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  1. #1

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    Let's take a progression from Joy Spring as an example (F major):

    Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin7 C7| Fmaj7

    Obviously this is just iii vi ii V I with standard substitutions* (see analysis below if you are not sure).
    One simplification is to drop the two's and just think dominants:
    | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F

    But then Ab7 going to C7 is a bit awkward since Ab7 is really looking for a minor target (G min specifically). Also we are completely losing this nice chromatic voice leading in the bass (A Ab G).
    What is your approach in these situations?


    *Analysis:
    | Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | is really | Amin7 | Dmin7 | (iii vi) with standard substitutions:

    Amin7 -> A7 (secondary dominant) -> Eb7 (tritone) -> Bbmin7 Eb7 (adding ii).

    Dmin7 -> D7 (secondary dominant) -> Amin7 D7 (adding ii) -> Amin7 Ab7 (tritone to only dominant)
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-20-2019 at 01:29 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Moving pretty quick there. I might play D7 to C7 to F. Or run an idea downward in half steps. Or play off the melody's idea of repeating a note over those first three chords.

    I hear the Ab7 in passing, so I don't need to address it most of the time. I'll play through that change...Am or D7 to C7 to F.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Let's take a progression from Joy Spring as an example (F major):

    Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin7 C7| Fmaj7

    Obviously this is just iii vi ii V I with standard substitutions* (see analysis below if you are not sure).
    One simplification is to drop the two's and just think dominants:
    | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F

    But then Ab7 going to C7 is a bit awkward since Ab7 is really looking for a minor target (G min specifically). Also we are completely losing this nice chromatic voice leading in the bass (A Ab G).
    What is your approach in these situations?
    Tritone sub Gb7 for C7 to preserve the chromatic line. But I'm not sure whether the question is about comping or single line soloing.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    Tritone sub Gb7 for C7 to preserve the chromatic line. But I'm not sure whether the question is about comping or single line soloing.
    It's for soloing. I understand that getting the bassline movement in the solo is not particularly meaningful. Chromatic descending chords (not just the bassline) is an interesting part of the harmony though, so bringing that out in the solo in some choruses could be nice.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    It's for soloing. I understand that getting the bassline movement in the solo is not particularly meaningful. Chromatic descending chords (not just the bassline) is an interesting part of the harmony though, so bringing that out in the solo in some choruses could be nice.
    Then I suppose Barry might suggest playing the dominant into its tritone, for instance coming down the dominant, surrounding a chord tone of the tritone, then moving on the tritone, using the dominant rules throughout.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Moving pretty quick there. I might play D7 to C7 to F. Or run an idea downward in half steps. Or play off the melody's idea of repeating a note over those first three chords.

    I hear the Ab7 in passing, so I don't need to address it most of the time. I'll play through that change...Am or D7 to C7 to F.
    +1. When thinking of dominants, instead of

    | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F

    I would try

    | A7 | D7 | C7 | F

    one chorus and

    | Eb7 | Ab7 | Gb7 | F

    the next chorus.



    Build bridges, not walls.

  8. #7

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    I am slightly confused by how you present this.
    I look at this song progression in two bar chunks
    as a starting reference.
    1. | Fma7 | Gm7 C7 | tonic/dominant opening

    2. | Fma7 | Bbm7 Eb7 |
    tonic resolution and approach to the turnaround

    3. | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | turnaround

    4. | Fma7 | Abm7 Db7 || tonic resolution and the modulation to the new key



  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    I am slightly confused by how you present this.
    I look at this song progression in two bar chunks
    as a starting reference.
    1. | Fma7 | Gm7 C7 | tonic/dominant opening

    2. | Fma7 | Bbm7 Eb7 |
    tonic resolution and approach to the turnaround

    3. | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | turnaround

    4. | Fma7 | Abm7 Db7 || tonic resolution and the modulation to the new key

    Are you asking how we might approach improvising on this song segment?

    I think of that song segment as a version of a more general progression that's seen in my tunes (iii vi ii V) in many forms. In this tune it manifest it self with (also common) substitutions as | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 |. Would you not agree?

  10. #9

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    I agree that there is nothing uncommon about | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | or the many possible
    variations of tri-tone substitutes

    I see
    Am7 Ab7 | Gm7 C7 | as the variant on Am7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 ||

    I see
    Bbm7 Eb7 | as part of a larger structure Fma7 | Bbm7 Eb7 |
    an expansion of Fma7 | Eb7 | > D7

    It is only in the way that you have this organized that I disagree with.

    There are many ways to link progression segments together and this versatility opens up a level of
    melodic freedom to break out of the confines of 2 and 4 bar phrases.
    But as a starting reference, both the melody and the progression suggest to me a
    2 bar organization as I depicted above.

  11. #10
    Sure 2 and 4 bar organization is important to determine harmonic stress patterns (weak bars vs strong bars). In this instance I was giving Joy Spring as an example of this progression with particular substitutions in a harmonic placement agnostic way. This is not because harmonic placement isn't important, but because I believe this is not the only possible harmonic placement of this progression. For example it can also occur as the last three bars going back to I, no?

  12. #11

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    3 bar turnaround

    Bbm7 Eb7 > A7 > Am7 and Am7 Ab7 > D7 > Dm7 ...... Gm7 C7 | F

    Am7 | Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 or the simplification | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | Fma7 ||

    2 bar turnaround

    Fma7 | Eb7 | Am7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 || or Fma7 | Eb7 | D7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 ||

    or Fma7 | Eb7 | D7 | Db7 C7 | Fma7 ||

    Whatever analysis helps you play what you want is all good.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    3 bar turnaround

    Bbm7 Eb7 > A7 > Am7 and Am7 Ab7 > D7 > Dm7 ...... Gm7 C7 | F

    Am7 | Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 or the simplification | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | Fma7 ||

    2 bar turnaround

    Fma7 | Eb7 | Am7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 || or Fma7 | Eb7 | D7 | Gm7 C7 | Fma7 ||

    or Fma7 | Eb7 | D7 | Db7 C7 | Fma7 ||

    Whatever analysis helps you play what you want is all good.
    I don't really know what I would play. But, in looking over those changes, I see:

    F tonal center (or F lydian maybe, by leaving the Bnatural) moving to Ab tonal center with a clever transition into a 3625 variant turnaround to F.

    That's the first level.

    Next level is chord tones. So, the Bb note will loom large in bar 2. In bar 4, the F moves to Eb. The A moves to Ab, the C moves to Db. The E can move either way. That puts me in Ab tonal center. I can make up a line in Ab or I can outline the chord tones of the ii V, or something.

    But, the ii V never quite makes it to Ab. So, I'm going to think about outlining those changes with chord tones along with notes from Ab and then, when it's time, from F.

    For better or worse, that's about how far I'd go in thinking about these changes.

    As an academic exercise I know that other scales and modes can be used and I can name some, but I never think about that level of things when I play. I believe that there are awesome players who do think that way. Clearly, it works for them, so I am not recommending against it. I'm just describing what I do FWIW.

  14. #13

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    Lots of good clear info from Bako, as always.

    This doesn't have to be hard, folks. It's a turnaround. Point A to point B.

    Heres an option.



    I love y'all, but sometimes it's like you WANT it to be difficult.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  15. #14

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    I too think bako's perspective is right on.

    As far as what to play, I think mr. beaumont's example is excellent, including his young accompaniment - conceptually clean, sounds great.

    Everyone has their own things, I like to include the passing chords in my solos; in fact I often kind of play "inside out" meaning I push and develop the tritones and passing chords when soloing more than the primary chords of the progression ( a kind of reversal of foreground/background thing).

    For example, when I hear that change ("Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin") in this harmonic context:

    - I might change that Ab7 to Abdimb6 and express it with G Lydian Dominant or B diminished (whole half)
    - I might change that Ab7 to Ab79b5 and express it with
    Ab Lydian Dominant or C diminished (whole half)

    ... depending on the mood of the tune and what other people might be playing.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  16. #15

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    The following approach unlocks a lot for me, both in terms of sounds and fretboard navigation:

    • Play the ii chords as minor 7th arp from the 5th or from the root.
    • Play the V chords as melodic minor or dorian from the 5th or as super locrian (mel minor a half-step up from the root of the V chord)
    • Thus you need only think of one root note to realize a ii-V as minor arpeggio or Dorian mode: play minor 7th from 5th resolving to minor 6 from fifth. For example, to play Bb-7 Eb7 play F Ab C Eb D C Ab F. The sound of resolving b7 to natural 6 (in boldface) is what's important. Mix up the notes, play arp or scale or both, just make that resolution happen.
    • Play I chords as iii or as vi.
    • Similarly you can play minor chords as relative major; e.g. A- can be realized as Cma.


    If you can hear and play all of these simple subs without hesitation, you find a lot of possibilities. For example, you could play the Joy Spring example like so (first line is the original progression, second is the subs.)

    Fma | G-7 C7 | Fma | Bb-7 Eb7 | A-7 Ab7 | G-7 C7 | Fma
    A-7 | G-7 G-6 | Fma| F-7 E-ma7 | E-7 Eb-6 | D-7 Db-ma7 | D-7

    Notice the simple stepwise root motion in the second line - there's not a lot to think about in order to create melodic lines that weave through the changes seamlessly.

    Here's a variation: treating the second Fma as iii and starting the Bb-7 progression from its root gives you easy entry into treating the Ab7 as an altered dom by using super locrian:

    Fma | G-7 C7 | Fma | Bb-7 Eb7 | A-7 Ab7 | G-7 C7 | Fma
    Fma | G-7 G-6 | A-7| Bb-7 Bb-6 | A-7 A-ma7 | D-7 Db-ma7 | Cma6

    In the last bar, Cma6 = A-7 = sub for Fma9.

    Its pretty easy to jump a tritone away or a half-step up, so you can do all sorts of variations on these examples without too much effort. For example, if just hanging on the A- while the band changes to Ab7 does not really give you the altered dom sound you want, it's easy to jump to Eb-6 there, especially if you played the A- as E-.

    This is stuff that a lot of people on this board know, likely yourself included, so if I'm missing the point, could you elaborate a bit on whether the problem you want to solve is mechanical or theoretical?

    Cheers,

    SJ
    Last edited by starjasmine; 09-21-2019 at 04:10 AM.

  17. #16

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    What Beaumont said.

    Only works if Kid Uke plays along too

    (Great tone, by the way)

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Let's take a progression from Joy Spring as an example (F major):

    Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin7 C7| Fmaj7

    Obviously this is just iii vi ii V I with standard substitutions* (see analysis below if you are not sure).
    One simplification is to drop the two's and just think dominants:
    | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F

    But then Ab7 going to C7 is a bit awkward since Ab7 is really looking for a minor target (G min specifically). Also we are completely losing this nice chromatic voice leading in the bass (A Ab G).
    What is your approach in these situations?


    *Analysis:
    | Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | is really | Amin7 | Dmin7 | (iii vi) with standard substitutions:

    Amin7 -> A7 (secondary dominant) -> Eb7 (tritone) -> Bbmin7 Eb7 (adding ii).

    Dmin7 -> D7 (secondary dominant) -> Amin7 D7 (adding ii) -> Amin7 Ab7 (tritone to only dominant)
    you misunderstand the concept of tritone substitution.

    tritone substitution means replacing a dominant chord with it's tritone sub of the *same* quality.

    your Ab7 is simply another name for D7alt.

    there is always a pair: non-altered=altered a tritone away. this is not what tritone substitution is about, because you play the same stuff over both chords.

    a real tritone sub is the fourth bar of westcoast blues. F7 gets replaced by F#m7 B7. this only works if the B7 is not altered.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    you misunderstand the concept of tritone substitution.

    tritone substitution means replacing a dominant chord with it's tritone sub of the *same* quality.

    your Ab7 is simply another name for D7alt.

    there is always a pair: non-altered=altered a tritone away. this is not what tritone substitution is about, because you play the same stuff over both chords.

    a real tritone sub is the fourth bar of westcoast blues. F7 gets replaced by F#m7 B7. this only works if the B7 is not altered.
    I beg to differ. Tritone substitutions is one way of getting altered notes. They are not different things. There other ways to think altered.
    But Ab7 is the tritone of D7. That's I think how most people would understand it.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-21-2019 at 09:08 AM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    I beg to differ. I think you're confusing a few things here. Tritone substitutions is one way of getting altered notes. They are not different things. There other ways to think altered.
    But Ab7 is the tritone of D7. That's I think how most people would understand it.
    D7 in F (VI7) is already altered per definition. replacing a sound with exactly the same sound is not a substitution.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    D7 in F (VI7) is already altered per definition. replacing a sound with exactly the same sound is not a substitution.
    OK I see where you're going this now. You're right that it's not tritone "substitution". I should've just said tritone.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Lots of good clear info from Bako, as always.

    This doesn't have to be hard, folks. It's a turnaround. Point A to point B.

    Heres an option.

    I love y'all, but sometimes it's like you WANT it to be difficult.
    Awesome. Eb7 idea down a half step to D7 then C7 to F (at least how I heard your line) works nicely. Brings out the harmonic movement and resolution to F clearly too. Thanks.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    OK I see where you're going this now. You're right that it's not tritone "substitution". I should've just said tritone.
    turnarounds need to be understood in terms of function and movement and not by a paint-by-numbers approach for individual chords.

    on the bandstand in that harmonic spot (VI) you might encounter Dm7, D7alt, Ab13, Abm7, Fmaj, F7, even Abmaj, B7, A7 or Abdim.

    and anything in that list (and much more) can and will be played against anything else.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    turnarounds need to be understood in terms of function and movement and not by a paint-by-numbers approach for individual chords.

    on the bandstand in that harmonic spot (VI) you might encounter Dm7, D7alt, Ab13, Abm7, Fmaj, F7, even Abmaj, B7, A7 or Abdim.

    and anything in that list (and much more) can and will be played against anything else.
    Great post.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  25. #24

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    A few thoughts for you

    Joy Spring is Tonal with lots of keys.

    Bar4 Bbm7 - Eb7 backdoor in FMaj use your ears ( forget about every sub imaginable )

    Amin is FMaj you will get the rest D7#9 is FMaj repeat & rinse up 1/2 step etc Blah

    playing tunes that changes key frequently for short periods, by making the key clear can be interesting enough. You dont have necessarily to alter chords. ......of course you can the idea is to be musical.


    Being a bit contrary here,

    Bar4 could be played as say a change from Fmaj Bars 1-3 to Fmin in Bar4 because Bbm7-Eb7 is ii V of AbMaj.
    But again Bbm7-Eb7 is FMaj or F lydian...... if you want


    Although i said dont alter etc this is not really altering, more but interpreting the harmony differently
    ie Fmin = AbMaj .........relative minor etc

    Hearing the tonality when it changes allows one to be more musical, not overcomplicating, since its
    fast & several key changes, subbing tritoning can complicate especially in this tune, .....but not to say you shouldn't. ............... Play with musical taste.

  26. #25

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    yea generally you need an analysis to start with... so you can decide what tonal targets you want to work with...

    A I VI II V is generally just a Chord pattern with analysis of Tonic. I understand there is a mini functional analysis within the Chord Pattern.... but that has been played and developed so much... it has become... a "Chord Pattern" with standard Jazz Common Practice usage... and analysis.

    The IV- (Bb-7) is really the only harmonic target that gets interesting.... where you get a chance to get away from the Key. Doesn't matter whether you want to think of the Bb- as related II- of bVII....Eb7... or as IV- with related V7... their both from Parallel Minor...


    The rest of the changes are are basically just use of Subs... I think I have a Vid of that Tune.
    Anyway.... Subs, Tal... the approach has many options... it just depends what you want to call the Reference... the reference is just the tonal target you choose to use as starting harmonic point for using Subs.

    The standard subs... are tri-tone... with either inverting a tritone and using the new 7th chord....Bb7 becomes E7. Or you can use Root motion.... Bb to E.... and the chord can be of your choice. Same principal... just takes more organization... harmonic organization. Then their are ....the standard Borrowing subs.... relative and Parallel thing. Go modal interchange and you come up with many more options of same principal... When you start using Chord Patterns.... you get a bunch more.

    Ex.... think of II- V as chord pattern.... the jazz basic etc... So in almost any harmonic context.... any tune, the Chord pattern of II- V can use as the Harmonic Target....(target is what becomes the Reference), The actual II-, the V7 or the implied I of that II-V
    D-7 G7.... the target of your improv can be D-7.... or G7 or the implied I... Cma7.

    With I VI II V.... a longer chord pattern.... there are even more possibilities.

    So generally when I'm performing Joy Spring.... the 1st four bars have a basic changes.... F6/9 D7#9 / G-7 C79 / A-7 D7/ Bb-7 Eb7/
    the / A-7 D7#9 or Ab13/ G-7 C7 and turn around. I play much more , it's just a blues tune... right. I mean it doesn't need to be... you can just play like your playin swing dance music. But where's the fun in that.

    Maybe you should go through the motion of taking single chords going to all the possibilities , ex Bb7 going to Eb, E F etc and all types of chords and and start using subs. Add all the extensions and you'll begin to see as well as hear...which subs work best. Then do same thing with those chords and subs in tunes.... there are only so many types of chord movements etc...

    Yea then you should... expand the single chord to Chord Patterns... Chord Patterns are basically just chords from tunes. Chord patterns that become common practice, jazz common practice because they're used in jazz tunes.

    I get it... these are things that you you should have done as kid.... but as adults... most will get even more out of the drills.

    OK here's the vid, from 2011..., pretty old LOL I still suck
    .

  27. #26
    Thanks Reg. Very nice playing. Just want to ask 2 quick questions to make sure that I understood a couple of things correctly:
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Ex.... think of II- V as chord pattern.... the jazz basic etc... So in almost any harmonic context.... any tune, the Chord pattern of II- V can use as the Harmonic Target....(target is what becomes the Reference), The actual II-, the V7 or the implied I of that II-V
    D-7 G7.... the target of your improv can be D-7.... or G7 or the implied I... Cma7.
    Considering Imaj as the harmonic target of II- V is of course an obvious choice. But you said target (or reference) could also be say II-. By that do you mean taking II- as the temporary key (either dorian or MM) and treating II V as a Imin IV7 in that key. Therefore applying functional substitutions to Imin in ways that harmonic functions work in that temporary key?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Maybe you should go through the motion of taking single chords going to all the possibilities , ex Bb7 going to Eb, E F etc and all types of chords and and start using subs. Add all the extensions and you'll begin to see as well as hear...which subs work best. Then do same thing with those chords and subs in tunes.... there are only so many types of chord movements etc...
    So for example first practice lines where Bb7 is going to Ebmaj. Then substituting Bb7 with say E7. Ie E7 going to Ebmaj, then may be substituting Bb7 for example with back door (Db7 going to Eb) etc etc. Then start over with Bb7 going to a different chord?

  28. #27
    Thanks ragman for good ideas. Finding out how others approach these types of changes was the point of my post. I think I need to clarify something though, I'm all for simplification. In fact in my original post, I presented one simplification as an idea. A big part of the thread is to find out what other ways people tend to simplify this. But before you can simplify it, I think it needs to be analyzed and understood. Of course you can do that aurally as well, but that wouldn't translate well on an internet forum.

    That said, keeping it busy and playing all the changes and more is also valid. One doesn't always have to play the same way chorus after chorus. Variation is good. So I'm interested in finding out about busier approaches as well.

  29. #28

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    I was rushing a bit. I'm going to correct the (minor) errors and re-post. May as well get it right!

    I know you simplified the changes. Of course they have to be analysed but there's analysing and analysing. If you see how the changes are derived then very little analysis is necessary, if any. I mean, you don't have analyse to know that Ab is a tritone sub for D, for example.

    But apart from that I was really talking about soloing over them. One doesn't have to break one's fingers trying to enunciate every chord. Let the background do the work.

    But I'll re-post (after necessary shopping excursion, unfortunately).

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I mean, you don't have analyse to know that Ab is a tritone sub for D, for example.
    Again just to clarify. I don't have to anlayse to know the tritone relationship between Ab and D. I'm sure that's true with a lot of people on the forum. That's why I put the analysis in the appendix so most would skip it. But there are people with various levels of familiarity with this stuff read the forum. Some who are just getting into it. So what's presented in the analysis may not be so obvious to them. Also some may disagree with my analysis which is important to clarify as it's the basis of any simplification.

    I like the idea suggested by some, that is to look at this progression functionally, not so much as specific chord changes and treat it as a collection of variations with the same fundamental functional progression.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-22-2019 at 10:14 AM.

  31. #30

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    I’ve just listened to the version I did a few years ago for the practical standards thread. It sounds like I outlined the Bbm7 each time but treated the remaining chords in that section largely as ‘stuff in F’. So quite simplistic really, not trying to outline all those chords. I think that if I played it now I would try to outline at least some of those changes at times, for a bit more variety. (By the way I have completely forgotten how to play the head!)

    (edit: it sounds like I did try once at 2:25 to do some kind of chromatic descending figure to suggest those changes).


  32. #31

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    Jeff M & Reg both cool videos and playing as always,

    some were complicating TTone & subs etc i only meant to say its not necsary ( not meaning you cant should not )

    Reg said: "it just depends what you want to call the Reference... the reference is just the tonal target you choose to use as starting harmonic point for using Subs."

    Yes important, you can only sub/ TT if you know/hear the reference from what you are subbing or TT for/from


    Joy Spring has strong Tonal areas F Gb likewise the bridge, You CanT Alter something if you dont hear/know the original reference. Hence my initial take dont over complicate kids, and not a put down, as most know this, but for those who dont. Joy Spring 32 Bars AABA several key changes, fairly quickly


    A1 |Fma7 |Gmi7 C7 |Fma7 |Bbmi7 Eb7 | Ami7 D7 |Gmi7 C7 |Fma7 |Abmi7 Db7 ||
    first three Bars key of FMaj can be accommodated with an FMaj scale

    ** 4th measure of A1 A2 A3 is a II-V prog in the key a minor 3rd up, like a key change FMaj to Fmin or AbMaj.
    the interest here is the change of key. Bars5-7 a III-VI-II-V-I turnaround to get back home to F major. Bar8 ii v to next key GbMaj. Now we can alter the VI D7#9 going to ii Amin


    A2 |Gbma7 |Abmi7 Db7 |Gbma7 |Bmi7 E7 |Bbmi7 Eb7 |Abmi7 Db7 |Gbma7 |Ami7 D7 ||
    first three Bars key of GbMaj also accommodated with an GbMaj scale
    GbMaj unusually repeats the same just up a ½ step in GbMaj. Bar15 again ii v up to new key Gmaj ie GbMaj to GMaj


    B
    ridge |Gma7 |Gmi7 C7 |Fma7 |Fmi7 Bb7 |Ebma7 |Ab-7 Db7 |Gbma7 |Gmi7 C7 ||

    II-V-I progressions in G, F, Eb & GbMaj. last measure II-V to home FMaj.


    A3 repeat first A1 ending with a ii V in FMaj home key.

    as i mentioned measure 4 A1 A2 A3 may also be thought of as ( backdoor progression, iV7 bV7 ) not resolving to I but to very closely related iii chord: ie iv Bbm7 ++ bV7 Eb7 and in many tunes eg ( Misty bar4-5 ) ( Stella B8-9 ) etc .

    Its is also a ii V up a minor 3rd from Fmaj to AbMaj now Bbm7 is ii7 & Eb7 V7

    Of course opportunities for ++Melodic Minor (lydian dominant) and Sub and Tri Tones for added colour or interest.
    IMO in Joy spring the Keys are so strong and do deviate like every 4th measure of A sections, creating harmonic interest and why i said its not necessary to over complicate. Listen to Joe Pass on his album called Joy Spring.

    ...to recap its fairly straight, then you can play whatever you think is musical, sometimes a plain sandwich is good,

    ..... Garlic is great, but not on corn flakes.

    a while since i posted, struggling to climb back into the saddle, unfortunately losing that health fight, but still composing.
    Durban
    Last edited by Durban; 09-22-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    version I did a few years ago



    good boy Graham, sounds like son of Joe

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Thanks Reg. Very nice playing. Just want to ask 2 quick questions to make sure that I understood a couple of things correctly:

    Considering Imaj as the harmonic target of II- V is of course an obvious choice. But you said target (or reference) could also be say II-. By that do you mean taking II- as the temporary key (either dorian or MM) and treating II V as a Imin IV7 in that key. Therefore applying functional substitutions to Imin in ways that harmonic functions work in that temporary key?


    So for example first practice lines where Bb7 is going to Ebmaj. Then substituting Bb7 with say E7. Ie E7 going to Ebmaj, then may be substituting Bb7 for example with back door (Db7 going to Eb) etc etc. Then start over with Bb7 going to a different chord?
    Hey Tal...Yes... those are some of the options I use... Obviously... the further away from the basic tonal center of the tune you get.... the more you need to use other performance techniques to not sound out,(unless your in to that). So the easiest way is to use harmonic rhythm... (harmonic rhythm is just the basic big rhythmic organization of chords and what they imply.)
    So I think of that rhythmic pattern, the groove, the Harmonic groove...the Reference Chords and their rhythmic locations... as the strong beats or attacks.... is easy to play almost anything on the weak beats...

    I think and hear function... both chords or melodic. I also use function subs... Tonic, dominant and Subdominant. Many players don't use subdominant that much... but personally that's where I have the most fun.... not as black and white...

    And then taking another step in same direction.... different styles, licks or patterns... that are recognizable, can also be used as subs...the obvious being Blue Note chord patterns or melodic patterns.... Function is just relationships between chords or notes... so if you have functional licks or chord patterns.... you can use them with same approach... as subs. The cool part is ... generally they already have spice... they're not so vanilla. You sound like you like to use MM....this approach is cool approach to incorporating MM into your playing without going through all the mechanical theory BS.

    I like all the theory, harmony BS... but not so much when performing. I mean how many performances do you play for musicians etc... and most don't want to pay etc... sorry. Point is this approach can be applied in almost unlimited applications.

  35. #34

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    First time someone has compared me to Joe, I am most humbly gratified!

    Instructive to hear his version, listening to just the first chorus I think he outlines those changes on the first A section but goes more vanilla on the other two.


  36. #35

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    QUOTE=grahambop;979359]I’ve just listened to the version I did a few years ago for the practical standards thread. It sounds like I outlined the Bbm7 each time but treated the remaining chords in that section largely as ‘stuff in F’. So quite simplistic really, not trying to outline all those chords.
    That's exactly what I said, basically, only I said why as well. It basically goes:

    F - C7 - F - C7
    F - C7 - F - Db7

    The Eb7 is a backdoor sub. The Am is an F sub. So is the Dm -> D7 -> Ab7. So it's all F stuff :-)

    Also, like the blues scale over various blues progressions, the 'F stuff' works over all the tritone combinations. I know, I tried it!

    But, soloing, I'd emphasis the Eb7 too although it's a bit like hard work


    (I thought your outlining the changes at 2.25 was fine as it impacted on the ear, certainly better than doing it every time)

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Let's take a progression from Joy Spring as an example (F major):

    Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin7 C7| Fmaj7

    Obviously this is just iii vi ii V I with standard substitutions* (see analysis below if you are not sure).
    One simplification is to drop the two's and just think dominants:
    | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F

    But then Ab7 going to C7 is a bit awkward since Ab7 is really looking for a minor target (G min specifically). Also we are completely losing this nice chromatic voice leading in the bass (A Ab G).
    What is your approach in these situations?


    *Analysis:
    | Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | is really | Amin7 | Dmin7 | (iii vi) with standard substitutions:

    Amin7 -> A7 (secondary dominant) -> Eb7 (tritone) -> Bbmin7 Eb7 (adding ii).

    Dmin7 -> D7 (secondary dominant) -> Amin7 D7 (adding ii) -> Amin7 Ab7 (tritone to only dominant)
    To be honest I just play it like 1 6 2 5

  38. #37

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    turnarounds can all be exchanged for one another any of the subs suggested above and more besides.

    It’s hard to explain it, but if you play your shit with enough authority and presence, it will come out. The only rule is that you hear your line as you play it.

    You could play Trane changes on it if you wanted and it would read if you heard it strong enough. And yes that’s against any vanilla stuff a rhythm section might play....

    (Hal Galper’s Forward Motion is the thing that opened my hearing up to this. Also Steve Coleman’s concept of invisible paths. And then of course Barry has a version of this idea, and Reg too, and so on)

    starting out I always thought it was about playing through changes.

    That’s not the correct way of saying it: We don’t play through changes. We play changes.

    Otherwise why would you spend so much time learning to play chord tones and outline harmonies? You wouldn’t need to do that if you were just playing through changes - that would be redundant. It’s because the jazz improviser has to learn to outline chords in their playing.

    They don’t have always have to be the same chords as everyone else. In fact it’s better if they aren’t.

    Ask Joe. Ask Bird. Or Joel Frahm or Donny McCaslin for that matter. They will tell you.

    Last edited by christianm77; 09-22-2019 at 03:19 PM.

  39. #38

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    TL;DR don’t ask permission from the changes, take command of the harmony. If that makes any sense.

  40. #39

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    Yea... it's a simple tune.... simple AABA form... some variations of harmony...

    So backdoor subs are generally from Borrowing or modal interchange. The ex. in Joy Spring... Ab-7 Eb7... which should resolve to Abmaj.....goes to III- chord Amin7.... a Diatonic Sub of Fmaj7.....(or play off the 7th chords)... but when you actually play the tune.... I mean the melody spells out a typical II V over Ab-7 Eb7.... But really the tune has many choices as to where you may want to go melodically with Harmonic organizations.

    Subs are great approach for expanding Harmony... which will expand your soloing options. The same lick will have different feel with different chords....... and licks will have different feel over subs... I mean a note without harmony has no meaning. It's fun to just Pedal a F13, or some C-11 voicing... chord over the A sections, (F13 and then F#13)... and actually solo using changes.... you'll get Blue very quickly, that I V thing. Anyway it make the B section really come alive etc... Pedals are great way to feel like the form changes while keeping form steady etc...

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    First time someone has compared me to Joe, I am most humbly gratified!

    Glad you listened to J Pass vers, thats what i was talking about, not overly complicating, You can hear Joe's not thinkimg
    oh TTone hear sub there, he knows the tune and plays it.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post

    OK here's the vid, from 2011..., pretty old LOL I still suck
    .
    Hey Reg,

    Great tone and great ideas! I'm going to steal them all :-)

    Seriously, though, your approach of playing to a target/tonal center and bluesing it up, instead of getting too hung up on spelling out every change, is really cool. I tend to outline changes maybe a bit too much and I wind up not seeing the forest for the trees, if you get my drift.

    BTW is that a KA pickup? What amp are you using in this vid? And as long as I'm quizzing you, strings and axe?

    Thanks again for sharing your playing with all of us!

    SJ

  43. #42

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    Thanks SJ...

    Yea being aware of where your at... is not a bad thing. When I was young.... back in the stone age.... we all played chord tones and melodic arpeggio style improve... spell the changes with melody reference... was cool... but really got old. As the berklee thing spread.. playing became really fun. It still is...

    The pickup is a Bartolini
    Strings are Thomastik... bebops 13-53, I use a 22 for 3rd string , instead of the stock 21.
    I generally gig with ARE's with extra small PA speaker, not for vol. just so everyone on stage or gig can hear and feel my presence.
    That recording is just using an old Yamaha 50 from late 60's.... it's not the amp.... good guitar and bartolini's have great jazz sound.

    thanks again.... I'm around for awhile... so I'll be jumping in all over the forum... I'll try and add more playing vids... I owe Matt a few to start with...

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    I generally gig with ARE's with extra small PA speaker
    AER? Or am I missing this? Thanks...

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine View Post
    AER? Or am I missing this? Thanks...
    Sorry... AER. Audio Electric Research
    Thanks

  46. #45

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    Thanks - yeah, they are nice amps!

  47. #46

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    +1 more playing vids.