The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Ok, obviously you need to hear something first before you able to copy it. Hypothetically, if you only listen to polka and never exposed to swing you wouldnt know how when you playing.

    But I thought the question was can passive listening improve your rhythm, just listening. I dont think so. It can inform you, but you still need to try to copy it somehow, either on instrument, or by voice, or clapping etc.

    But do an experiment. Instead of playing, substitute it with listening for a month or so, then pick up your guitar and see if you can swing like never before. Report back.

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  3. #27

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    I've done it for almost a month, when work was really heavy.

    Did it change how I played thereafter, yes.

    My technique suffered a little, but I found that I was listening more to what I played.

    Mind you, I was also actively ear training during that time--still do (Hep knows my deal).

    And I became more aware of my rhythms. I think I was listening to a lot of Grant Green and Wes at that time--why did I ever stop?

  4. #28
    no one said anything about not practicing. I listen all day then go home and practice. The rhythms I hear are going to show up in my practicing, and then in my playing. I play transcribed solos every day. I learn rhythm that way too. What I don't do is sit down and say "okay I'll practice rhythm for half an hour now."

    No I won't stop practicing and I won't listen to polka for a month. That's what makes it an interesting question; because no one will do that.

    edit: never mind apparently Irez did it haha

  5. #29

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    It was a REALLY difficult month, I had to leave a teaching gig that I loved because of extenuating circumstances...

    Playing took a back seat, but listening was always there. My approach (and that of many professionals) is I'm ALWAYS a listener first, and a player second.

    Did a jam yesterday with high school horn players in Seattle... yeow can they play (like I said, there's a reason why they've won Essentially Ellington so many times. It's not just that they are good readers--they KNOW how to improvise!) Anyway, they called Minority at a brisk tempo. I could play at that tempo, but I couldn't hear what was going on--so my mindset switched. I became a player first and my listening took a backseat--and I fell flat on my face. Guess what's next in the shed? Hearing Minority as clearly as possible (I think it's essentially a minor blues, but when you are just reading a chart and nervous because people half your age are kicking your arse...you kinda miss those things) For me, at least, my ears have to be in the drivers seat at all times.

    I'm friends with a bassist who studied with Mike Longo back in the day. Chris'77, remember Mike Longo? I think I wanna get back into those time studies with the bass player.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    It was a REALLY difficult month, I had to leave a teaching gig that I loved because of extenuating circumstances...

    Playing took a back seat, but listening was always there. My approach (and that of many professionals) is I'm ALWAYS a listener first, and a player second.

    Did a jam yesterday with high school horn players in Seattle... yeow can they play (like I said, there's a reason why they've won Essentially Ellington so many times. It's not just that they are good readers--they KNOW how to improvise!) Anyway, they called Minority at a brisk tempo. I could play at that tempo, but I couldn't hear what was going on--so my mindset switched. I became a player first and my listening took a backseat--and I fell flat on my face. Guess what's next in the shed? Hearing Minority as clearly as possible (I think it's essentially a minor blues, but when you are just reading a chart and nervous because people half your age are kicking your arse...you kinda miss those things) For me, at least, my ears have to be in the drivers seat at all times.

    I'm friends with a bassist who studied with Mike Longo back in the day. Chris'77, remember Mike Longo? I think I wanna get back into those time studies with the bass player.
    Yes, I've been meaning to dig his stuff out again because there's so much related to what I've been looking into + bonritmos's stuff on Ketu Candomble Codes.

    But i order to do that, I will need to be able to do some practice lol. Not so easy right now. Any practice time I do have ATM I am focussing on rep for gigs...

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    So if music is an aural act--we should place a premium on learning by listening.
    Obviously, but, playing music is a physical act, and just because you can hear it, doesn't mean you can execute it. Being a great listener with a great ear is just the beginning, but if you can't translate it to your hands????

    There's learning to be a listener, and learning to be a player. I'm sure your listening skills are way in advance of your playing, like most of us.

    Like they say, if you don't have the technique to execute it, it's not very practical and just talk.

    I agree that if you can't hear/feel it in your head/mind FIRST, you will never play it.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Obviously, but, playing music is a physical act, and just because you can hear it, doesn't mean you can execute it. Being a great listener with a great ear is just the beginning, but if you can't translate it to your hands????

    There's learning to be a listener, and learning to be a player. I'm sure your listening skills are way in advance of your playing, like most of us.

    Like they say, if you don't have the technique to execute it, it's not very practical and just talk.

    I agree that if you can't hear/feel it in your head/mind FIRST, you will never play it.
    That's pretty much it. And what Christian said. I too always have tunes to learn and practice for gigs so I don't have much time to practice listening. I try to listen to the music when I'm on the move though. Otherwise it's always with guitar in my hands.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's pretty much it. And what Christian said. I too always have tunes to learn and practice for gigs so I don't have much time to practice listening. I try to listen to the music when I'm on the move though. Otherwise it's always with guitar in my hands.
    You mean like when we're both wasting time talking trivially on the internet (not just you Hep, I'm talking generally)?

    I dunno. I get the need to spend time learning tunes. There's no shortcut, you need to sit down and do the hard work of learning tunes, however that may look like to you.

    But whenever I get into ear training stuff on the forum, unless it's on the journal I started, I hear the same refrain "ain't nobody got time for that"

    But we have time (myself included) to write lengthy posts ad nauseam about every topic under the sun. Think of what we all could do if we spent that time on our ears, however we all work on ear training (transcribing or elsewise).

    It just irks me a little. We're playing music, not running marathons. At the end of the day, it don't mean shite if it doesn't sound good. So, in the end, were concerned with sound. If we can learn to understand sound enough to control it and carve it into the sonic landscapes we wish to express, what's the harm in that.

    To quote Arrested Development:



    I think I'm outta the long posts game on JGF. I still enjoy participating in it, but writing these long posts are a waste of time. Meh, different strokes for different folks.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    You mean like when we're both wasting time talking trivially on the internet (not just you Hep, I'm talking generally)?

    I dunno. I get the need to spend time learning tunes. There's no shortcut, you need to sit down and do the hard work of learning tunes, however that may look like to you.

    But whenever I get into ear training stuff on the forum, unless it's on the journal I started, I hear the same refrain "ain't nobody got time for that"

    But we have time (myself included) to write lengthy posts ad nauseam about every topic under the sun. Think of what we all could do if we spent that time on our ears, however we all work on ear training (transcribing or elsewise).

    It just irks me a little. We're playing music, not running marathons. At the end of the day, it don't mean shite if it doesn't sound good. So, in the end, were concerned with sound. If we can learn to understand sound enough to control it and carve it into the sonic landscapes we wish to express, what's the harm in that.

    To quote Arrested Development:



    I think I'm outta the long posts game on JGF. I still enjoy participating in it, but writing these long posts are a waste of time. Meh, different strokes for different folks.
    Right. Thats why I dont write long posts, never been in that game lol.

  11. #35

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    How much rhythm absorbed passive listening?

    A trick question... in my entire life, I have never listened to music passively, always actively.
    As a child before playing any instruments I always heard music as intrinsically self revealing.

  12. #36

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    There are many different levels and methods of listening. I don’t think background music does much for my rhythm if I’m focused on something else. But the more I engage while listening the more I feel it contributes to my rhythm. Moving or tapping along with the beat is one level of engagement. Singing, humming or scatting along is another. I’ve found it can really help to try to tap out syncopated rhythms while listening. For example, try to tap out a bongo beat or samba beat while listening to a swing tune or vice versa, or try tapping out triplets or five beats per measure over a swing tune. There are lots of little games you can make to really engage with the rhythm. I sometimes challenged myself to tap out syncopated rhythms while driving when I had a long daily commute...and no accidents except when another driver rear ended me!
    Last edited by KirkP; 07-10-2019 at 11:39 PM.

  13. #37

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    My wife already got rear ended by an Uber driver in Renton, and we weren't even living here yet

    Hep, I know. I was just annoyed by the "training your ear is a waste of time" stuff which I see as BS. Everyone is different.

    Speaking of athleticism, I found out I can hang at 260bpm playing rhythm changes. It sounds like bs, but I can hang... that's huge for me.

    It relates to this thread because at faster tempos, you can reorient yourself so that everything feels slower.

    IE don't get intimidated by the bass and drums. Don't get intimidated by the young horn players.

    Do stomp your foot every measure, or better--stomp your foot every two measures.

    I was playing along to some Barry Greene masterclass--he was warming up with RC's--and I noticed "why does this feel so EASY now".

    It wasn't me. It was Barry's comping. His comping made 240 feel like 120, you dig what I'm saying? Okay that's my cap--I'll try to keep to it

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I don't know to whom this is directed or even what it means on some levels.

    ...But as regards MY previous post, I'll just add that I personally think that if you DON'T hear things better on recordings AFTER learning to actually play some of them...arpeggios, licks, note sets, and yes, even rhythms...something's wrong with what you're doing.

    That's been my experience on all levels of music as well as many other pursuits one life. I don't understand the idea that it's somehow a one-way conduit and that the brain lacks the ability to communicate this information both ways.

    I would wager that athletes generally "see" much more than I do... in other athletes , ... I'd say less so from having WATCHED others as much or more than me. Physical/kinesthetic experiences absolutely influence you've ability to perceive them elsewhere.
    Definitely wasn't directed at you, or anyone.

    It's sort of addressing sort of that blanket idea of over academicizing jazz and expecting to be able to play it without actually listening to it, or enjoying it. I see it with a lot of young people I meet. They want to learn from books and practice rhythmic exercises, expe ting that to somehow magically seep into their playing. All while not actually liking the music they're trying to play. It's so self defeating.

    Rhythm has to be felt and internalized. I mean, you can sit down with a guitar and say "I'm gonna practice subdivisions" or you can get a couple clave sticks and play along to Brazilian records...in my mind, there's no QUESTION at all that the second option will teach you more.

    I think a lot of folks want to be rhythmically interesting before they're even rhythmically solid.

    This is why the Longo stuff intrigues me, even if the idea of 20 white dudes in a room with djembes is not far off from my personal vision of hell. It's all about FEEL from what I've gathered, and that's the important thing.

    Reg always says stuff along the lines of "first you have to get your shit together technically" and I think that really applies here...if you're struggling to do something rhythmically nd you CAN sing it, then it's probably a technique hang up.

    It's crazy now, at 40, I'm finally beginning to accept where my past laziness technique wise is holding me back. 20 something years of denial. Ih well, I'm planning on keeping at it

  15. #39

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    I think it's time to for someone to start another thread, since we've definitely derailed this one...

    It's an interesting annoyance. Guitar videos on youtube are 90% of the following:

    1. theory

    2. technique

    3. gear

    Horn videos, yeah they got that, but they delve deeper into actually playing the music.

    I found an alto player who has 5 videos just on bop articulations (Chris'77, you'd love those videos--I'll try to find em again)

    Piano players, well--how many times am I gonna post links to the "You'll Hear It" podcast until someone here actually watches them.

    I could go on, but I need to follow my cap.

  16. #40

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    And there's almost no talk (when it comes to electric guitar) about affecting tone by changing technique...its almost all gear/gizmos when it comes to "tone."

  17. #41
    I guess it doesn't matter, If I'm stuck at work for 8 hours I'll be listening to good music either way

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    You mean like when we're both wasting time talking trivially on the internet (not just you Hep, I'm talking generally)?
    Well, in my defence I have a lot of scraps of downtime when I’m not near a guitar or able to practice. :-)

    Not much of a defence lol

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    the idea of 20 white dudes in a room with djembes is not far off from my personal vision of hell.
    LOL that reminds me of a BBC documentary about Django which I saw many years ago, at one point they showed the ‘hot club of Essex’ or something, which basically consisted of 20 very serious ancient amateur guitarists painfully strumming their way through some vaguely Django-ish gypsy chords. It sounded like a funeral dirge, no sense of fun or passion at all.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Definitely wasn't directed at you, or anyone.

    It's sort of addressing sort of that blanket idea of over academicizing jazz and expecting to be able to play it without actually listening to it, or enjoying it. I see it with a lot of young people I meet. They want to learn from books and practice rhythmic exercises, expe ting that to somehow magically seep into their playing. All while not actually liking the music they're trying to play. It's so self defeating.

    Rhythm has to be felt and internalized. I mean, you can sit down with a guitar and say "I'm gonna practice subdivisions" or you can get a couple clave sticks and play along to Brazilian records...in my mind, there's no QUESTION at all that the second option will teach you more.

    I think a lot of folks want to be rhythmically interesting before they're even rhythmically solid.

    This is why the Longo stuff intrigues me, even if the idea of 20 white dudes in a room with djembes is not far off from my personal vision of hell.
    Hey man, you didn’t grow up in Brighton. You have no idea. It’s a city almost entirely consisting of white guys with djembes.

    It's all about FEEL from what I've gathered, and that's the important thing.

    Reg always says stuff along the lines of "first you have to get your shit together technically" and I think that really applies here...if you're struggling to do something rhythmically nd you CAN sing it, then it's probably a technique hang up.

    It's crazy now, at 40, I'm finally beginning to accept where my past laziness technique wise is holding me back. 20 something years of denial. Ih well, I'm planning on keeping at it
    Lot of truth to that. I’m finding similar stuff especially at high tempos.

    Perhaps it’s technique, but by the same token, perhaps it’s also, try to do less.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    How much do you think passive listening to jazz all day affects our rhythmic vocabulary? I.e. how much just sinks in automatically? Does listening to jazz all day = 15 minutes of actually practicing various rhythmic figures? Does nothing happen unless you are engaged in "active listening?" May be interesting for discussion
    I wonder about the premise to the question -- a musician listening passively all day to jazz. I have been playing with some degree of seriousness since I was a teenager. I doubt I have ever listened passively all day to jazz (or other music I have some interest in). Part of being a musician is an (at times frustrating) inability to just listen without in some way analyzing, imitating, playing/singing/tapping along with.

    John

  22. #46

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    Joe, John A. brings up a good point.

    I don't think any of us listen to music as background. It's not something we do to fill up dead space in a room or entertain guests... at least not most guests...

    Most of my day is full of listening to music in some way shape or form, even with the ear training I do...

    by the way, you all TOTALLY have time to commit to ear training (listening to rhythms and drumming along is considered ear training as well in my book)

    At tops, I ear train 5-10 minute sessions 3-4 times a day. That's a half hour--as Gob said "C'MON!"

    Listening to music is another form of ear training. Practicing phrases against a click and getting comfortable internalizing the space in between--ear training.

    Anything informed by your ear, is ear training--I just have a more direct approach--but it's all ear all the time. Okay, that's my cap.

  23. #47
    i listen to the music like a musician; I'm just not transcribing or analyzing anything consciously. I tap sing along etc but only to the degree it is natural. Sorry to hear enjoying music is ruined by your tortured genius. you guys are a tough crowd

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    i listen to the music like a musician; I'm just not transcribing or analyzing anything consciously. I tap sing along etc but only to the degree it is natural. Sorry to hear enjoying music is ruined by your tortured genius. you guys are a tough crowd
    Enjoying music I actually enjoy is not ruined -- the problem for me is I can't passively hear or ignore listen to music I don't enjoy, which I am constantly bombarded with in public spaces. Active listening to music I like is highly entertaining, and not at all a problem.

    John

  25. #49
    looks like our definitions of passive listening are just different.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    looks like our definitions of passive listening are just different.
    To answer your original question using your sense of passive listening (i.e., including tapping, singing, maybe playing along with, but not doing so in a serious, studious way ...), a lot, but I wouldn't know how to quantify it.

    John