The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I can’t play countdown lol. Giant Steps is one thing (that I almost never play on gigs) but Countdown is IMO for people who really want to master the Trane changes thing to an unusually high level. Just the tempo alone.

    I see where the teacher is coming from as it’s a sub for Tune Up. But then I haven’t played Tune Up for like a decade.

    Jazz education tunes are their own separate world.
    I agree that Countdown is the Rosetta Stone to decipher Trane's music, at least up to the Giant Steps album. As I said previously, we could spend the entire semester on this. Good candidate for chord melody, though,

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  3. #27

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    I think looking at the root movements of just the first 4 bars at the piano for an hour might be very helpful. It's a V I pattern simply modulating down by a 3rd like the "Have You Met Miss Jones" bridge. It can be memorized slowly as a routine, so that it's no longer difficult. The second and third lines do the exact same thing. Line four is like Tune Up .

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I think looking at the root movements of just the first 4 bars at the piano for an hour might be very helpful. It's a V I pattern simply modulating down by a 3rd like the "Have You Met Miss Jones" bridge. It can be memorized slowly as a routine, so that it's no longer difficult. The second and third lines do the exact same thing. Line four is like Tune Up .
    Yes, understood. I've spent some time learning Miss Jones as the foundation for Countdown. I might be able to play the tune at 20 bpm.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    I agree that Countdown is the Rosetta Stone to decipher Trane's music, at least up to the Giant Steps album. As I said previously, we could spend the entire semester on this. Good candidate for chord melody, though,
    I didn’t say that. Trane changes are one technical aspect of Tranes music.

  6. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I didn’t say that. Trane changes are one technical aspect of Tranes music.
    Sorry. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

  7. #31

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    Sorry for being a grump. Coltrane is very special to me. I see him as more than a Sax player who played interesting notes.... although he was certainly that.

    the fact that people focus on stuff like Trane changes, while cool and impressive neglects so many things I find more interesting about his music.

    It’s like turning his music into a crossword puzzle sometimes the way it’s taught....

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sorry for being a grump. Coltrane is very special to me. I see him as more than a Sax player who played interesting notes.... although he was certainly that.

    the fact that people focus on stuff like Trane changes, while cool and impressive neglects so many things I find more interesting about his music.

    It’s like turning his music into a crossword puzzle sometimes the way it’s taught....
    No offense taken, of course. I think Trane is special to all of us. BTW, I went to the Saint John Coltrane Church when I was in San Francisco. I agree that music taught in an academic setting can be, well, pedantic. What infuses life into music can't be found in a book – it's the intangibles, like tone, vibe, blusiness and swing, among others. To me, that's the difference between playing it "correctly" and playing it "right." Perhaps an apt metaphor for my aspirations is that while I could place no one higher in the pantheon than Trane, I could listen to Dexter Gordon all day. That said, just to have an inkling about "Trane changes" is a big deal to me, although it's unlikely I'll ever be able to apply them. In closing, much appreciation for your many suggestions, recommendations and observations on this thread and previously.

  9. #33

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    Saint John Coltrane Church
    WHAT? Tell me I'm dreaming.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    WHAT? Tell me I'm dreaming.
    Oh no this is a thing.

  11. #35

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    You're right, I've looked it up, and I'm not saying a word.

  12. #36

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    I don't think there's a good way to 'simplify' Countdown, beyond just playing Tune Up. Which is why I don't think Countdown is really going to to anyone any good in an intermediate level jazz improv course. Can you get together with the other folks in class without the instructor, and work on some simpler tunes, concentrating on dynamics, rhythmic density, phrase lengths, articulation, interaction, trading 8s & 4s, stop time, intros endings, all useful and practical things to go over in a combo setting, and let Countdown patterns be an individual at-your-own-pace practice goal, until they come out naturally in group playing situations? Best wishes for your music!

    PK

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by paulkogut
    I don't think there's a good way to 'simplify' Countdown, beyond just playing Tune Up. Which is why I don't think Countdown is really going to to anyone any good in an intermediate level jazz improv course. Can you get together with the other folks in class without the instructor, and work on some simpler tunes, concentrating on dynamics, rhythmic density, phrase lengths, articulation, interaction, trading 8s & 4s, stop time, intros endings, all useful and practical things to go over in a combo setting, and let Countdown patterns be an individual at-your-own-pace practice goal, until they come out naturally in group playing situations? Best wishes for your music!

    PK
    Thank you for your thoughtful perspective. I couldn't have said it better!

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You're right, I've looked it up, and I'm not saying a word.
    OK, I'll do it. Here's the link:

    Coltrane Church

    Who knew?

  15. #39

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    Pianist Michael Wolfe has a great YouTube on Giant Steps concepts. I especially like his Big V shortcut, where he plays a dominant altered scale over the first few chords leading to the I of the new key change. For example, play Bbalt over the beginning chords finally resolving to Ebmaj7, continue the same over the next sequence.

  16. #40

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    Yes a have a vid demoing this idea more generally



    So countdown would go from

    Em F7 | Bb Db7 | Gbmaj7 A7 | D

    to

    Em | Em7b5 | A7alt | D

    by this logic. Which is basically Tune Up.

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yes a have a vid demoing this idea more generally



    So countdown would go from

    Em F7 | Bb Db7 | Gbmaj7 A7 | D

    to

    Em | Em7b5 | A7alt | D

    by this logic. Which is basically Tune Up.
    Man, I wish you were teaching the class. I think I kinda sorta get it, not necessarily to the level that I could explain it. I'll experiment.

  18. #42

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    Em | Em7b5 | A7alt | D

    Which means you're going up in m3rds: Em - Gm - Bbm - (D).

    Mind you, I don't know if any of this actually simplifies the playing of it because it's so fast.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Em | Em7b5 | A7alt | D

    Which means you're going up in m3rds: Em - Gm - Bbm - (D).

    Mind you, I don't know if any of this actually simplifies the playing of it because it's so fast.
    I think it would be ok, to play ii-V-I you probably have more chops. And it’s easier to improvise.

    What your talking about is more patternsy to my mind.

    Really the Coltrane thing comes down to patterns. You can then apply those patterns on simpler progs or vamps, which is what Trane did.

    But pattern based playing... well it can be a bit relentless so it’s good to have different tools.