The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 28
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I've been practicing and trying to wrap my head around many of the concepts re: jazz playing for a couple years now. Never posted on this site before, mostly because a simple forum search has always answered my questions. Now I'm on something that I can't describe in a few simple keywords. . . sorry about the long explanation, hope this makes sense. . .

    I've read the opinion that at a certain point, it's best to forget about theory, what scale for what chord, etc., and simply "play what you hear." Okay, wanting the ability to do just that is a huge reason why I undertook studying this music in the first place (that and just loving the sound.) It dawned on me I had lost sight of that goal in the process of absorbing a huge amount of information.

    So, how does one actually practice such a thing, and improve?

    I can sure hear what I want to play in my head, even sing it out while I play the harmony or over records and hear it make musical sense. I just can't get the d*** notes under my fingers quick enough, and make lots of mistakes when I try!

    So far I've been trying to just go off melodies alone, adding little embellishments as they come to me. Trying to think about the music like Louis Armstrong might have

    Also going through tunes one measure at a time, thinking about what I'd want to play and trying to transcribe those licks like I would off a record.

    Both seem to be moving me towards where I want to be at. . . very slowly.

    Any feedback is appreciated. In time I'd love to give back for the great advice and know-how the players on this forum have been giving freely.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    This exact thing has been my focus for the last several months. I try to lock into the groove and play chromatically(from anywhere on the neck) I don't think of any chords or changes I try to feel what needs to be played. Sometimes I draw a blank and I'll toss in an arpeggio or a modal line to get me back "in the music". Victor Wooten's Groove DVD reaffirmed what I had already been working on since he advocates the same method. Don't worry about hitting a wrong note your one fret from a right note repeat it embrace it and move on. Enjoy its the fun way to play.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Before I knew theory, I learned from records by ear. I would listen and copy solos from the greats - not just guitarists, but folks like Louis - he was really one of the first recorded 'jazz soloists' after all!

    Learning theory was very valuable, but I still play along and learn from any and all musicians. It has helped me to practice for the ultimate goal: playing my own inner music as I hear it.That is sort of the opposite approach to what you are looking for, and seems too obvious & simple upon reflection to be useful, but it works for me.

    I should also mention that I have used looping and/or recording tools for many years, and these are excellent for quickly capturing your ideas and experimenting with the process you are working through. Hope this helps!

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Take a tune - say Autmn Leaves - or any jazz standard, and take a couple bars, maybe two, three or four, then just write down the melody to that piont but backwards, from the last note to the first - sometimes works as a start-off for improvising, and one of the oldest tricks in the book. Don't forget to give each note you play the same lenght as in the original melody. Pequod

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Imo, one way to get at this is singing lines and then playing what you sing. I work on this off and on. Starting off with simple lines over a ii V I progression, or whatever. Sing something, then find it. It gets easier over time. I have posted this vid a few times before in the past, but for me, this is the epitome of what we are talking about.


  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Wow John Pizarrelli is amazing.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    But, why isn't John singing the chords?
    This is indeed the peak, hearing it/singing it/playing it. And the tone! John, like his Dad, knows how to let the guitar speak, and what a FINE guitar!

    The only drawback is on the other side of the musical dialogue. I remember many concerts (Paul Bley, George Benson, Keith Jarrett, to name a few) where artists turned much of the audience off with their vocalizations. Here, John does it with panache - he's a great singer. But (and I have heard him play live) he rarely vocalizes in an ensemble setting.

    My point is that the illustration of this level of mastery should never compromise the communication of the music. It might resonate with those who understand what it really entails, but the general audience often finds it distracting or worse.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobWay
    The only drawback is on the other side of the musical dialogue. I remember many concerts (Paul Bley, George Benson, Keith Jarrett, to name a few) where artists turned much of the audience off with their vocalizations. Here, John does it with panache - he's a great singer. But (and I have heard him play live) he rarely vocalizes in an ensemble setting.

    My point is that the illustration of this level of mastery should never compromise the communication of the music. It might resonate with those who understand what it really entails, but the general audience often finds it distracting or worse.
    Absolutely agree with this point, and one of the main reasons I cannot listen to Oscar Peterson, or (in the classical realm) Christopher Parkening.

    I think singing along with the lines is fine while practicing, but keep it quiet while performing, please!

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    With Jon it is very much a gimmick though, same with Benson. This isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing but it's very much a gimmick. There are so many great players that sing what they play many of them it's 'under their breath'. I know that it surprised me when I discovered this when I would be in a lesson, hanging, going to concerts to see some of these cats and watching them sing along.

    As for the Play What you Hear thing.

    My Recommendation for realizing this concept is to go back and break Music into it's 3 fundamental elements.

    Rhythm
    Melody
    Harmony

    Now, when ppl were telling me to "play what I sing" I was baffled by this, it seemed to difficult until I decided to break it down and play what I heard in each different element of Music starting with Rhythm.

    IMO and many other ppl's opinion Rhythm is what makes Jazz what it is far more then any of the other two concepts, however is most often the most difficult to acquire and often times never taught in a structured way. Rhythm is that element that makes everything come together in Jazz because lets face it, there are only 12 notes and only so many combinations melodically and harmonically while Rhythm remains an unlimited possibility. Thus coming into terms with what you actually hear Rhythmically.

    Example, Pat Martino certainly hears things in long running 8th notes (or 16th notes pending tempos) while Miles Davis certainly heard things in simpiler rhythmic cells, Bird hear things in a very rapid fire context, Joe Henderson's rhythmic Concept was far more loose in the bar.

    Jack Dejonnet can probably hear 32 bars as 1 rhythmic entity (hence how he looses people in trading on live recordings) same with Tony Williams but Philly Joe Jones or Jimmy Cobb far more quarternote based rhythmic groove.

    Practing what you hear in a Rhythmic sense is basically just coming to terms with your own rhythmic identiy and arming yourself with extra firepower through transcription and study of recordings. This concept then can be applied to the other elements of Melody and Harmony in the same context. Melody ought to be easy, Harmony is more abstract.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Well said Jake I wouldn't limit it to just Jazz though. Man has been making music since the stone ages and it revolves around rhythm. I can't see a group of cave dwellers huddled around arguing about scales and modes after beating a drum around a campfire. We get caught up in the theory when its really meant to just help us bang our drums. In over thirty years of playing various kinds of music I have run across both players who were well versed in theory and those who were not. Rhythm may have been the bond that linked the best ones. I have learned from all of them. The best thing theory does IMHO is prepare you ear for all scenarios.

    Justin Sandercoe has a wonderful interview with Pat Martino Free Guitar Lessons - MA-000 - Masterclasses with great guitarists Pat shares his thoughts on making music and listening to music.

  12. #11
    Wow, a lot of great feedback here and I appreciate it all. Can't practice every idea all at once, for now I'll be going with
    a) singing a few bars and finding it (thanks derek!)
    b) going back to playing along and copying from records (thanks JimBobWay!) Simple and obvious solutions are actually just what I'm looking for; how can they be so elusive? *slaps forehead*

    Regarding Jake Hanlon's comments - upon reflection, my rhythmic identity is very jaunty and syncopated! Again, the simple approach pointing to the heart of things.

    Finally, my whole family had a good laugh at the mention of Keith Jarrett's vocalizations

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
    With Jon it is very much a gimmick though, same with Benson. This isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing but it's very much a gimmick. There are so many great players that sing what they play many of them it's 'under their breath'. I know that it surprised me when I discovered this when I would be in a lesson, hanging, going to concerts to see some of these cats and watching them sing along.

    As for the Play What you Hear thing.

    My Recommendation for realizing this concept is to go back and break Music into it's 3 fundamental elements.

    Rhythm
    Melody
    Harmony

    Now, when ppl were telling me to "play what I sing" I was baffled by this, it seemed to difficult until I decided to break it down and play what I heard in each different element of Music starting with Rhythm.

    IMO and many other ppl's opinion Rhythm is what makes Jazz what it is far more then any of the other two concepts, however is most often the most difficult to acquire and often times never taught in a structured way. Rhythm is that element that makes everything come together in Jazz because lets face it, there are only 12 notes and only so many combinations melodically and harmonically while Rhythm remains an unlimited possibility. Thus coming into terms with what you actually hear Rhythmically.

    Example, Pat Martino certainly hears things in long running 8th notes (or 16th notes pending tempos) while Miles Davis certainly heard things in simpiler rhythmic cells, Bird hear things in a very rapid fire context, Joe Henderson's rhythmic Concept was far more loose in the bar.

    Jack Dejonnet can probably hear 32 bars as 1 rhythmic entity (hence how he looses people in trading on live recordings) same with Tony Williams but Philly Joe Jones or Jimmy Cobb far more quarternote based rhythmic groove.

    Practing what you hear in a Rhythmic sense is basically just coming to terms with your own rhythmic identiy and arming yourself with extra firepower through transcription and study of recordings. This concept then can be applied to the other elements of Melody and Harmony in the same context. Melody ought to be easy, Harmony is more abstract.
    As one of the Profs here, I always enjoy your posts and learn a bunch. However, I am going to respond to the use of the word gimmick, with regard to the scatting along with the playing that Pizz and Benson do.

    I would suggest it is no more a gimmick than their guitar soloing. I think it links head and hands. Gimmick to me suggests props or costumes, perhaps the use of circus animals on stage. I think the singing/playing of lines is a natural result of being a player/singer.

    On an instructional vid I have of Herb Ellis, he strongly suggests doing this to help you free up your playing, and get out what is inside of you. However, when they mic him vocalizing while playing, it sounds something like pigs mating. Kinda like Keith Jarrett. However, I am not sure those guys could stop doing it if they wanted. I know Keith's fans would probably prefer it. Did I misunderstand what you meant by gimmick?

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    The SInging what one Plays is not the gimmick. And again, as I said this isn't a negative thing. But when you mic yourself up it becomes part of the show just imo. I don't have a problem with them doing it at all, I think it's great. But mic'ing yourself up as a performance practice is different then the practicality of learning to do it as a concept is all I was stating.

    Keith Jarret or Jim Hall all hum or mumble their lines but don't mic themselves doing it. Oscar did it as well. I think and know a lot of great players do. When you mic it, it becomes part of the show.

    I'll also state this one thing that I love about Pizz and Benson doing it. Because the guitar is not a naturally articualte instrument their scat lines along w/ guitar lines adds a welcome dimention of articulation to their lines, which I like.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
    The SInging what one Plays is not the gimmick. And again, as I said this isn't a negative thing. But when you mic yourself up it becomes part of the show just imo. I don't have a problem with them doing it at all, I think it's great. But mic'ing yourself up as a performance practice is different then the practicality of learning to do it as a concept is all I was stating.

    Keith Jarret or Jim Hall all hum or mumble their lines but don't mic themselves doing it. Oscar did it as well. I think and know a lot of great players do. When you mic it, it becomes part of the show.

    I'll also state this one thing that I love about Pizz and Benson doing it. Because the guitar is not a naturally articualte instrument their scat lines along w/ guitar lines adds a welcome dimention of articulation to their lines, which I like.
    Okay, thanks for the clarification.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    I am fairly certian that some famous musician once said something along the lines of 'you can't be inventing new melodies 100% of the time', which means that you have to have some sort of stock licks that you can fall back on.

    Someone once told me that improv is (obviously), spontanious composition, and you should strive to achieve technical facility that can accomodate anything you can hear in your head. Imposible, especially if you hear a 50 piece string orchestra. Which is why I feel that musicians in general get a bad rap for being lazy. If the layperson had any idea how much work it takes to become a mediocore musician, and the amount of work that it takes to stay that way, they would pay us more.

    How you begin to hear things in your head... I have no clue. Its kind of like defining swing (not the genre) or life. You know what it is, you know what it looks or sounds like but you can't definitivly describe it.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SMcS
    I've been practicing and trying to wrap my head around many of the concepts re: jazz playing for a couple years now. Never posted on this site before, mostly because a simple forum search has always answered my questions. Now I'm on something that I can't describe in a few simple keywords. . . sorry about the long explanation, hope this makes sense. . .

    I've read the opinion that at a certain point, it's best to forget about theory, what scale for what chord, etc., and simply "play what you hear." Okay, wanting the ability to do just that is a huge reason why I undertook studying this music in the first place (that and just loving the sound.) It dawned on me I had lost sight of that goal in the process of absorbing a huge amount of information.

    So, how does one actually practice such a thing, and improve?

    I can sure hear what I want to play in my head, even sing it out while I play the harmony or over records and hear it make musical sense. I just can't get the d*** notes under my fingers quick enough, and make lots of mistakes when I try!

    So far I've been trying to just go off melodies alone, adding little embellishments as they come to me. Trying to think about the music like Louis Armstrong might have

    Also going through tunes one measure at a time, thinking about what I'd want to play and trying to transcribe those licks like I would off a record.

    Both seem to be moving me towards where I want to be at. . . very slowly.

    Any feedback is appreciated. In time I'd love to give back for the great advice and know-how the players on this forum have been giving freely.
    Yea, until they invent a time machine, just pay your dues.

    -TD

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Decapriology1
    Yea, until they invent a time machine, just pay your dues.

    -TD
    "“Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause.”
    - Victor Hugo

    But I do see your point. In fact to reinforce that point, here's a Turkish proverb I turned up while verifying the source for the previous quote:

    "Patience is bitter, but it bears sweet fruit."

    I'll take that to heart.

  19. #18
    Another player who vocalises along with what he plays is Kurt Rosenwinkel.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Joe Diorio also sings (more like humming) while he is improvising.

    wiz

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobWay
    Before I knew theory, I learned from records by ear. I would listen and copy solos from the greats - not just guitarists, but folks like Louis - he was really one of the first recorded 'jazz soloists' after all!
    That's the key.
    As counter-intuitive as it may sound, playing what you hear is essentially a memory skill at two different levels: aural-memory and physical/geographic memory of your instrument. It's about associating sounds or sequences thereof with your motions.
    When you "play what you hear" you're using a process that has three main steps:
    1) You "hear" (physically or mentally), that is you gather an information;
    2) Your brain processes the information: translates it into intervals, chords, metrics and so on, that's where aural memory is paramount;
    3) Your brain transmits the processed information to your body so you play it.

    Learning the masters' solos by ear is IMO the greatest way (and possibly the only one) to develop proficiency for that specific process, as far as it combines ear-training and practicing the motions in the same time. You must be aiming at being able to play the whole tune by heart.
    Last edited by Lambosoa; 02-10-2010 at 03:15 AM.

  22. #21
    TommyD Guest
    Mimi Fox sings when she solos.
    I love what John Pizz does. He must have worked like hell to get that down. Just making the decision as to what verbalization to use is a pain; do you use 'da', 'ba', 'da-ba', 'la-la-la'? What?
    Herb Ellis (RIP) recommended it. K. Jarrett would probably stop if he could.
    When I do it, crazily enough, it's out of key! Go figure!
    Very likely, if we did it into a mike so it could be heard, we'd sing on key.

    Pavarotti (not)

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Some interesting post and I agree with most, personal choices with the rest. Someone mentioned Benson and what I remember from his pre-pop star periods was that his solos were like endless melodies, the tempo didn't seem to matter. Or the complexities of the harmony. I don't think he had all the theoretical aspects down, but he had his style down, The music was not that complicated , but you could hear tonic go to sub-dom., dom. go to tonic etc... if you wanted to, his melodies, ( solos) had tension and resolution and usually great beauty and balance. Obviously not all the time. I think you are able to sing quarter notes at some point, and then those quarter notes become 8th notes etc... and eventually you have an entire collection of phrases that you think of as easily as that first collection of quarter notes. That's how I play at this point of my playing career... and I continually work on hearing new material. I'm able to look at charts and hear the music pretty easily in my head and I'm of at best average talent. I have spent tons of time teaching my ears what those notes on music paper sound like and theoretically what they mean, and an equal amount of time on instruments. I don't think you need all the info. to hear, but the more the better.... Reg

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    I recommend you to do the following:

    1. Develop your ear (for instance practice aural skills separately 3-4 per week for 20 min). Doing this will allow you hear intervals, scales, chords, triads and more before you play them. This brings me to the next component....

    2. Nourish your technique. As your ear gets better, you'll start to "hear" things to play, and then you don't want limited technique. Your hands need to be able to do what you want them to do.

    3. Study music theory. If components 1+2 are in place you're able to play what you hear. But understanding music theory you'll gain massive benefits:
    - knowing how chords are grouped together in keys, how scales work, how chords are built, how progressions (or retrogressions) work, and stuff like that narrows down your "search" for notes and things to play. You will immediately understand what you hear, recognize it and be able to play it.

    Practice components 1-3 isolated every week. I recommend to devote daily practice time for technique, and you can alternate aural skills and theory every other day.

    Last but not least.... don't wait 'till you can sing a scale or play a difficult at a certain speed or whatever.... start NOW by implementing these isolated skills together! How do I do that you might ask? Practice improvising.... Get some backing tracks, or record your own, play with others etc.... just start improvising. Once every month record yourself improvising and listen back to previous recordings every month. Believe me, you'll see your progress much better this way.

  25. #24
    I've got another option that my friend reccomended to me. My friend's become a killer jazz guitarist in just about 3 years of playing.

    What he would do is sit there and play the changes of a song over and over while singing along to the changes. Once he would find a good idea he would try to play it and base his solos off that. He thinks of this more structurally though, than just individual lines. You want your entire solo to tell a story ideally. The ideas should correlate with one another, especially rhythmically. Before you really are able to play what you hear, you might want to think about the concepts of your solos as a whole and then perhaps breaking down individual ideas will come easier. This is something I need to work on as well and I appreciate all the good responses in this thread.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Herb Ellis did that, and advocated it. He spent a lot of time playing with Oscar Peterson; I wonder what it would be like to hear *two* guys doing that....
    Another value of 'singing what you play' is that it gives your lines a 'sung' quality. (You have to pause for breath, for example, and we naturally *sing* dynamically, so to the extent that informs our playing...)