, wasn't shy about extended 3625 vamps. But, it's easier to get creative when you don't have a zillion changes coming out you quickly. Not that great players can't do that. But, maybe, even if you're not a great player, there's something you can do along those lines.

    Overlaying one time signature on another works, as does taking a tune into a different time signature entirely.

    Anyway, those are examples that came to mind. I think a lot of it is a mindset. Some players will adjust on the fly more easily than others. I think there's a mindset involved -- are you playing the paper on the stand, the tune in your head, or the musicians in the room? In what proportion?

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I think the longer certain musicians play together, or guys that get to gig/play a lot just start to stretch out naturally in a more organic fashion than planning it.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I don’t know about NYC but I would say one thing they have there is a tradition of playing standards creatively. I wish there were more of that here.... but I have done lots of this type of thing in bands. This is what jazz is to me. People having a musical conversation in the moment.

    You need people who listen. Some people - often very skilled players - are so switched off and inflexible they can’t hear anything as an idea unless it’s in the arrangement or they thought of it.

    Goes both ways though, of course.... you have to be open to others.

    Reharming tunes is always a problem in a band with two chordal instruments. General rule of thumb - you hear the piano do something cool and don’t know what it is, shut the **** up. And remember to ask the pianist about it after. This is guitarist behaviour pianists seem to enjoy.

    So yeah, shaping a gig to be more than the head solos head (sax guitar bass drums in that order every tune) requires pro activity and imagination. It’s good to develop a repertoire of things you can do. You need to be quite on the ball if you are leading.

    Here’s some ideas I’ve used
    - stop chorus
    - trading - not just front line and drums but one or two instruments
    - riff fours - often more effective than soloing fours
    - riffs on solos
    - ensemble blowing - two or more frontline
    - drum solo middle 8 on the out
    - the inevitable riff drum solo
    - vamps between solos, interlude sections
    - reverse solo order - often very effective. Bass first, builds.
    - key change in the last chorus. Needs people who know tunes.
    - b in different time signature to a section
    - change last chord. bVI or bII effective on most tunes
    - change feel between head and solos. Most good jazz drummers do this to some extent.

    Feel changes in tunes - these can be cool. I don’t use them so much, but I aim to have a good variety of feels in a set. Variety I think is always best. As a rhythm guitar player in a trio or duo it’s fun to have control over that, but in a band it can be a good idea to dig through Drum Genius and locate some interesting feels on standards that you can play to drummers. Even within swing feel you have:

    - 50s 2 feel
    - trad press rolls
    - old school swing feel, hi hat
    - 50s Basie feel
    - bop
    - swing with conga snare (blue note feel)
    - second line
    - second line with swing ride (poinciana)
    - boogaloo
    - contemporary, broken up

    Etc etc. This won’t work for drummers who think jazz drumming = spangalang and comping on the snare... bit someone who is open and up for ideas.

    This stuff need not be the preserve of pro players. It’s stuff you can do at any level.

    And that’s before we get into odd time. It’s good to collect feels. For instance, Peter Bernstein gets a lot of mileage out of a medium Take Five 5/4. Obv on Jive Coffee but on standards too.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-29-2019 at 05:34 AM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    There’s other things that you can do specifically for dancers. There’s a guy in NYC Gordon Webster who is the most micromanaging band leader I’ve ever worked with haha, but keeps it fresh for the dancers and he knows what they want. My god you need to be on the ball and the gigs are usually 3 or 4 hours long! Missed a modulation in A Train once and never got the call again.

    Probably Hep knows him.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-29-2019 at 05:32 AM.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    rp -

    Sure, but what you're describing isn't really some sort of crazy free-for-all, it's a restructuring of the tune, a way to make it more interesting. That's quite different. All for it, definitely.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I think the longer certain musicians play together, or guys that get to gig/play a lot just start to stretch out naturally in a more organic fashion than planning it.
    First thing that popped into my head, Cosmic. (Thanks!)


  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    In the last few years I've had the opportunity to go to NYC jazz clubs a number of times.

    Even in the small clubs, the musicians are top notch.
    Yup, there are scary-good players all over the place (I'm not one of them, obviously, but I hang with some)

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    I noticed that, in NYC jazz, the groups often take the music somewhere that even the musicians don't expect.

    For example, in the middle of a swing tune, the drummer starts playing rhumba. You can see the musicians be startled, smile and then hear them take it somewhere as a rhumba. (This happened in Hendrik Muerken's show at Small's).

    But, around here, I often hear the jazz groups play their tunes in a very straight, invariant way. Intro, head, solos, head, outro. Without much variation.

    When I remind myself to do this (and my bandmates) we play differently. Better, I think.

    Seems like it ought to be a no-brainer, but I'm wondering if it's maybe more of a thing in NYC.

    Thoughts?
    This sort of thing is part of the jam session culture, from what I've observed. Pushing and pulling at forms and rhythms, doing swing tunes as Latin and vice versa, changing up whether to trade 8's or 4's (or not trade at all), instruments dropping out for the head (e.g., just bass and vocals), pedal points on a the 5th, coming up with a shout chorus or horn pads on the fly, etc, these things are pretty common. How much of this goes on depends on how good and how communicative the players are. When relative newbies come up, things tend to stay straighter. Jammers are also giggers, so it comes out in performances. I never thought of this as a specifically NY thing, but I don't get around much (anymore).

    John

  13. #12
    More ideas on variation:

    Solo intros.

    everybody else drops out for somebody's solo, often piano, but not necessarily.

    bass and horn only for horn solo

    drums and soloist.

    stop time for solos.

    changing from 4 to 3 or vice versa

    going to 7/4

    two players sharing a solo -- (I'm partial to this one -- forces them to listen and interact)

    leaving plenty of space for drum groove to be heard

    key change

    soloing on a vamp instead of the usual changes

    going to a different tune and back again.

    Here are some things that can screw it up:

    Drum solo where the drummer goes into outer space and continues until he's the only one who allegedly knows where the top is and then the solo is over. How do you interact with that?

    Bass solos which don't adequately imply the time.

    Reharming beyond the ability of the other players to follow it.

    Being relentlessly busy in the rhythm section.

    Not being willing to tolerate silence or ambiguity for long enough to let somebody else take control.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Hmmm...

    It's true that maybe head-solos-head can get a bit stale and formulaic but what do we put in its place? 'Letting the music just go somewhere else of its own accord, playing through the musicians' sounds wonderful in theory but I'm wondering if it really works in practice.

    What does it actually mean? Just fooling around? All trying to fit together by feel? What are the audience supposed to make of it? A drummer suddenly breaking into a rumba is one thing - guaranteed to bring a smile - but the whole band suddenly all doing their own thing? Turning every tune into free jazz?

    I think I'd need some convincing. Not that I'd want things to sound rigid and conformist, that's not the point.
    Great questions. Don't know if I have non-BS answers. I think that if every tune is done in any particular way it becomes boring; all "let the music play the band" would get old fast unless contrasted with something else, yes? Tension and release after all. If you listen to live Dead shows, the first set tends to be concise songs, maybe one or two done a little more "out." The second set is usually where they climb into the Vista Cruiser and see what's out there (Dark Star, Scarlet -> Fire, Weather Report Suite, Terrapin, drums/space, etc.). And then pull it back with a Chuck Berry tune or a cowboy song or a ballad- something earthy and grounding. It's the contrast that makes it interesting. So, no, turning everything into free jazz would be a "no." 35 minutes of "Dark Star" is wonderful, but you have to get back to Earth somehow so you can find the car and go home. Or 20 minutes of Coltrane's band on "My Favorite Things" followed by "Cousin Mary" or something. The Dead's "Infrared Roses" CD is all space, no earth, as a contrast to how their shows actually worked. Obviously there is something in the Dead's approach to music that still resonates with me more than most any other band.

    But good bands, even playing standards with the head-solos-head approach, manage to get somewhere interesting. The comping is not rote- the soloist solos, the band is listening and answering not only the soloist but each other. The Jim Hall Live gigs with Don Thompson and Terry Clarke, for example, do this in spades. Those songs are standards but get very abstracted, yet all three of them know exactly where they are and bring it all back in just the right place. Amazing stuff. Miles's great quintets (especially the second great quintet) or Trane/McCoy/Elvin do the same at their peak. But it takes huge ears, diligent attention, humility, willingness t surrender and a dose of talent beyond what I have to pull that off, I guess. Too many bands sound kind of bored and limp behind the soloists. If the drummer's got a great idea for interacting with the solo, or the bassist, I want to hear the band and soloist latch onto that and explore it, rather than the "just make the soloist sound good" style where the band is just background.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Every member of the band has to have the skill set to group improvise with the form, harmony, or rhythm/meter, etc. It's not easy putting a group like that together. It's harder now than ever for lack of opportunities.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Why are people always taking about the Dead on this forum lol?

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    I noticed that, in NYC jazz, the groups often take the music somewhere that even the musicians don't expect.

    Jazz should be "the sound of surprise", not some parlour recital of some perfectly played sheet music.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    I noticed that, in NYC jazz, the groups often take the music somewhere that even the musicians don't expect.

    Jazz should be "the sound of surprise", not a parlour recital of some perfectly played sheet music.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    I much prefer the loose "let's see where this goes" jazz to the strict adherence of head solos out.

    I'm not even into jazz that's very tightly arranged.