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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well no that note is not just a passing note.
    Ok, he's added another note to the mm, like making a bebop scale. It's actually detailed here:

    Bebop scale - Wikipedia

    I understand this, by the way, we've done it before - 6-dim-6-dim-6 etc.

    You can use it that way, but BH uses this scale to generate rich harmony.

    So for instance he often demonstrates lines that weave in and out of the m6 and dim7 a half step below. You can borrow notes from the dim7 into the m6 and have cool voicings that sound great but aren’t easily categorisable in chord symbols.
    I'm possibly a bit slow but do you have anything written down as an example of that? Lines, not chords. I know the chordal stuff.

    .

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  3. #52

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    the more I play, the more I listen, the more the following rings true: always trust your ears.

    Remember that post (on Youtube) you did on playing a major 7th on a dominant chord in a blues?

    How it is "allowed", if you know how to treat it?

    I was playing a jam and someone picked a blues in Ab... I'm kicking myself for not remembering what the tune was...

    Anyway, in the course of my improvisation I kept going back to G natural to Ab... My theory mind was like "you idiot, you DON'T play a major seventh on a dominant in a blues. You DAFT SCHNOSAGE!"

    But my ear was saying "hey man, that major seventh is HIP man! Can YOU DIG IT?!?"

    I'm a bit of a goofball... a nut, as neatomic says

    I've been doing a lot of tune based contextual ear training (check the performance ear training thread). So I'm training myself to hear major sevenths on dominants--it makes sense if you hear a V of the dominant (F7 over a Bb7 kinda sound--just resolve it).

    I often get into another argument--that's the dreaded major 3rd over a minor tonality. It's been a difficult sound for me to hear consistently, but I LOVE the rub it creates. And it makes sense, given the right harmony over a minor tonality.

    ERGH, Chris'77, I'm obsessing over harmony again

    And writing long posts.

    Melody, yes! I need to read that Schoenberg book on melody. Does he talk about the farce of "atonal music" in his book. Bruce Arnold had choice words to say about "atonal music"--he improvises with tone rows, and plays Webern like this:



    If you listen to enough music, your ear picks up things that your mind may not understand at the moment. We spoke about this, so I won't rehash the whole thread. I just think that the ears are incredibly powerful, and we...for whatever reason... often overlook our ears when studying music

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Ok, he's added another note to the mm, like making a bebop scale. It's actually detailed here:

    Bebop scale - Wikipedia

    I understand this, by the way, we've done it before - 6-dim-6-dim-6 etc.
    OK, so just to be clear, the distinction is:

    The bop scale is one of the simplest ways to rhythmically regularise a (usually descending) stepwise melodic scale. Good example is the first phrase of Donna Lee.

    The six-dim scales of BH are scales designed to produce interesting voicings and progressions.

    Some of the six-dim scales can be used for the first thing, but the usage is not the same. In the first case that #5 is not a harmonic note - it's a passing tone. In the second case it is a harmonic note.

    I'm possibly a bit slow but do you have anything written down as an example of that? Lines, not chords. I know the chordal stuff.

    .
    In terms of the scales themselves, or how they would be used in a line?

    The BH added note scales for lines can be as complex as you like. You can add in every chromatic note and still clearly out line a dom7 chord for instance.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-19-2019 at 06:15 AM.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    the more I play, the more I listen, the more the following rings true: always trust your ears.

    Remember that post (on Youtube) you did on playing a major 7th on a dominant chord in a blues?

    How it is "allowed", if you know how to treat it?

    I was playing a jam and someone picked a blues in Ab... I'm kicking myself for not remembering what the tune was...

    Anyway, in the course of my improvisation I kept going back to G natural to Ab... My theory mind was like "you idiot, you DON'T play a major seventh on a dominant in a blues. You DAFT SCHNOSAGE!"

    But my ear was saying "hey man, that major seventh is HIP man! Can YOU DIG IT?!?"

    I'm a bit of a goofball... a nut, as neatomic says

    I've been doing a lot of tune based contextual ear training (check the performance ear training thread). So I'm training myself to hear major sevenths on dominants--it makes sense if you hear a V of the dominant (F7 over a Bb7 kinda sound--just resolve it).

    I often get into another argument--that's the dreaded major 3rd over a minor tonality. It's been a difficult sound for me to hear consistently, but I LOVE the rub it creates. And it makes sense, given the right harmony over a minor tonality.

    ERGH, Chris'77, I'm obsessing over harmony again

    And writing long posts.

    Melody, yes! I need to read that Schoenberg book on melody. Does he talk about the farce of "atonal music" in his book. Bruce Arnold had choice words to say about "atonal music"--he improvises with tone rows, and plays Webern like this:



    If you listen to enough music, your ear picks up things that your mind may not understand at the moment. We spoke about this, so I won't rehash the whole thread. I just think that the ears are incredibly powerful, and we...for whatever reason... often overlook our ears when studying music
    As a physics/astronomy graduate there's nothing that grinds my gears quite like a physics reference in a band or tune name. "Hey, I'm Guthrie Fartlebluster and the next tune is called Mu-Meson. If anyone can tell me what time signatures it's in, you win the special prize. We'll unlock the doors of the club and let you escape."

    TBF to Bruce, that one's a little less naff than many. And I'll let Motian off for 'Momentum Space.'

    The Schoenberg book in question - fundamentals of musical composition - is only concerned with the practices of 18th - 19th century Western European tonal composers, mostly German.

    I couldn't at this time give a flying fuck about dodeca-cacophony (see what I did there?), what do you think this is 1953*? All the coolest Arnie is pre 12-tone anyway, Second String Quartet, Ewartung, Peirrot Lunaire, Five pieces etc.

    None of the serialists liked his 12 tone music anyway. They were all about the Webern.

    Every so often someone goes "oo look 12 tone jazz!" As if they were the first to come up with the idea. They are not. It's just a bad idea, so it gets forgotten quickly.

    (That said I really like this. I don't think it's 12-tone but it's clearly influenced by the 'serious music' of the previous decade. This is from '30s I think:

    )

    Anyway in seriousness, you could see the 12-tone approach as being completely melodic/polyphonic, esp. with Webern (despite Arnie's best attempts to write wrong note Brahms with it.)

    Major third on minor. That is hard to hear. I mean TBH I don't play with any pianists, so I if I majorise a chord it's not really a big deal.

    * OK I'm a fucking jazz guitarist, fair point.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    the more I play, the more I listen, the more the following rings true: always trust your ears.

    Remember that post (on Youtube) you did on playing a major 7th on a dominant chord in a blues?

    How it is "allowed", if you know how to treat it?

    I was playing a jam and someone picked a blues in Ab... I'm kicking myself for not remembering what the tune was...

    Anyway, in the course of my improvisation I kept going back to G natural to Ab... My theory mind was like "you idiot, you DON'T play a major seventh on a dominant in a blues. You DAFT SCHNOSAGE!"

    But my ear was saying "hey man, that major seventh is HIP man! Can YOU DIG IT?!?"
    You do realise very few Parker blues heads employ the b7 until the 4th bar? The major seventh OTOH is all over the place.

    In fact, he's perfectly happy to play a major seventh on chord IV.



    He'd fail Harmony 101 for sure. The theory is incorrect, as usual.

    Try playing 6 or 6/9 chords or even straight major instead as a comper (or do what Errol Garner does on piano here, leave space and listen). Allow the soloist to decide what they want to with the seventh. Until you know their style anyway.

    Here's another famous example:



    You could say it's because Miles isn't very good at bop, I suppose, but you couldn't say that about Bird, presumably. Red Garland arranged this solo years later, which you can hear in the second half of the video.

    Check out the clashes!

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    In terms of the scales themselves, or how they would be used in a line?
    In a line.

    The BH added note scales for lines can be as complex as you like. You can add in every chromatic note and still clearly out line a dom7 chord for instance
    Well, as usual, depends how it's done, I'd say. As for dom7 chords, they'll take practically anything, as we know :-)

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    In a line.
    Cool I’ll post something when I have a moment.

    Well, as usual, depends how it's done, I'd say. As for dom7 chords, they'll take practically anything, as we know :-)
    As in outline a straight dom7 1-3-5-b7 sound pretty clearly

  9. #58

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    Thanks.

    Incidentally, you know and I know that the maj7 note in a dominant blues doesn't matter much coz all the notes of all the chords kind of blend mysteriously together :-)

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You do realise very few Parker blues heads employ the b7 until the 4th bar? The major seventh OTOH is all over the place.

    In fact, he's perfectly happy to play a major seventh on chord IV.



    He'd fail Harmony 101 for sure. The theory is incorrect, as usual.

    Try playing 6 or 6/9 chords or even straight major instead as a comper (or do what Errol Garner does on piano here, leave space and listen). Allow the soloist to decide what they want to with the seventh. Until you know their style anyway.

    Here's another famous example:



    You could say it's because Miles isn't very good at bop, I suppose, but you couldn't say that about Bird, presumably. Red Garland arranged this solo years later, which you can hear in the second half of the video.

    Check out the clashes!
    I'm not sure what theory you're thinking of, but all the blues theory I'm aware of talks about 3 5 and 7 being microtonal continuums. Surely, you've read that great book by Burnett, Morganfield and King ...

    John

  11. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    By #6 I meant the #6 on the natural minor scale, which would also include the #7 - i.e. A natural minor with #7 is the harmonic. With #6 and #7 it's the melodic.
    You can think about things any way you want for your own playing, but it's confusing in group conversation.

    The convention is an intervallic one, not relative to scale. Natural minor has a b3, b6 and b7, ...as in minor 3rd, minor 6th, minor 7th intervals. It doesn't really matter about our opinions re this, it's the way the terms are used and understood.

    (I've seen people call it "Locrian nat2" BTW. Must drive some theory people up the wall.)

    b6 and b3 are the standard usages for talking minor though.

  12. #61

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    Question is: was Charlie's use of the maj7 planned and deliberate or a slip that worked???

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I'm not sure what theory you're thinking of, but all the blues theory I'm aware of talks about 3 5 and 7 being microtonal continuums. Surely, you've read that great book by Burnett, Morganfield and King ...

    John
    Chord scale theory of course! Or at least the brain dead and pernicious version of it that insists on relating everything to chord symbols.

    That said, the blues has always been an exception to the normal run of things. However that’s usually from the POV of putting a b7 or b3 on a major chord, not so much putting a major seventh on a 7#11 as we hear with the miles solo.

    As far the microtones go..... some singers in particular and players like to be in the cracks. But for jazz guitar and piano, we can hit the b3 and 3 together....

    Speaking of microtones, there’s that thing where a bass player will play four notes to get from C to an Eb say.

    Anyone mentioning Jacob Collier will get a slap.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Question is: was Charlie's use of the maj7 planned and deliberate or a slip that worked???
    Well he did it over and over again so presumably wasn’t a mistake.

    If you check out Lester Young (Birds inspiration) and his contemporaries, it’s pretty plain players of this era saw major chords and dominants as fairly interchangeable.

    But the accompanying chords were usually just 6s or triads, so there’s less chance of a clash.

    In the case of cool blues, it might be that Bird thought better of it as iirc the Massey hall version alters the second repetition of the phrase to fit IV7
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-19-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    You can think about things any way you want for your own playing, but it's confusing in group conversation.

    The convention is an intervallic one, not relative to scale. Natural minor has a b3, b6 and b7, ...as in minor 3rd, minor 6th, minor 7th intervals. It doesn't really matter about our opinions re this, it's the way the terms are used and understood.

    (I've seen people call it "Locrian nat2" BTW. Must drive some theory people up the wall.)

    b6 and b3 are the standard usages for talking minor though.
    I’m not sure if understand which version is meant to be more common from your post - locrian #2? I think I’ve seen that more frequently.

    And is it Nat 6 or flat 6 in your opinion? I think you mean nat6? Not sure tho.

    All the melodic minor mode names are eye bleeding atrocities but that one is particularly bad tbf.

    At least you could say that the major scale mode names have a mysterious poetry about them.

  16. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’m not sure if understand which version is meant to be more common from your post - locrian #2? I think I’ve seen that more frequently.

    And is it Nat 6 or flat 6 in your opinion? I think you mean nat6? Not sure tho.

    All the melodic minor mode names are eye bleeding atrocities but that one is particularly bad tbf.

    At least you could say that the major scale mode names have a mysterious poetry about them.
    It's mostly the same convention as intervals or Roman numerals.

    Dorian is b3, 6, b7
    Nat minor: b3, b6, b7

    These line up with major/minor interval naming. There's a lot of casual usages which are slightly different among musicians, like the tendency to use sharp/flat as a verb. I mean you can talk about "raising the seven of natural minor" etc. or "sharping it", but at least you're specifically describinga different reference point.

    All things being equal, without plainly stating one way or another, intervals are described as they are in classical. 3= major 3rd. "The sixth scale degree of natural minor is a minor 6th above the root ...a b6". It's fine to talk about raising the 6 or 7 of natural minor etc., but when you insert them into text out of context as #6 or#7 it's pretty confusing. This is like the third thread in which we've discussed this. I don't think he's keen on changing this. The shortcut to this minor derail may be for someone else to point out "he means nat6".

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    It's mostly the same convention as intervals or Roman numerals.

    Dorian is b3, 6, b7
    Nat minor: b3, b6, b7

    These line up with major/minor interval naming. There's a lot of casual usages which are slightly different among musicians, like the tendency to use sharp/flat as a verb. I mean you can talk about "raising the seven of natural minor" etc. or "sharping it", but at least you're specifically describinga different reference point.

    All things being equal, without plainly stating one way or another, intervals are described as they are in classical. 3= major 3rd. "The sixth scale degree of natural minor is a minor 6th above the root ...a b6". It's fine to talk about raising the 6 or 7 of natural minor etc., but when you insert them into text out of context as #6 or#7 it's pretty confusing. This is like the third thread in which we've discussed this. I don't think he's keen on changing this. The shortcut to this minor derail may be for someone else to point out "he means nat6".
    Good that's how I thought we did it.

  18. #67

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    OK here's a wicked example, probably the first time I saw/heard bop scales in the wild, transcribing this solo. Wayne Shorter, Yes or No.

    Thanks to YouTube we have a chart to follow along...

    At 1:24 / bar 88 Wayne plays a descending G7 with one added note (F#) what most people would call a G dominant bebop scale. He does this on a Bm7b5 (F dominant/Am7b5 concert pitch)

    At 1:29 / bar 95 Wayne plays a descending C7 scale with the added note (B) over Gm7. (Bb7 on Fm7 concert)



    Wayne certainly shedded his bop.

    Did he ever study or hang with Barry? I don't think so - although Zawinul and Henderson did. Again it points to the remarkable consistency of practice during the Blue Note era. Most guys played this kind of thing, these types of ideas were clearly doing the rounds.

    Also in the thumbnail, G7 scale against Cmaj7... interesting... resolves to Em7/Cmaj9, so probably a prolonged G7-C cadence (F7 and Bbmaj7 concert)

  19. #68

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    Thanks for the effort. I haven't looked at YouTube yet but I have trawled through the Coltrane Patterns thing. Leaving aside examples where the F#/Gb is played as a passing note (with F and G either side of it) I can only find 3 examples where an F# is played where it counts...
    If Fmi7b5 and Db9 are (kind of) the same chord what's the benefit to me, if any?-jpg
    If Fmi7b5 and Db9 are (kind of) the same chord what's the benefit to me, if any?-b-jpg
    If Fmi7b5 and Db9 are (kind of) the same chord what's the benefit to me, if any?-c-jpg

  20. #69

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    I started YouTube but, you know, it's quite long... But this was the very FIRST one I saw!


  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    You're missing your own assumptions! I never said that.

    I see no point in using a melodic minor scale or outlining a m6 chord if you don't emphasise the #6 note, or even the #7 note too; they're what gives the sound its flavour. Otherwise you may as well just play a root-third-fifth minor triad or something.

    No one said anything about mechanically running up and down a scale.
    I didn't mean to suggest that you said it. That's why I called it a hijack. But it's something I've read repeatedly, ie, that the added note allows the strong tones to be on the strong beats.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I started YouTube but, you know, it's quite long... But this was the very FIRST one I saw!

    Well I’ve give timestamps to save time
    .
    Nice thing is mine is relevant to the OP

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I started YouTube but, you know, it's quite long... But this was the very FIRST one I saw!

    Yeah lots of classic bop scale use in this one

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I didn't mean to suggest that you said it. That's why I called it a hijack. But it's something I've read repeatedly, ie, that the added note allows the strong tones to be on the strong beats.
    In the case of Barry’s minor scale, the natural 7th is not emphasised rhythmically but the Nat 6 is. That’s why I think of it as being different to melodic minor but tbh there’s not a huge amount in it to my ears.


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    the added note allows the strong tones to be on the strong beats.
    Yes, that's the whole point of a bebop scale.

    Descending G mixolydian (C major) scale over G7:

    | G F E D C B A G |

    The strong tones aren't chord tones. Add the new note Gb:

    | G Gb F E D C B A | G

    Bingo, all the strong notes are chord tones.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    In the case of Barry’s minor scale, the natural 7th is not emphasised rhythmically but the Nat 6 is. That’s why I think of it as being different to melodic minor but tbh there’s not a huge amount in it to my ears.

    Good effort. As long as it sounds good in real time, which I've no doubt it would :-)