The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I mean, you don't have analyse to know that Ab is a tritone sub for D, for example.
    Again just to clarify. I don't have to anlayse to know the tritone relationship between Ab and D. I'm sure that's true with a lot of people on the forum. That's why I put the analysis in the appendix so most would skip it. But there are people with various levels of familiarity with this stuff read the forum. Some who are just getting into it. So what's presented in the analysis may not be so obvious to them. Also some may disagree with my analysis which is important to clarify as it's the basis of any simplification.

    I like the idea suggested by some, that is to look at this progression functionally, not so much as specific chord changes and treat it as a collection of variations with the same fundamental functional progression.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-22-2019 at 10:14 AM.

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  3. #27

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    I’ve just listened to the version I did a few years ago for the practical standards thread. It sounds like I outlined the Bbm7 each time but treated the remaining chords in that section largely as ‘stuff in F’. So quite simplistic really, not trying to outline all those chords. I think that if I played it now I would try to outline at least some of those changes at times, for a bit more variety. (By the way I have completely forgotten how to play the head!)

    (edit: it sounds like I did try once at 2:25 to do some kind of chromatic descending figure to suggest those changes).


  4. #28

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    Jeff M & Reg both cool videos and playing as always,

    some were complicating TTone & subs etc i only meant to say its not necsary ( not meaning you cant should not )

    Reg said: "it just depends what you want to call the Reference... the reference is just the tonal target you choose to use as starting harmonic point for using Subs."

    Yes important, you can only sub/ TT if you know/hear the reference from what you are subbing or TT for/from


    Joy Spring has strong Tonal areas F Gb likewise the bridge, You CanT Alter something if you dont hear/know the original reference. Hence my initial take dont over complicate kids, and not a put down, as most know this, but for those who dont. Joy Spring 32 Bars AABA several key changes, fairly quickly


    A1 |Fma7 |Gmi7 C7 |Fma7 |Bbmi7 Eb7 | Ami7 D7 |Gmi7 C7 |Fma7 |Abmi7 Db7 ||
    first three Bars key of FMaj can be accommodated with an FMaj scale

    ** 4th measure of A1 A2 A3 is a II-V prog in the key a minor 3rd up, like a key change FMaj to Fmin or AbMaj.
    the interest here is the change of key. Bars5-7 a III-VI-II-V-I turnaround to get back home to F major. Bar8 ii v to next key GbMaj. Now we can alter the VI D7#9 going to ii Amin


    A2 |Gbma7 |Abmi7 Db7 |Gbma7 |Bmi7 E7 |Bbmi7 Eb7 |Abmi7 Db7 |Gbma7 |Ami7 D7 ||
    first three Bars key of GbMaj also accommodated with an GbMaj scale
    GbMaj unusually repeats the same just up a ½ step in GbMaj. Bar15 again ii v up to new key Gmaj ie GbMaj to GMaj


    B
    ridge |Gma7 |Gmi7 C7 |Fma7 |Fmi7 Bb7 |Ebma7 |Ab-7 Db7 |Gbma7 |Gmi7 C7 ||

    II-V-I progressions in G, F, Eb & GbMaj. last measure II-V to home FMaj.


    A3 repeat first A1 ending with a ii V in FMaj home key.

    as i mentioned measure 4 A1 A2 A3 may also be thought of as ( backdoor progression, iV7 bV7 ) not resolving to I but to very closely related iii chord: ie iv Bbm7 ++ bV7 Eb7 and in many tunes eg ( Misty bar4-5 ) ( Stella B8-9 ) etc .

    Its is also a ii V up a minor 3rd from Fmaj to AbMaj now Bbm7 is ii7 & Eb7 V7

    Of course opportunities for ++Melodic Minor (lydian dominant) and Sub and Tri Tones for added colour or interest.
    IMO in Joy spring the Keys are so strong and do deviate like every 4th measure of A sections, creating harmonic interest and why i said its not necessary to over complicate. Listen to Joe Pass on his album called Joy Spring.

    ...to recap its fairly straight, then you can play whatever you think is musical, sometimes a plain sandwich is good,

    ..... Garlic is great, but not on corn flakes.

    a while since i posted, struggling to climb back into the saddle, unfortunately losing that health fight, but still composing.
    Durban
    Last edited by Durban; 09-22-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    version I did a few years ago



    good boy Graham, sounds like son of Joe

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Thanks Reg. Very nice playing. Just want to ask 2 quick questions to make sure that I understood a couple of things correctly:

    Considering Imaj as the harmonic target of II- V is of course an obvious choice. But you said target (or reference) could also be say II-. By that do you mean taking II- as the temporary key (either dorian or MM) and treating II V as a Imin IV7 in that key. Therefore applying functional substitutions to Imin in ways that harmonic functions work in that temporary key?


    So for example first practice lines where Bb7 is going to Ebmaj. Then substituting Bb7 with say E7. Ie E7 going to Ebmaj, then may be substituting Bb7 for example with back door (Db7 going to Eb) etc etc. Then start over with Bb7 going to a different chord?
    Hey Tal...Yes... those are some of the options I use... Obviously... the further away from the basic tonal center of the tune you get.... the more you need to use other performance techniques to not sound out,(unless your in to that). So the easiest way is to use harmonic rhythm... (harmonic rhythm is just the basic big rhythmic organization of chords and what they imply.)
    So I think of that rhythmic pattern, the groove, the Harmonic groove...the Reference Chords and their rhythmic locations... as the strong beats or attacks.... is easy to play almost anything on the weak beats...

    I think and hear function... both chords or melodic. I also use function subs... Tonic, dominant and Subdominant. Many players don't use subdominant that much... but personally that's where I have the most fun.... not as black and white...

    And then taking another step in same direction.... different styles, licks or patterns... that are recognizable, can also be used as subs...the obvious being Blue Note chord patterns or melodic patterns.... Function is just relationships between chords or notes... so if you have functional licks or chord patterns.... you can use them with same approach... as subs. The cool part is ... generally they already have spice... they're not so vanilla. You sound like you like to use MM....this approach is cool approach to incorporating MM into your playing without going through all the mechanical theory BS.

    I like all the theory, harmony BS... but not so much when performing. I mean how many performances do you play for musicians etc... and most don't want to pay etc... sorry. Point is this approach can be applied in almost unlimited applications.

  7. #31

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    First time someone has compared me to Joe, I am most humbly gratified!

    Instructive to hear his version, listening to just the first chorus I think he outlines those changes on the first A section but goes more vanilla on the other two.


  8. #32

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    QUOTE=grahambop;979359]I’ve just listened to the version I did a few years ago for the practical standards thread. It sounds like I outlined the Bbm7 each time but treated the remaining chords in that section largely as ‘stuff in F’. So quite simplistic really, not trying to outline all those chords.
    That's exactly what I said, basically, only I said why as well. It basically goes:

    F - C7 - F - C7
    F - C7 - F - Db7

    The Eb7 is a backdoor sub. The Am is an F sub. So is the Dm -> D7 -> Ab7. So it's all F stuff :-)

    Also, like the blues scale over various blues progressions, the 'F stuff' works over all the tritone combinations. I know, I tried it!

    But, soloing, I'd emphasis the Eb7 too although it's a bit like hard work


    (I thought your outlining the changes at 2.25 was fine as it impacted on the ear, certainly better than doing it every time)

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Let's take a progression from Joy Spring as an example (F major):

    Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | Gmin7 C7| Fmaj7

    Obviously this is just iii vi ii V I with standard substitutions* (see analysis below if you are not sure).
    One simplification is to drop the two's and just think dominants:
    | Eb7 | Ab7 | C7 | F

    But then Ab7 going to C7 is a bit awkward since Ab7 is really looking for a minor target (G min specifically). Also we are completely losing this nice chromatic voice leading in the bass (A Ab G).
    What is your approach in these situations?


    *Analysis:
    | Bbmin7 Eb7 | Amin7 Ab7 | is really | Amin7 | Dmin7 | (iii vi) with standard substitutions:

    Amin7 -> A7 (secondary dominant) -> Eb7 (tritone) -> Bbmin7 Eb7 (adding ii).

    Dmin7 -> D7 (secondary dominant) -> Amin7 D7 (adding ii) -> Amin7 Ab7 (tritone to only dominant)
    To be honest I just play it like 1 6 2 5

  10. #34

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    turnarounds can all be exchanged for one another any of the subs suggested above and more besides.

    It’s hard to explain it, but if you play your shit with enough authority and presence, it will come out. The only rule is that you hear your line as you play it.

    You could play Trane changes on it if you wanted and it would read if you heard it strong enough. And yes that’s against any vanilla stuff a rhythm section might play....

    (Hal Galper’s Forward Motion is the thing that opened my hearing up to this. Also Steve Coleman’s concept of invisible paths. And then of course Barry has a version of this idea, and Reg too, and so on)

    starting out I always thought it was about playing through changes.

    That’s not the correct way of saying it: We don’t play through changes. We play changes.

    Otherwise why would you spend so much time learning to play chord tones and outline harmonies? You wouldn’t need to do that if you were just playing through changes - that would be redundant. It’s because the jazz improviser has to learn to outline chords in their playing.

    They don’t have always have to be the same chords as everyone else. In fact it’s better if they aren’t.

    Ask Joe. Ask Bird. Or Joel Frahm or Donny McCaslin for that matter. They will tell you.

    Last edited by christianm77; 09-22-2019 at 03:19 PM.

  11. #35

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    TL;DR don’t ask permission from the changes, take command of the harmony. If that makes any sense.

  12. #36

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    Yea... it's a simple tune.... simple AABA form... some variations of harmony...

    So backdoor subs are generally from Borrowing or modal interchange. The ex. in Joy Spring... Ab-7 Eb7... which should resolve to Abmaj.....goes to III- chord Amin7.... a Diatonic Sub of Fmaj7.....(or play off the 7th chords)... but when you actually play the tune.... I mean the melody spells out a typical II V over Ab-7 Eb7.... But really the tune has many choices as to where you may want to go melodically with Harmonic organizations.

    Subs are great approach for expanding Harmony... which will expand your soloing options. The same lick will have different feel with different chords....... and licks will have different feel over subs... I mean a note without harmony has no meaning. It's fun to just Pedal a F13, or some C-11 voicing... chord over the A sections, (F13 and then F#13)... and actually solo using changes.... you'll get Blue very quickly, that I V thing. Anyway it make the B section really come alive etc... Pedals are great way to feel like the form changes while keeping form steady etc...

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    First time someone has compared me to Joe, I am most humbly gratified!

    Glad you listened to J Pass vers, thats what i was talking about, not overly complicating, You can hear Joe's not thinkimg
    oh TTone hear sub there, he knows the tune and plays it.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    OK here's the vid, from 2011..., pretty old LOL I still suck
    .
    Hey Reg,

    Great tone and great ideas! I'm going to steal them all :-)

    Seriously, though, your approach of playing to a target/tonal center and bluesing it up, instead of getting too hung up on spelling out every change, is really cool. I tend to outline changes maybe a bit too much and I wind up not seeing the forest for the trees, if you get my drift.

    BTW is that a KA pickup? What amp are you using in this vid? And as long as I'm quizzing you, strings and axe?

    Thanks again for sharing your playing with all of us!

    SJ

  15. #39

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    Thanks SJ...

    Yea being aware of where your at... is not a bad thing. When I was young.... back in the stone age.... we all played chord tones and melodic arpeggio style improve... spell the changes with melody reference... was cool... but really got old. As the berklee thing spread.. playing became really fun. It still is...

    The pickup is a Bartolini
    Strings are Thomastik... bebops 13-53, I use a 22 for 3rd string , instead of the stock 21.
    I generally gig with ARE's with extra small PA speaker, not for vol. just so everyone on stage or gig can hear and feel my presence.
    That recording is just using an old Yamaha 50 from late 60's.... it's not the amp.... good guitar and bartolini's have great jazz sound.

    thanks again.... I'm around for awhile... so I'll be jumping in all over the forum... I'll try and add more playing vids... I owe Matt a few to start with...

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I generally gig with ARE's with extra small PA speaker
    AER? Or am I missing this? Thanks...

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    AER? Or am I missing this? Thanks...
    Sorry... AER. Audio Electric Research
    Thanks

  18. #42

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    Thanks - yeah, they are nice amps!

  19. #43

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    +1 more playing vids.