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  1. #1

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    I have difficulty managing passages with two beats per chord, this being the latest of many. It's not that I don't understand their relationship, rather that I can't seem to do anything "musical" with them. As close as I can come is to spell the chords, i.e. F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F which isn't very imaginative. (The ensuing iii-vi-ii-V7 isn't too problematic for me.) I'd appreciate any guidance or insights that might help me play with more melodic continuity. Thanks!

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    I have difficulty managing passages with two beats per chord, this being the latest of many. It's not that I don't understand their relationship, rather that I can't seem to do anything "musical" with them. As close as I can come is to spell the chords, i.e. F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F which isn't very imaginative. (The ensuing iii-vi-ii-V7 isn't too problematic for me.) I'd appreciate any guidance or insights that might help me play with more melodic continuity. Thanks!
    I know the feeling!

    In this tune, I solo in the key (F) until I got that Bbm chord and whack out the Db. It’s not big. It’s not clever.

    But it works and it sounds good.

    Outlining chords 1-2-3-5 is another time-honoured strategy.

    Sometimes you can’t really improvise freely. There are often sections of a tune where you do a thing. It’s absolutely fine. Everyone does it.

  4. #3

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    Also it all belongs to F maj6-dim if you check any Barry Harris stuff out.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I know the feeling!

    In this tune, I solo in the key (F) until I got that Bbm chord and whack out the Db. It’s not big. It’s not clever.

    But it works and it sounds good.

    Outlining chords 1-2-3-5 is another time-honoured strategy.

    Sometimes you can’t really improvise freely. There are often sections of a tune where you do a thing. It’s absolutely fine. Everyone does it.
    Thanks for the recommendation. Adding the 2 makes it a little more linear, which is what I'm after. How do you feel about substituting Eb9 for Bbmi6? Not completely kosher I realize. Any benefit to that or am I just making life more difficult?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F
    I assume you're playing 'notes' rather than chord melody.

    Well, the second chord isn't 'A', it's either Am7b5/D7b9 or F#o. I don't know which one you're using.

    It's in F. The third bar goes into Gm7 so you need a G harmonic minor run over the Am7b5-D7b9. One of the easiest ways is to outline a Cm6 chord over it. But once you're into the Gm7 again you're back in F. Incidentally, outlining a Bbm6 chord over the C7 gives a nice sound into the tonic F.

    An awkward one might be the Dm7b5 in bar 6. But the next chord's a G7 so you could carry on playing F melodic minor over both those. Then you're back in F again.

    The Cm7/F7 - BbM7 (or Bb6) is straightforward and can be played as one line. The next chord is either Eb7 or Bbm6. I'd be tempted to treat it as a Bbm6 and just hit the Db note to emphasise the minor change.

    I don't know where you get the Db from in your list.

    Don't forget it's not really about 'scales' as such although they're a good guide to what notes you play. Any chord can be embellished with passing notes.

    Try it slowly till you know where you are with it and then speed up if necessary. Keep to the spirit and mood of the song, that'll help with your improvisation.
    Last edited by ragman1; 08-09-2019 at 01:03 PM.

  7. #6

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    Here's a quick noodle over it with the ideas as above. It's not bebop :-)


  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I assume you're playing 'notes' rather than chord melody.

    Well, the second chord isn't 'A', it's either Am7b5/D7b9 or F#o. I don't know which one you're using.

    It's in F. The third bar goes into Gm7 so you need a G harmonic minor run. One of the easiest ways is to outline a Cm6 chord over the Am7b5-D7b9. But once you're into the Gm7 again you're back in F. Incidentally, outlining a Bbm6 chord over the C7 gives a nice sound into the tonic F.

    An awkward one might be the Dm7b5 in bar 6. But the next chord's a G7 so you could carry on playing F melodic minor over both those. Then you're back in F again.

    The Cm7/F7 - BbM7 (or Bb6) is straightforward and can be played as one line. The next chord is either Eb7 or Bbm6. I'd be tempted to treat it as a Bbm6 and just hit the Db note to emphasise the minor change.

    I don't know where you get the Db from in your list.

    Don't forget it's not really about 'scales' as such although they're a good guide to what notes you play. Any chord can be embellished with passing notes.

    Try it slowly till you know where you are with it and then speed up if necessary. Keep to the spirit and mood of the song, that'll help with your improvisation.
    I think we may be referencing different sections of the tune. I intended to reference the section towards the end where the chords change every two beats: Fmaj6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    Thanks for the recommendation. Adding the 2 makes it a little more linear, which is what I'm after. How do you feel about substituting Eb9 for Bbmi6? Not completely kosher I realize. Any benefit to that or am I just making life more difficult?
    Nothing not wrong about that... Some charts have Eb9. The two chords are interchangeable, in this context at least.

    If you have things to play Eb9, great. But it's two beats of that chord. How many notes do you want to play? Db is kind of the important note.

    I'd be tempted to play a Bbm triad actually. Bit of a Jim Hall move.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    the section towards the end where the chords change every two beats: Fmaj6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6.
    It's all F. The F-Gm-Am-Dm stuff is all F, it's a recognised sub. Which you'll never forget now :-)

    If you hit the Bbm6 just don't forget the Db! Listen to what I did, it's just noodling over F. To be honest, that's one of the easiest bits. After that it's the ii-V into F again.

  11. #10

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    TBH if you are asking these questions, it's much more helpful to listen to your favourite players handle that bit on A Foggy Day and copy what they do. It's only a couple of bars.

    These players are probably better at jazz than us.

  12. #11

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    You could make a great effort to go up F, then Gm, then Am, then etc etc, but I don't think it's worth it. Takes away the flow.

    Here's not a bad version. Listen to how they hit the Db of the Bbm6 and then noodle over the F-Gm-Am bit (I hadn't heard any recorded versions before I did mine!)


  13. #12

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    Here's a more boppy version. He just repeats a chromatic lick over it (at 1.25). Notes: F Ab A Bb B C (or should that be Cb?)


  14. #13

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    I mean that is the other option. Ignore the Bbm. It is but a passing chord.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I mean that is the other option. Ignore the Bbm. It is but a passing chord.
    Hey, you just made my life easier!

  16. #15

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    Edit: When I picked up the guitar and tried it, I remembered that this particular section sounds like a nice reharm of Fmaj7 E7 A7 D7, or Fmaj E7 Eb7 D7. Think "Ain't She Sweet". Or it could be Bm7b5 E7, Am7b5 D7. Or, consider that Bbm6 is a sub, in effect, for D7#9.

    But, my suggestion is to strum the chords and scat sing. When you get a line you like, put it on the guitar.

    If you can't scat sing anything you like, then listen to lots of versions on youtube. I'd suggest focusing, at first, on players who don't play that many notes. Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond come to mind. Find some passages you like, sing them and then put them on the guitar.

    This is generally my suggestion when you already know enough theory to avoid clams but you're struggling to play something musically valid.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-09-2019 at 04:55 PM.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    It's all F until the Bbm. What you play over the Bbm will depend on whatever came before it. The most important movement is from D to Db - Christian mentioned that. And, then you have to make some other choices, E vs Eb, G vs Gb, A vs Ab.

    But, my suggestion is to strum the chords and scat sing. When you get a line you like, put it on the guitar.

    If you can't scat sing anything you like, then listen to lots of versions on youtube. I'd suggest focusing, at first, on players who don't play that many notes. Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond come to mind. Find some passages you like, sing them and then put them on the guitar.

    This is generally my suggestion when you already know enough theory to avoid clams but you're struggling to play something musically valid.
    One of the challenges I face is that I know what I want to play but my execution is slow and my fingers are short. So I'm always looking for areas on the fretboard that are more conducive to playing what I want to do cleanly. Often, though, that leads me to the E strings, which are either a little muddy or thin. The playalong track I'm using is 150bpm, a nice swinging tempo. I can jam out quite nicely (at least to my ears) on everything but the sequence in question. I've set up a loop at a slower tempo to bank a few ideas, but the wheels come off the wagon when I play it at tempo. No substitute for hard work, I suppose. BTW, I could listen to Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond all day!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    One of the challenges I face is that I know what I want to play but my execution is slow and my fingers are short. So I'm always looking for areas on the fretboard that are more conducive to playing what I want to do cleanly. Often, though, that leads me to the E strings, which are either a little muddy or thin. The playalong track I'm using is 150bpm, a nice swinging tempo. I can jam out quite nicely (at least to my ears) on everything but the sequence in question. I've set up a loop at a slower tempo to bank a few ideas, but the wheels come off the wagon when I play it at tempo. No substitute for hard work, I suppose. BTW, I could listen to Hank Mobley and Paul Desmond all day!
    This makes it sound more like a technique issue. That's a different discussion. It requires identifying individual roadblocks in your technique and finding workable solutions. Or, alternatively, it may be that what you want to play is simply really difficult. Post a video? That might help others figure out what to suggest.

    Typically, short fingers isn't the problem with playing single note lines. In fact, for many people, the problem is the right hand, not the left.

    I don't understand how you're led to the E strings.

    Are you saying the problem with this sequence is that it's only 2 beats per chord? If that's the issue, play Fmajor scale ideas over F Gm Am. Don't even think about the chord changes. Then, play the same thing but flatten the D and E. There is an infinite number of possibilities, but that's a good one to start with. When that gets comfortable try adjusting a note here and there to make the chord changes more obvious in your lead line.

  19. #18

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    I've always done it like in The Standards Real Book by Chuck Sher:

    | Fmaj7/C G-7/C | Fmaj7/C G-7/C | Fmaj7/C D-7 | G-7 C7 | F | G-7 C7 ||
    Last edited by rintincop; 08-09-2019 at 04:34 PM.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    You could make a great effort to go up F, then Gm, then Am, then etc etc, but I don't think it's worth it. Takes away the flow.

    Here's not a bad version. Listen to how they hit the Db of the Bbm6 and then noodle over the F-Gm-Am bit (I hadn't heard any recorded versions before I did mine!)
    This is actually very helpful, because the harmonies seem closer to swing – "prebop" if you will. So it gives me a clearer sense of the foundation for what came afterwards. Reminded me of Johnny Hodges and Coleman Hawkins. Kind of a Teddy Wilson vibe on piano too.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    This makes it sound more like a technique issue. That's a different discussion. It requires identifying individual roadblocks in your technique and finding workable solutions. Or, alternatively, it may be that what you want to play is simply really difficult. Post a video? That might help others figure out what to suggest.

    Typically, short fingers isn't the problem with playing single note lines. In fact, for many people, the problem is the right hand, not the left.

    I don't understand how you're led to the E strings.

    Are you saying the problem with this sequence is that it's only 2 beats per chord? If that's the issue, play Fmajor scale ideas over F Gm Am. Don't even think about the chord changes. Then, play the same thing but flatten the D and E. There is an infinite number of possibilities, but that's a good one to start with. When that gets comfortable try adjusting a note here and there to make the chord changes more obvious in your lead line.
    My technique's not the smoothest, not the worst either. That said, clean execution is the goal. Whether I achieve it or not is, as you say, a different discussion. What I want to play, and, in fact, can play is basic bop with typical chromatic elements – i.e. b5 b9 descending runs, note enclosures etc. How I'm led to the E strings is that the notes I want to play are easier to access there at times. I think your recommendation to consider the first three chords as belonging to F major is easy to grasp. I think Christian's suggestion to spell the chords 1 2 3 5 is a good starting point for me. A little more linear than just playing the arpeggios. So, like you say, once I get more comfortable with the inside harmonies I can alter a note here and there to create a little more flavor.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Edit: When I picked up the guitar and tried it, I remembered that this particular section sounds like a nice reharm of Fmaj7 E7 A7 D7, or Fmaj E7 Eb7 D7. Think "Ain't She Sweet". Or it could be Bm7b5 E7, Am7b5 D7. Or, consider that Bbm6 is a sub, in effect, for D7#9.
    Yes, that's it. I intuitively feel a circle of 4ths thing going on but don't have the conceptual framework to connect the dots as you have.

  23. #22

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    I don’t think I’ve ever heard a connection between D7 and Bbm6. I’ll have to have a listen when I get a chance.

    Bbm6 usually returns to F in this key, (or related chords like Dm) whereas D7 would go to Gm7 or G7, so from a functional place i would think them very different .... but I’ll give it a try!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I don’t think I’ve ever heard a connection between D7 and Bbm6. I’ll have to have a listen when I get a chance.

    Bbm6 usually returns to F in this key, (or related chords like Dm) whereas D7 would go to Gm7 or G7, so from a functional place i would think them very different .... but I’ll give it a try!
    me neither ....
    Bbm6 and Eb7 , then ok

  25. #24

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    I think it was D7#9 as a sub for F6 before Gm7. Seems to work, could be wrong.


  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I think it was D7#9 as a sub for F6 before Gm7. Seems to work, could be wrong.

    Oh yeah that’s a thing.

  27. #26

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    Try FMaj7 Gmin7 Amin7 Bbmin6
    on the upper four strings with the 3rd of each chord on top.

    You can add some scale tones or chromatic approaches in the top voice so it move in quarter notes over half note chords.

    The first three chords are simply a harmonized F major scale, which is why they aren’t terribly interesting. You could try adding dim7 chords after each of the first two chords, which would result in a chromatic walking bass line from F to Bb (quarter notes).

    The Bbmin6 is the “money chord” (the most interesting one) since it’s not in the harmonized Fmaj scale. Its tension demands resolution, driving the harmony forward. Come up with a hip voicing for that chord and make sure you stick it at the right time and all will be good.

    That leads me to another idea... After deciding how you want to voice the Bbmin6, work backwards to come up with voicings for the preceding chords that lead to it. It’s hard to think backwards on the bandstand, but a good thing to work on in the woodshed.

    You also have the option of skipping the Gmin7 and Amin7 chords and just play a little fill melody between the F and Bbm chords to tie them together.

    Another idea: Substitute Bbmaj7 (the IV chord) for Gmin7 (the ii chord). They are both subdominants in the harmonized F scale, so are nearly interchangeable. That voicing seems more interesting to me than walking up the harmonized scale. And it provides more of an “in your face” jarring contrast when the Bbmin6 “money chord” follows soon after.
    Last edited by KirkP; 08-10-2019 at 01:56 PM.

  28. #27

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    Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 Bbm6

    vs

    Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 D7#9.

    I think the first sounds better and is, of course, correct. But, the second works too.
    In fact, the second one seemed more like what you might expect to see in the vanilla book.

    So I checked and found this. Apparently, there's vanilla and then there's really vanilla.

    No Bbm6.


    FOGGY DAY (A)

    Key of F 4/4


    [ F | Ab7 | Gm7 | C7 |

    | F | Db7 | G7 | C7 |

    | F | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Bbm |

    | F | D7 | G7 | C7 |

    || F | Ab7 | Gm7 | C7 |

    | F | Db7 | G7 | C7 |

    | F | F7 | Bb | Bbm |

    | F Gm7 | Am7 Gm7 | F G7 | Gm7 C7 |

    | F | F |

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 Bbm6

    vs

    Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 D7#9.

    I think the first sounds better and is, of course, correct. But, the second works too.
    In fact, the second one seemed more like what you might expect to see in the vanilla book.

    So I checked and found this. Apparently, there's vanilla and then there's really vanilla.

    No Bbm6.


    FOGGY DAY (A)

    Key of F 4/4


    [ F | Ab7 | Gm7 | C7 |

    | F | Db7 | G7 | C7 |

    | F | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Bbm |

    | F | D7 | G7 | C7 |

    || F | Ab7 | Gm7 | C7 |

    | F | Db7 | G7 | C7 |

    | F | F7 | Bb | Bbm |

    | F Gm7 | Am7 Gm7 | F G7 | Gm7 C7 |

    | F | F |
    That seems about what I remember actually.

    The Bbm6/Gm7 thing - it’s a colour change. Really it’s Gm7 as opposed to Gm7b5.

    Again I tend to understand this stuff from the POV of the Barry Harris major6-dim scale. There are basic patterns that look exactly like the OPs version of the changes, and you can see similar things crop up in tunes like Autumn in New York, Celia by Bud Powell, I’ll probably think of other ones...

    If it was D7#9 then it would need to resolve immediately to F. VI7–>I This is highly unusual.

    I’ll need a while to think of an example from the standards rep where that happens, can’t think of one... only Insenatez?

    I should try and write a tune using it!

    Also 7#9 is not a very common vanilla chord colour in position VI; we would normally choose between m7 and 7 based on the melody. It’s more something that would come up in reharmonisation. (The #9 gets played on the VI7 chord plenty in lines.... but voicing is a different matter)
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-10-2019 at 02:59 PM.

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    Try FMaj7 Gmin7 Amin7 Bbmin6
    on the upper four strings with the 3rd of each chord on top.

    You can add some scale tones or chromatic approaches in the top voice so it move in quarter notes over half note chords.

    The first three chords are simply a harmonized F major scale, which is why they aren’t terribly interesting. You could try adding dim7 chords after each of the first two chords, which would result in a chromatic walking bass line from F to Bb (quarter notes).

    The Bbmin6 is the “money chord” (the most interesting one) since it’s not in the harmonized Fmaj scale. Its tension demands resolution, driving the harmony forward. Come up with a hip voicing for that chord and make sure you stick it at the right time and all will be good.

    That leads me to another idea... After deciding how you want to voice the Bbmin6, work backwards to come up with voicings for the preceding chords that lead to it. It’s hard to think backwards on the bandstand, but a good thing to work on in the woodshed.

    You also have the option of skipping the Gmin7 and Amin7 chords and just play a little fill melody between the F and Bbm chords to tie them together.

    Another idea: Substitute Bbmaj7 (the IV chord) for Gmin7 (the ii chord). They are both subdominants in the harmonized F scale, so are nearly interchangeable. That voicing seems more interesting to me than walking up the harmonized scale. And it provides more of an “in your face” jarring contrast when the Bbmin6 “money chord” follows soon after.
    Great ideas and very clearly presented. Thanks!

  31. #30

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    Obviously - having just played it through you could just do

    | F Gm7 | Am7 D7b13 | G7 | C7 | F

    Which would work fine - great even - as a soloing option if you where heavily targeting the last F.

    However as an accompaniment, though it doesn’t have any nasty clashes with the melody, it might sound a bit like you don’t really know the tune.

    You have a slight problem with the D7 as there is the note G in the melody at that point. Doesn’t resolve by step as it goes to Bb. Might be able to get away with it. Bbm6/Eb7 fits perfectly as does Gm7 obviously.

    I like:

    | F Gm7 | Am7 Bbm6 | Am7 Ab13 | Gm7 C7 | F
    Or
    | F Gm7 | Am7 Bbm6 | Am7 Abo7 | Gm C7 | F

    You also have the F on Am7 thing, so that’s probably really an inverted F chord - F/A, but tbh you see that a lot.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-10-2019 at 03:41 PM.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    So I checked and found this. Apparently, there's vanilla and then there's really vanilla.

    No Bbm6.
    Adding a 6 to a minor triad just adds some color and helps cue the ear to where the harmony is headed. When I’m creating my own vanilla charts I usually omit it from the chart, but play it on the bandstand.

    Also, as I think you mentioned earlier Eb9 is often a good sub for Bbm6. After all, the 11th of Bb is Eb, and the other notes are common to both chords. I love working through this stuff.

  33. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    Also, as I think you mentioned earlier Eb9 is often a good sub for Bbm6. After all, the 11th of Bb is Eb, and the other notes are common to both chords. I love working through this stuff.
    Hey, wait a minute! That was me, the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    How do you feel about substituting Eb9 for Bbmi6? Not completely kosher I realize. Any benefit to that or am I just making life more difficult?

  34. #33

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    Sorry, I should have doubled checked the thread. I was thinking he was the OP.
    A Foggy Day – Need help with F6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6 passage

  35. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
    Sorry, I should have doubled checked the thread. I was thinking he was the OP.
    A Foggy Day – Need help with F6 Gmi7 Ami7 Bbmi6 passage
    No worries. Just trying to bank a few points where I can find 'em.

  36. #35
    I don't know if I've got "it" but I've got something. Why can't it just be F major for all the chords in the F scale and Bb melodic minor for Bbmi6 and C7? Seems too easy...

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    I don't know if I've got "it" but I've got something. Why can't it just be F major for all the chords in the F scale and Bb melodic minor for Bbmi6 and C7? Seems too easy...
    Ok

    Why does that seem too easy?

    Why should it be hard?

    It’s only a Gershwin tune, not Giant Steps.

  38. #37

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    [QUOTE=KirkP;971573]Adding a 6 to a minor triad just adds some color and helps cue the ear to where the harmony is headed. When I’m creating my own vanilla charts I usually omit it from the chart, but play it on the bandstand.[\QUOTE]

    I’m not sure if that’s what he meant... there was a Gm7, not a Bbm6. So the difference is a D instead of a Db (as Bbm6 = Gm7b5)

    A touch of modal interchange in the OPs changes

    Also, as I think you mentioned earlier Eb9 is often a good sub for Bbm6. After all, the 11th of Bb is Eb, and the other notes are common to both chords. I love working through this stuff.
    Eb9 is pretty much always a good sub for Bbm6. Depending on context it may change the feeling of the chord a lot. Depends largely whether or not you lean on the 11th/1 (Eb in our example)

    For instance - the best way to play bebop on a modal vamp is to make that sub.... (what Mark Levine calls the minor bebop scale is just that sub)

    This is also the origin of m11th chords in harmonic jazz....

  39. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok

    Why does that seem too easy?

    Why should it be hard?

    It’s only a Gershwin tune, not Giant Steps.
    I first want to express my sincerest thanks and appreciation to you and the many forum members who have been so generous sharing their insight and guidance. You know, it's only recently that I've learned how to comfortably handle a minor ii V7. This is a big deal to me, because I can now manage jazz standards based on a typical 32-bar AABA structure. So while it's only a Gershwin tune to you, it's Giant Steps to me. Again, many thanks!

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    I first want to express my sincerest thanks and appreciation to you and the many forum members who have been so generous sharing their insight and guidance. You know, it's only recently that I've learned how to comfortably handle a minor ii V7. This is a big deal to me, because I can now manage jazz standards based on a typical 32-bar AABA structure. So while it's only a Gershwin tune to you, it's Giant Steps to me. Again, many thanks!
    Of course. I meant, why do you think that what you are doing is ‘too easy’?

    If it works and sounds good, it is good. Music is meant to be fun (so they say)

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    I have difficulty managing passages with two beats per chord, this being the latest of many. It's not that I don't understand their relationship, rather that I can't seem to do anything "musical" with them. As close as I can come is to spell the chords, i.e. F-A-C G-Bb-D A-C-E Bb-Db-F which isn't very imaginative. (The ensuing iii-vi-ii-V7 isn't too problematic for me.) I'd appreciate any guidance or insights that might help me play with more melodic continuity. Thanks!
    Start with a simple line that follows the chords.
    For example, (all half notes):
    A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, E, C.
    Then decorate it ( insert your own rhythm keeping the original 9 notes where they were)
    A, C, Bb, D, C, C, C#, D, F, E, F, Ab, G, Gb, F, E, B, C.
    I will try to demonstrate this with a video.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  42. #41

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    This topic prompted me to noodle around with the tune, so I may as well post it here.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    I don't know if I've got "it" but I've got something. Why can't it just be F major for all the chords in the F scale and Bb melodic minor for Bbmi6 and C7? Seems too easy...
    Bingo! Treat the whole thing as in F major and when you get to the Bbm6 just flatten the 6th degree of the F major scale to address the Db (F Harmonic Major). Another approach would be to find notes that can be utilized across the four chords with possibly a one note switch up like, say, take an A minor 7 arpeggio and work that over the F, Gm, Am... and when you get to the Bbm6 change it to an A7 arpeggio of or an A7#5 sound. That way you don't sound like you are mechanically running the changes and you are getting some interesting colour notes.... Larry Carlton (Mr. 335 to you Christian!) does this all the time.

  44. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo View Post
    When you get to the Bbm6 change it to an A7 arpeggio of or an A7#5 sound. That way you don't sound like you are mechanically running the changes and you are getting some interesting colour notes.... Larry Carlton (Mr. 335 to you Christian!) does this all the time.
    This is a nice perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the A7#5 sound native to Bb melodic minor?

  45. #44

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    A7#5 belongs to both scales. It’s misspelled as the Db becomes a C#.

    I tend to like to flat the E as well as the D if I play the E, so that’s Bb mm. However, there’s often not really time for all of that. Scales are cumbersome. Targeting individual notes is a good idea where the changes are fast.

    Harmonic Major isn’t really a thing melodically in the jazz I’ve checked out. Bearing in mind I am coming from the perspective of language not harmony. I see it more as a harmonic concept (as the name suggests) and tbh I don’t personally use.

    This is because the leap Db to E is almost never heard melodically in scalar lines in this context and I find it hard to make it work.* Some players do think of it this way though - Jonathon Kreisberg for instance.

    I think A+ is a very nice sound on Bbm. Don’t tend to use A7+5 but I haven’t paid any deep attention to Larry so I’m unfamiliar with this sound. Would give a Bbm6addmaj7 sound

    It’s a minor plagal, minor/major interchange very common in tonal music. But trust us to start blathering on about thee million scale options. How about F whole tone? D harmonic minor?

    You could play A7–>Dm on Bbm—>F for instance.

    Then there’s the Barry Harris maj-6 Dim scale

    It’s two beats haha. So arpeggio options are often the best option, but as I say one note is easiest.

    That note - Db/C# is a useful thing. It gives you minor IV but it also looks towards the relative minor and altered dominant (V7b9.)

    (* that aug 2nd leap is heavily managed in bebop lines, as in classical music in the harmonic minor.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2019 at 05:26 AM.

  46. #45

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    Btw for the I going to IVm and back again, No Surprises by Radiohead is a good example.

    Gorgeous melody. Also in F. It avoids the the E or Eb completely as do many melodies in this context, so could be Harmonic Major. This would be a good example of how to use it (although I would probably tend to view at as major/minor interchange rather than all being one scale. Potato po-ta-to.)

    The melody gives a Bbm(maj7) arpeggio on the Bb chord with an added passing Major sixth.

    Radiohead’s good for scales. ‘Just’ gives you diminished whole half.

  47. #46

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    After You’ve Gone is similar as is Stardust iirc. Those tunes all go IV IVm I though.

    Going from expected major seventh to the more complex minor major seven is a wonderfully triste sound. Even Green Day got their head around it. It’s not really a jazz thing per se.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    This is a nice perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the A7#5 sound native to Bb melodic minor?
    That is correct. However, the straight A7 sound is not native to the Bb melodic minor but. of course a more crunchy sound.