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  1. #1

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    (This is a revision to my earlier post, which was in error.) I've been working on minor II V's, paying particular attention to locrian mode over (in this instance) Fmi7b5. (Lots of options for the V chord.) It occurred to me that the Fmi7b5 shape I was using was the same as Db9 without the root. Is there any potential benefit here, or am I just making life more complicated than it needs to be?
    Last edited by buduranus2; 07-16-2019 at 08:20 PM.

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  3. #2

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    The Fm7b5 is like the rootless C#9 and identical to the G#m6. It's similar to the BM6#11 which transitions to Bb7 nicely.

    I'm not sure what your question is.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    the Fmi7b5 shape I was using was the same as B9 without the root.
    I think you are simply mistaken.

  5. #4

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    B9 is B D# F# A C#

    Fm7b5 is F Ab B Eb.

    Db9 is Db F Ab B Eb.

    The m7b5 that is a rootless B9 is Ebm7b5, D# F# A C# (ordinarily you'd spell it with flats, but I wanted to make it clear that it's a rootless B9.

    If you're thinking only about chord names and grips, you may find it helpful to learn all the individual notes in the chords you use.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    I think you are simply mistaken.
    Yes, I am. I meant C#/Db not B. I'll change the OP. My bad.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar View Post
    The Fm7b5 is like the rootless C#9 and identical to the G#m6. It's similar to the BM6#11 which transitions to Bb7 nicely.

    I'm not sure what your question is.
    That was my question. I had it wrong in the OP.

  8. #7

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    Fm7b5 is a rootless Db9. It's also, exactly, Abm6.

    Two names for exactly the same notes and another name for the same notes with an added Db.

    They don't function the same way. So, there's an argument that you should think of them differently.

    For example that's a iim7b5 in the key of Ebm. It's a V7, more or less, in Gb. And, it's a Im6 in Abm. It also can be viewed through other lenses which I won't go through here. But, just thinking about those three, they work differently in a song.

    Knowing the equivalences may give you another way to think about soloing. For example, if you can't figure out what to play on F#m7b5, maybe you'd have an easier time thinking D9 or Am6. That may not quite nail the sound of the song, but it will be closer than playing stuff at random. Not to speak against playing randomly, because, undoubtedly, there is somebody out there making that sound great

  9. #8

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    The others have answered it. I saw your original post after you posted but couldn't get in because of the technical problems. I'm glad you changed B to Db/C#!

    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    am I just making life more complicated than it needs to be?
    No, but chord shapes always need to be put in context.

    If you saw the English word 'bow' all by itself, you'd interpret it as you saw it. But it could be a bow on a stage, the front of a ship, a thing that shoots arrows, a thing used to play a violin, a knot, a kind of neck-tie, maybe the sound of a dog...

    As has been said, this chord is the famous '3 in 1' chord. A m7b5...is a rootless 9...is a m6. Saying it's three chords in one is a simple way of putting it.

    (If we want to complicate it slightly, really we're just talking about a set of notes. What they're 'called' depends largely on their context. I mean, those notes - played xx3444 - could be called a B6 with an F bass. Or other things if inverted.

    But for everyday purposes the x8989x shape is a m7b5 - which is frequently used in blues music as a 9 chord - and the xx3444 shape is a m6. Which is a top-four-strings version of the full Abm6 chord).

    Phew.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    (This is a revision to my earlier post, which was in error.) I've been working on minor II V's, paying particular attention to locrian mode over (in this instance) Fmi7b5. (Lots of options for the V chord.) It occurred to me that the Fmi7b5 shape I was using was the same as Db9 without the root. Is there any potential benefit here, or am I just making life more complicated than it needs to be?
    No. This is a good realisation because it maximises the utility of what you already know.

    How many m7b5 licks do you know? How many dominant? How many voicings? You can use one on the other.

    Bear in mind Fm7b5 also = Abm6

  11. #10
    In diatonic progressions, I find it easier to think and play inversions of m7b5 instead dominant7 when wanting to move around or raise the tension.. when I don't have to give the root of course. It's kinda cheating but whatev. Works.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
    In diatonic progressions, I find it easier to think and play inversions of m7b5 instead dominant7 when wanting to move around or raise the tension.. when I don't have to give the root of course. It's kinda cheating but whatev. Works.
    There’s no cheating in music.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar View Post
    The Fm7b5 is like the rootless C#9 and identical to the G#m6. It's similar to the BM6#11 which transitions to Bb7 nicely.

    I'm not sure what your question is.
    Your enharmony makes my eyes bleed

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There’s no cheating in music.
    It is when I do it (occasionally)

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    As has been said, this chord is the famous '3 in 1' chord. A m7b5...is a rootless 9...is a m6. Saying it's three chords in one is a simple way of putting it.

    (If we want to complicate it slightly, really we're just talking about a set of notes. What they're 'called' depends largely on their context. I mean, those notes - played xx3444 - could be called a B6 with an F bass. Or other things if inverted.

    But for everyday purposes the x8989x shape is a m7b5 - which is frequently used in blues music as a 9 chord - and the xx3444 shape is a m6. Which is a top-four-strings version of the full Abm6 chord).

    Phew.
    OK, great. I thought there might be something going on in this regard. Your explanation gives me some needed clarity and a path forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    No. This is a good realisation because it maximises the utility of what you already know.

    How many m7b5 licks do you know? How many dominant? How many voicings? You can use one on the other.

    Bear in mind Fm7b5 also = Abm6
    As it turns out, I'm relatively comfortable with m7b5. I've made pretty good progress internalizing the sound of locrian mode. I'm striving to incorporate a more intervalic approach rather than linear (scalar.) I think what intrigued me about the Fmi7b5/Db9 connection is that it puts me on more comfortable footing (dominant) which is a little easier for me somehow.
    Last edited by buduranus2; 07-17-2019 at 12:03 PM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    OK, great. I thought there might be something going on in this regard. Your explanation gives me some needed clarity and a path forward.



    As it turns out, I'm relatively comfortable with m7b5. I've made pretty good progress internalizing the sound of locrian mode. I'm striving to incorporate a more intervalic approach rather than linear (scalar.) I think what intrigued me about the Fmi7b5/D9 connection is that it puts me on more comfortable footing (dominant) which is a little easier for me somehow.
    Think it does for most people, but there’s a lot of value knowing you can apply the same shit all over the place.

    The best players aren’t necessarily the ones that know the most, it’s the ones that can apply what they know in the most thorough way.

    Obviously the 7/m6/m7b5 connection also simplified melodic minor use.

    Also you have the tritone sub :-)

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    There’s no cheating in music.
    Use a capo.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    The best players aren’t necessarily the ones that know the most, it’s the ones that can apply what they know in the most thorough way.
    Grant Green

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    OK, great. I thought there might be something going on in this regard. Your explanation gives me some needed clarity and a path forward.
    As it turns out, I'm relatively comfortable with m7b5. I've made pretty good progress internalizing the sound of locrian mode. I'm striving to incorporate a more intervalic approach rather than linear (scalar.) I think what intrigued me about the Fmi7b5/D9 connection is that it puts me on more comfortable footing (dominant) which is a little easier for me somehow.
    I pleased you're getting the m7b5 sound together ...
    I never have got that sound myself ....

    However Fmin7b5 noes not sub for D9 !!! as you said above

    (Its should be Db9 as I'm sure you know)
    sorry to be a pedant .....

    we make things even more confusing for others here if we aren't careful

  20. #19
    Well if m7b5 is cheating...


    Anyway, a lot of jazz ideas come out of thinking that way. Melodic minor has two half diminished chords in it as well. There's half diminished/Diminished connection from harmonic minor. With apologies to Barry Harris.... :-)

    Anyway, at this point in my life I basically navigate melodic minor and most of its application in various ways using half diminished Voicings as the framework.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    I pleased you're getting the m7b5 sound together ...
    I never have got that sound myself ....

    However Fmin7b5 noes not sub for D9 !!! as you said above

    (Its should be Db9 as I'm sure you know)
    sorry to be a pedant .....

    we make things even more confusing for others here if we aren't careful
    Duly noted and corrected.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    Duly noted and corrected.
    thanks !

  23. #22

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    By the way, that 4-string Abm6 shape is also a rootless G7alt chord. Try this:

    x2323x - x5656x - x8989x - 8x998x

    You're sliding the same shape up a minor 3rd each time and resolving to a M7. Nice :-)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ View Post
    Use a capo.
    I dare you to go to a bluegrass convention and say that.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Well if m7b5 is cheating...


    Anyway, a lot of jazz ideas come out of thinking that way. Melodic minor has two half diminished chords in it as well. There's half diminished/Diminished connection from harmonic minor. With apologies to Barry Harris.... :-)

    Anyway, at this point in my life I basically navigate melodic minor and most of its application in various ways using half diminished Voicings as the framework.
    That makes sense to me... kind of how I do it.

    There’s also two dom9s and two m6s.... so there you go

    Lot of tritones going on in that scale....

    now think about even more tritone and how you can use the whole tone on all three chords.

    I’m sure Barry would say why not use the m6-dim which is the melodic minor and harmonic together in one handy scale .

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    By the way, that 4-string Abm6 shape is also a rootless G7alt chord. Try this:

    x2323x - x5656x - x8989x - 8x998x

    You're sliding the same shape up a minor 3rd each time and resolving to a M7. Nice :-)
    Yes, I'll definitely experiment with this. Appreciate you!

  27. #26

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    one way to HEAR the Mi7b5 and the dom9 chord is to isolate them...

    use the mi7b5 as a iimi7b5 in a minor blues progression having it go into a V7alt chord..there are quite a few ways to do this search online for examples and get the sound and function of the chord in your ears

    now using it in a pure diatonic scale function as a viimi7b5 with the locrian flavor is going to sound bland as this scale/mode is not very flexable as it just wants to go to the I chord directly and not through any other path..but some have found ways to add flavor to it...again research online for examples

    same with the dom9th chord use it as a I9 IV9 and V9 in a blues and hear how each chord sounds against scales riffs and runs played against it...lots of examples of this kind of thing online

    and as other have pointed out this chord has other functions as well

    mi6 7b9#5 11b9

    with the study of voice leading and extended harmonic functions basic chords can take on wonderful colors..add walking bass lines and a bit of contrary motion and Bach joins the party..

    enjoy
    play well ...
    wolf

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post
    one way to HEAR the Mi7b5 and the dom9 chord is to isolate them...

    use the mi7b5 as a iimi7b5 in a minor blues progression having it go into a V7alt chord..there are quite a few ways to do this search online for examples and get the sound and function of the chord in your ears

    now using it in a pure diatonic scale function as a viimi7b5 with the locrian flavor is going to sound bland as this scale/mode is not very flexable as it just wants to go to the I chord directly and not through any other path..but some have found ways to add flavor to it...again research online for examples

    same with the dom9th chord use it as a I9 IV9 and V9 in a blues and hear how each chord sounds against scales riffs and runs played against it...lots of examples of this kind of thing online

    and as other have pointed out this chord has other functions as well

    mi6 7b9#5 11b9

    with the study of voice leading and extended harmonic functions basic chords can take on wonderful colors..add walking bass lines and a bit of contrary motion and Bach joins the party..

    enjoy
    The first example you cite, iimi7b5 to V7, is what I'm working on now. It's becoming more intuitive and the locrian sound, though basic to the chord, sounds nice to me. I've also been isolating the chords, for example, Fmi7b5 and Db9 and after a while they sound the same to me, which they are (less the root in Db9.) I don't think I've yet to encounter an example in the simple structures I'm learning (All of Me, A Train, There Will Never Be Another You, Just Friends, etc.) where there's a viimi7b5 to 1, so will remember your perspective when I encounter that. I also very much appreciate you reminding me of voice leading. I could incorporate that aspect more than I have been. I'm afraid that contrary motion is not in the cards for me, but, that said, I feel like I've got more than enough to work with. Thanks for your insights!

  29. #28

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    The nice thing about what you’ve learned is you never have to bother with the m7b5 ever again if you don’t want to.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    The nice thing about what you’ve learned is you never have to bother with the m7b5 ever again if you don’t want to.
    You want to get rid of the melodic minor, now you want to get rid of the m7b5... what are you leaving us with, basically? Serious question!

  31. #30

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    Another good thing to do is to find each inversion along the fretboard of these chords. A good way to do that is to start with a diminished chord on the top 4 strings and sharpen one note a half step to come up with a half diminished. Play the same diminished chord 3 frets higher and sharpen the same note (which is now on a different string and inverted within the chord).

    An example would be to start with F diminished, sharpen the D to a Eb to get a Fmi-5 (or half diminished).

    Of course you could do pretty much that same thing by finding each minor 7th chord on your fretboard and flatten the 5th in each position.

    This will also result in finding other inversions for the corresponding 9th chords and minor 6th chords. Although some inversions just won't sound right!

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    You want to get rid of the melodic minor, now you want to get rid of the m7b5... what are you leaving us with, basically? Serious question!
    I never said I wanted to get rid of the melodic minor. It's more like - yes there is melodic minor, but there is also these other options. The minor key is yours to play with to construct melodies with all the versions of that you like, melodic minor, harmonic minor, dorian, natural minor, m6-dim and so on (bear in mind the b6 is never a stable note against a tonic minor chord regardless of what scale you use.)

    For instance nearest thing in Barry Harris to a melodic minor harmony - the m6-dim scale - is a richer version of MM. All the MM stuff is in there, but there's more too. BH would no doubt question the importance of seven note scales as opposed to eight note. Why 7?

    (And in the other corner Jordan would say 4 notes is enough to be getting on with for starters.... )

    Anyway you lean on that major seventh, you are going to create what modern theorists might term melodic minor harmony. There's quite a few melodic figures like this in bop.

    Anyway, with that in mind, if you can play REALLY well in minor, why would you choose to NOT view the Bm7b5 chord for instance as a Dm chord with a B in the bass?

    Same with the dominant. If you can play cool lines in dominant, why not view that Bm7b5 as a rootless G9?

    And if you have bitchin' vocab on half-dim chords, obviously you use that your Bm7b5 on G9 and Dm... If you got good enough at m7b5, you could just treat all dominant and minor chords as versions of m7b5. I don't know if there's anyone in the world who likes m7b5 chords that much (maybe matt haha) but maybe there is.

    It's just I don't personally have any bitchin' half-dim vocab (and I get the impression a lot of people don't), but luckily, I don't need any. You might have loads, in which case, you can apply it all over the place, isn't that cool?

    This is actually very similar, actually, to what Mark Levine (of all people) says, right?
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-18-2019 at 07:42 AM.

  33. #32

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    As a side bar to this, a lot of people (e..g Adam Rogers) I think use modal language, like play B locrian against G7, or whatever to describe something I just think of in terms of the chords.

    The dom7 itself is a bit of a boring sound, so they might have thought of using Dm6 against G7 - a common move. Barry would say, play a chord (i.e. a four stack of thirds) from the third of the scale of G7, which is probably most obvious on the piano where the scale steps are very clearly laid out.

    And of course, because modern jazz theory doesn't do inversions, we think of Dm6/B as Bm7b5... And that scale as the Locrian instead of playing the G7 scale up from the third. It achieves the same thing. YMMV as to whether the language is more complicated.

    I would tend to prefer less chord types and simpler more familiar sounds and forms - major, minor, dominant.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    It occurred to me that the Fmi7b5 shape I was using was the same as Db9 without the root. Is there any potential benefit here, or am I just making life more complicated than it needs to be?
    No you're making life simpler
    White belt
    My Youtube

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    And of course, because modern jazz theory doesn't do inversions
    This is an interesting point. Try to explain chord substitution to a classical musician, and you get blank stares, and then "oh, you mean an inversion." Every "sub" can also be thought of as a different voicing of the written chord, and what happens on the beats between notated chords can be seen as just ornamentation and passing tones along the way.

    John

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d View Post
    Another good thing to do is to find each inversion along the fretboard of these chords. A good way to do that is to start with a diminished chord on the top 4 strings and sharpen one note a half step to come up with a half diminished. Play the same diminished chord 3 frets higher and sharpen the same note (which is now on a different string and inverted within the chord).

    An example would be to start with F diminished, sharpen the D to a Eb to get a Fmi-5 (or half diminished).

    Of course you could do pretty much that same thing by finding each minor 7th chord on your fretboard and flatten the 5th in each position.

    This will also result in finding other inversions for the corresponding 9th chords and minor 6th chords. Although some inversions just won't sound right!
    This is very helpful. My knowledge of chord inversions is deficient. I've just now tried a couple of examples and a secondary benefit is that it helps clarify exactly which notes are in each chord as opposed to their shapes.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I never said I wanted to get rid of the melodic minor.
    I know, I like to be dramatic :-)

    I read what you said before somewhere that the BH m6 thing had all the minor notes in it. Sounds okay, but I'd want to be very careful where I played the #6 note myself, it can go horribly wrong in the wrong place. The mel m as a soild way of playing alt sounds is good for me. Dorian is no problem, of course. If I have one hesitation it would be the harmonic minor which can sound a bit twee and contrived here and there. I tend to disguise it a bit with blue notes.

    why would you choose to NOT view the Bm7b5 chord for instance as a Dm chord with a B in the bass?
    I do. Apart from the usual maj scale a half-step up, treating the m7b5 as a m6 is good. So is the m6 a 3rd above if you're quick.

    why not view that Bm7b5 as a rootless G9?
    That works too, but the dominant sound would have to fit the context.

    This is actually very similar, actually, to what Mark Levine (of all people) says, right?
    What, treat all m6 and dom chords as m7b5's? Not for me, I don't think, although it would supply an alternative sort of line.

  38. #37

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    There’s no #6 or b7 in Barry’s m6dim scale. Cm6dim = C D Eb F G Ab A B or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 7


    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    I read what you said before somewhere that the BH m6 thing had all the minor notes in it. Sounds okay, but I'd want to be very careful where I played the #6 note myself, it can go horribly wrong in the wrong place..

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I know, I like to be dramatic :-)

    I read what you said before somewhere that the BH m6 thing had all the minor notes in it. Sounds okay, but I'd want to be very careful where I played the #6 note myself, it can go horribly wrong in the wrong place. The mel m as a soild way of playing alt sounds is good for me. Dorian is no problem, of course. If I have one hesitation it would be the harmonic minor which can sound a bit twee and contrived here and there. I tend to disguise it a bit with blue notes.
    Well it's a #5. If we added that colour to say a G7 chord, by using a Dm6-dim, we would get the note A#, which we would see as a #9 over the G7.

    There's no problem with going horribly wrong, because your basic framework is Dm6. That's always going to sound good. So the other notes come from C#o7, which can be used to tonicise the Dm6 sound (which sounds cool) or to colour it in various ways. But so long as you understand how the scale is structured it's not going to be a big problem.

    Harmonic minor is obviously part of this scale. The use of this scale in bebop (Barry's area of interest) is very prevalent.

    I do. Apart from the usual maj scale a half-step up, treating the m7b5 as a m6 is good. So is the m6 a 3rd above if you're quick.
    So there you go. So you could add in the dim notes to that m6, and you have some colours to play with, also motion in your lines too.


    That works too, but the dominant sound would have to fit the context.
    On the m7b5, the related dom7 always sounds great. The minor too, of course.

    The former is particularly good if you have a stack of bebop language that works on dom7 chords.
    The latter is great if you like the melodic minor sounds.

    What, treat all m6 and dom chords as m7b5's? Not for me, I don't think, although it would supply an alternative sort of line.
    No sorry, poor clarity on my part. I mean Mark reduces everything down to three scales, IIRC doesn't he? The big ones are major and melodic minor.

    (The main difference I would say 'dominant/mixolydian' and not major basically for the reasons we've been talking about on this forum...)

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    On the m7b5, the related dom7 always sounds great. [It's] particularly good if you have a stack of bebop language that works on dom7 chords.
    This is the OP. You've just answered my question.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz View Post
    There’s no #6 or b7 in Barry’s m6dim scale. Cm6dim = C D Eb F G Ab A B or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 6 7
    By #6 I meant the #6 on the natural minor scale, which would also include the #7 - i.e. A natural minor with #7 is the harmonic. With #6 and #7 it's the melodic.

    Dorian implies playing a major scale but when regarded as a minor becomes harmonic. So G maj over Am would have an F# but a natural G. Including a G# would turn it into A melodic minor. My point was that playing melodic minor when it ought to be phyrygian clashes nastily because the F# (#6 note) should be natural. And if you followed that good for you :-)

    The BH scale you wrote out is the melodic minor with a passing note in it. The strong beat still falls on the F# (in A minor) so the same issue prevails.

  42. #41

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    Christian - re BH thing, see above

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    This is the OP. You've just answered my question.
    I doubt that (sorry) because the m7b5 fulfils too many functions**. In a minor 2-5-1 in Am, playing the Bm7b5 as a G7 would sound a bit funny because G7 isn't in the minor key. Although it can act as a jazz sub depending on what you're playing.

    Playing it as a Dm6 would sound better - or just the usual A harmonic, although some players think the harmonic minor over a m7b5 is all wrong for some reason.

    Playing the Bm7b5 as a G7 would sound fine in a blues... but then it's not a Bm7b5, it's a G9. That's the point really, it's the function that counts.

    ** try playing C melodic minor and also F# melodic minor over a Bm7b5 (putting the emphasis on the right notes) and see what you think. Interesting.

  44. #43

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    The one doesn't have to be melodic minor ALL the time.

    G7 actually is a chord in Am, just not A melodic minor... we're back to that other thread again

    I'm rewatching some videos from Peter Bernstein. A quote he just said was "scales can get you into the habit of just pressing down notes without much thought, and avoiding other notes..." It was from a MyMusicMasterClass course. The flat 7th and the flat 6th occur in the natural minor. There's nothing wrong with natural minor--I don't care what "you're suppose to do"

    I like how Pete B says to build relationships around colors and phrases and not depend on scales for ideas (learn them, but don't depend on them for everything under the Sun).

    G7 is G B D F

    in Am that would be b7 9 11 b13

    ...I quite like that sound

    and G7 to E7 is also interesting

    b7 moves to 7

    everything else stays the same. Heck, you could keep the b7 in (G) as another tension for the E7 to get a E7#9

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    BThe strong beat still falls on the F# (in A minor) so the same issue prevails.
    This is a thread hijack. It's about the idea that the scale makes sense because the strong beat falls on the F#.

    I have never understood this reasoning. If you play the scale in order, the strong beat falls on the F#. That's the idea?
    But, who is going to play the scale that way?

    A scale bottom-to-top in a solo? And, suppose you did want to play a scale and get the F# on a strong beat. You could repeat a note, do a turn, add any other passing tone, etc.

    Why does this strike some players as important?

    This isn't an invitation to have an argument -- I'm genuinely curious about this. What am I missing?

  46. #45

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    I dunno.

    BH way is a great template... but it can sound, if you use it as a dictum... I don't wanna start an argument

    I've noticed that my most interesting lines contain jumps--not intervals--jumps.

    A lot of guitar players tend to play in whole steps, half steps, and 3rds (I hate speaking intervals, but it gets the point across)

    But my favorite horn players, like Cannonball, use leaps for dramatic effect.

    Anyway, my daughtee is beckoning. Food for thought.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    This is a thread hijack. It's about the idea that the scale makes sense because the strong beat falls on the F#.

    I have never understood this reasoning. If you play the scale in order, the strong beat falls on the F#. That's the idea?
    But, who is going to play the scale that way?

    A scale bottom-to-top in a solo? And, suppose you did want to play a scale and get the F# on a strong beat. You could repeat a note, do a turn, add any other passing tone, etc.

    Why does this strike some players as important?

    This isn't an invitation to have an argument -- I'm genuinely curious about this. What am I missing?
    You're missing your own assumptions! I never said that.

    I see no point in using a melodic minor scale or outlining a m6 chord if you don't emphasise the #6 note, or even the #7 note too; they're what gives the sound its flavour. Otherwise you may as well just play a root-third-fifth minor triad or something.

    No one said anything about mechanically running up and down a scale.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    The one doesn't have to be melodic minor ALL the time.

    G7 actually is a chord in Am, just not A melodic minor... we're back to that other thread again

    I'm rewatching some videos from Peter Bernstein. A quote he just said was "scales can get you into the habit of just pressing down notes without much thought, and avoiding other notes..." It was from a MyMusicMasterClass course. The flat 7th and the flat 6th occur in the natural minor. There's nothing wrong with natural minor--I don't care what "you're suppose to do"

    I like how Pete B says to build relationships around colors and phrases and not depend on scales for ideas (learn them, but don't depend on them for everything under the Sun).

    G7 is G B D F

    in Am that would be b7 9 11 b13

    ...I quite like that sound

    and G7 to E7 is also interesting

    b7 moves to 7

    everything else stays the same. Heck, you could keep the b7 in (G) as another tension for the E7 to get a E7#9
    I said it's okay as a jazz sub, which is what you're saying basically.

    When I see Bm7b5 - E7b9 - Am7 I don't think 'That's a G7'. No way, it's a whole minor sound. I'd only introduce a G7 if I wanted a specific colour.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    By #6 I meant the #6 on the natural minor scale, which would also include the #7 - i.e. A natural minor with #7 is the harmonic. With #6 and #7 it's the melodic.

    This isn’t a Barry scale.

    Dorian implies playing a major scale but when regarded as a minor becomes harmonic. So G maj over Am would have an F# but a natural G. Including a G# would turn it into A melodic minor. My point was that playing melodic minor when it ought to be phyrygian clashes nastily because the F# (#6 note) should be natural. And if you followed that good for you :-)
    Oh I see.... Ok you mean #6 as a natural 6. As Aeolian has a b6 I would say melodic minor has a natural 6. #6 as I understand it would be enharmonic with the b7.

    (But people say Locrian #2, don’t they?)

    I think I lost the thread of your example, sorry. But if you mean that the scale of the m7 should relate to the central tonality you are of course correct.

    In general I tend to conceptualise IIIm as an inversion of I as it does seem a separate case from the II and VI.

    The BH scale you wrote out is the melodic minor with a passing note in it. The strong beat still falls on the F# (in A minor) so the same issue prevails.
    Well no that note is not just a passing note. You can use it that way, but BH uses this scale to generate rich harmony.

    So for instance he often demonstrates lines that weave in and out of the m6 and dim7 a half step below. You can borrow notes from the dim7 into the m6 and have cool voicings that sound great but aren’t easily categorisable in chord symbols.

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2 View Post
    This is the OP. You've just answered my question.
    Great! I hope you find this device as useful as I do (I learned it from Barry Harris)

    Now we’ll talk about irrelevant BS for several more pages haha

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    I dunno.

    BH way is a great template... but it can sound, if you use it as a dictum... I don't wanna start an argument

    I've noticed that my most interesting lines contain jumps--not intervals--jumps.

    A lot of guitar players tend to play in whole steps, half steps, and 3rds (I hate speaking intervals, but it gets the point across)

    But my favorite horn players, like Cannonball, use leaps for dramatic effect.

    Anyway, my daughtee is beckoning. Food for thought.
    A good melody has an interesting contour, a mix between leaps, steps and so on, clear structure and balance. I learned this from Schoenberg’s book years ago. Classical composers write the melody before thinking about harmony.

    I think guitar players are understandably so obsessed with chords and harmony we miss the melodic science a bit. Sometimes the best thing is to get really good at playing and making up melodies in one key. Horn players do this a lot, it’s why they can blag so many tunes.

    Now for guitar we feel we have to carry the harmony all the time. That can be a millstone around one’s neck.

    But you know - if you truly know the song, you can trust your ears can’t you?