The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I am new to soloing over a modal type of song like this one and I am looking for feedback to improve on this. For this recording I transcribed a few phrases I liked, changed them up a bit, and tried to make them motifs. I also played around with triads and attempted to vary the rhythm. I'm trying to move away from thinking Dorian scale and more so melody lines to make the solo go somewhere. I attempted to use enclosures in practice but I am finding it hard to make enclosures flow naturally in a phrase.

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  3. #2

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    There are obviously some good effects there if you want to use them. Which you should.

    At that speed you won't play it the way it's supposed to go, your phrasing will be different. So you probably need to start playing it more up to speed, or a bit faster anyway to get the feel of the actual tune. It needs a bit more urgency.

    You're not using scales enough, or at least lines of notes (rather than one effect after another). Listen to Miles or other players and you'll hear lines, not effects. You don't have to go mad like Coltrane, of course.


    (You can use Dorian notes, basically, with passing notes thrown in - check out what sax and trumpet players are doing, not just guitar players).

    Stringing effects together isn't really a cohesive solo, it sounds too deliberately put together.

    What you need to do is remember your effects and then let go, forget them, and just launch into it. While you're soloing lines then you can pop in an effect or two in. But at the moment it sounds like all you've got is a patchwork of effects as it were.

    So - play it faster, more like the real tune. You want some kind of meaningful lines plus the odd effect to keep the listener's ear interested.

    Apart from that, pretty good, there's obviously a lot of musical sense in there.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    There are obviously some good effects there if you want to use them. Which you should.

    At that speed you won't play it the way it's supposed to go, your phrasing will be different. So you probably need to start playing it more up to speed, or a bit faster anyway to get the feel of the actual tune.

    You're not using scales enough, or at least lines of notes (rather than one effect after another). Listen to Miles or other players and you'll hear lines, not effects.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooz0toWts0Y

    (You can use Dorian notes, basically, with passing notes thrown in - check out what sax and trumpet players are doing, not just guitar players).

    Stringing effects together isn't really a cohesive solo, it sounds too deliberately put together.

    What you need to do is remember your effects and then let go, forget them, and just launch into it. While you're soloing lines then you can pop in an effect or two in. But at the moment it sounds like all you've got is a patchwork of effects as it were.

    So - play it faster, more like the real tune. You want some kind of meaningful lines plus the odd effect to keep the listener's ear interested.

    Apart from that, pretty good, there's obviously a lot of musical sense in there.
    Thank you for the feedback, this is helpful. Yes you're right, it was a patchwork of phrases, like one separate thing after the other rather than a fluid improvisation. If I were to play it faster, I wouldn't be able to do that and it would force me to use the dorian/passing notes in a more fluid manner. I usually think I won't use certain ideas and sound random/noodly if I don't think while playing but I will work on letting go.

  5. #4

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    I've slightly edited what I wrote since you quoted it... not to worry.

    The more you play it the easier it gets. If you look at that vid even Miles repeats himself a lot, that line going up the scale. But some of your effects are definitively good, no question.

    It's not a question of rushing round it, it just needs a bit more 'urgency' or something, a bit more push.

  6. #5

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    Sing a solo without playing guitar, and listen to your phrasing. Then sing as you solo, like Benson and others have done. Sing-a-long-a-Miles's solo too.

  7. #6

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    [QUOTE] pretty good, there's obviously a lot of musical sense in there.

  8. #7

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    Incidentally, I've just run through this a few times... this may help.

    Basically the best way to get fluent notes is to use the two major scales, C and Db. They give you all the essential notes and therefore lines. (Audio 1)

    From that you have other options (I'll just stick to Dm).

    First you have the Dm pentatonic. You also have the Em pentatonic. That is, DFAC and EGBD. That's all the notes of C major - i.e. D Dorian. But you can also use the blue notes, Ab for Dm and Bb for Em. (Audio 2)

    You've also got all the triads - Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bm(7b5) and C. (Audio 3)

    Because you're in C, try using the subs you'd use over G7 - F melodic minor, G wholetone, and Ab melodic minor. They work for a brief outside sound. But they only sound good over the Dm, not the Ebm. (Audio 4)

    You can also use chromatic approach notes over the triads (or even the 7 chords in C) - i.e. going 'underneath' a chord like Dm6 - C#/D, E/F, Ab/A, Bb/B, and so on. Or any of the others. (Audio 5)

    Because this is a modal tune, bringing out the sound of the 4ths is a good idea - D/G, E/A, F/B, G/C, etc. But the triads and pentatonics will also do that. (Audio 6). The last trick is play any outside notes you like momentarily... always impressive. (also in Audio 6)

    Then, of course, shift it all up a half-tone for the Ebm bit. As long as the shifts up and down resolve nicely into each other it'll all sound fine.

    Finally you just throw the whole thing in together.

    Simple really (not) :-)



  9. #8

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    The track is low, it's kinda hard to hear if you're locking in rhythmically. You have rhythmic interest in your lines, I just can't hear them with the background.

    You're playing the head kind of weird...

    You establish some motifs i like in the solo. You chase an idea just before two minutes, getting up the neck with some triads, but then you back off of it...would have liked to hear you go for a big climax there, even if you missed it. It was a really cool idea.

    I think it's fine to play bluesy stuff like you did, and those lines seemed pretty comfortable for you. You can go more scalar if there's an actual melodic line you're going after, but I wouldn't do it just to do it. But creating some balance between the shorter phrases and longer would be good.

    Keep working, i'd say all of the pieces of the puzzle are there.

  10. #9

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    Here's a fun, uptempo version by the late Ronny Jordan. Maybe his hip guitar solo and the keyboard player's solo can give you some ideas.


  11. #10

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    Listening to this now.

    1) Great sound! Deep, warm, I just want to take a bath in it.
    2) Nice feel I think, too, nice and relaxed.
    3) That's not quite how the head goes.

    OK now improvisation

    The first part of the solo is a little repetitive rhythmically, not necessarily a bad thing, nice bluesy ideas second A, starting to explore the upper extensions on the Ebm7 chord, OK last A came unhooked from the time a little on one of those phrases.

    Next chorus. OK miles quote, nice. Again crisp melodic phrases, very pleasant to listen to, just watch the time a little sometimes.

    A sense of compositional devices and different techniques being employed. Good. Clearly you've looked into Miles's solo an extracted some useful ideas and information from it.

    Keep going. This is highly musical playing, sounds like its led by the ear, not the fingers. Strong start. The more shit you check out, the more you'll have to say.

    You could explore some more rhythmically diverse ideas. Trying starting phrases in different places in the bar, 1, 1+, 2, 2+ and so on. Also I get a lot of mileage out of practicing with a clave - Drum Genius has a great setting for this.

    Harmonically, I get a lot of mileage out of playing the progression as if it was a G7 vamp on Dm7, employing bop language (if you know any) and playing II-V-I's into the minor chords. You want to check out some phrases of Cannonball, who is the master of this approach.

    Also, don't be afraid of C# haha.

  12. #11

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    Listening to it a second time and reading the other comments, I would like to +1 to what Rob said above.

    Some phrases sound very rhythmically conceived, others are a little meandering. You don't have to hear all the notes in the solo in your head, but you need to feel and hear the rhythms.

    Singing phrases will help with that. They don't have to be your own, of course, if you have trouble thinking of something.

  13. #12

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    Definitely speed it up so syncopated phrases sound more naturally hip. Because the harmony shifts up and down a step, you can do some cools things. For example, if you add extensions and alterations you can increase the notes common to both harmonies (both harmonies will take diminished lines as well; so similarly, you have additional notes) and use those in various ways:

    - as pivots between harmony changes (like using the b5th of the upper harmony to move to the 5th of the lower harmony)
    - as overlapping transitions (similar to above using extensions rather than chord tones, phrased differently to lead or lag the harmony change)
    - as cross harmony repeats (similar to above, finding lines that share notes across the harmony change, deliberately repeating a line that only changes maybe one note
    - etc...

  14. #13
    After listening to the original again and paying more attention to the head, I see that I did not play the head properly. That's embarassing

    This sort of feedback goes way beyond what I expected and I appreciate you all a lot for this. I was a bit scared to post any clips of my playing here but I'm glad I did. There's a lot here that I was not aware of and more options that I haven't thought to explore.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigglypuff
    After listening to the original again and paying more attention to the head, I see that I did not play the head properly. That's embarassing

    This sort of feedback goes way beyond what I expected and I appreciate you all a lot for this. I was a bit scared to post any clips of my playing here but I'm glad I did. There's a lot here that I was not aware of and more options that I haven't thought to explore.
    My advice would be - focus on one it of advice that appeals and work on that. Easy to get overwhelmed!

  16. #15

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    Besides of all analytic and probably good advices written, I would like to add, I definitely hear enjoyable musicality , liked it
    Last edited by Gabor; 09-11-2019 at 07:57 AM.

  17. #16

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    Jigglypuff -

    Jazz playing is hard, no question; it's not something one picks up overnight.

    To be honest, as you say, you hadn't listened to the head properly and consequently did your own version :-) Which is okay if, as an experienced player, that's what you meant to do as a variation. But it's wiser to master the original first.

    I noticed you also only played the tune. Most guitar players include the two m11 chords as part of it, D and E. That's x7778x and x5556x.

    This guy's doing it far too fast, of course, and then he goes too slow. But you'll get the idea.



    Your backing track was kind of relaxed and pleasant but didn't have the push of the original. I used this as a backing. It's not too fast by any means and does the trick. Some of the other available backing tracks aren't very good.



    Personally I never tell people exactly what notes to play for a solo because they'd just be imitating, which defeats the object of improvisation. But one can give guidelines, like emphasise the 4ths - D G A C F. If you look at a transcription on YouTube of the Miles Davis version you can see he's doing that. But try using the Em pentaonic as well as the Dm, you'll hear the effect.




    *******************

    I think most of us have responded favorably to your vid because it's obvious you have good musical feel; you have a flair for it. But jazz needs work and study, it doesn't just happen by itself. And that needs dedicated time which a lot of people might not have much of these days.

    Good luck anyway. If you do it again, come back and show us. Really.
    Last edited by ragman1; 09-11-2019 at 09:35 AM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jigglypuff
    I am new to soloing over a modal type of song like this one and I am looking for feedback to improve on this.
    If you are a book type Garrison Fewell's book "Jazz Improvisation for Guitar: A Melodic Approach" will give you plenty of ideas; in fact he addresses this very tune on page 28-29. In a nut shell the book is about triads and their melodic extensions and linking them together smoothly. So over Dm the following triads could work:

    D minor
    F major
    A minor
    C major

    Then the author states that the natural 6th degree is the characteristic note of the Dorian mode. That is B natural in D Dorian. So down a whole step is Am. Then all the triad of extensions of Am can be played over Dm. Triad extensions of Am:

    A minor (same as above)
    C major (same as above)
    E minor
    G major

    So that is six triads you can play over D minor in addition to all the other tools and techniques mentioned.

    One of the few jazz guitar books I actually got something out of...I think....