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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Definitely wasn't directed at you, or anyone.

    It's sort of addressing sort of that blanket idea of over academicizing jazz and expecting to be able to play it without actually listening to it, or enjoying it. I see it with a lot of young people I meet. They want to learn from books and practice rhythmic exercises, expe ting that to somehow magically seep into their playing. All while not actually liking the music they're trying to play. It's so self defeating.

    Rhythm has to be felt and internalized. I mean, you can sit down with a guitar and say "I'm gonna practice subdivisions" or you can get a couple clave sticks and play along to Brazilian records...in my mind, there's no QUESTION at all that the second option will teach you more.

    I think a lot of folks want to be rhythmically interesting before they're even rhythmically solid.

    This is why the Longo stuff intrigues me, even if the idea of 20 white dudes in a room with djembes is not far off from my personal vision of hell.
    Hey man, you didn’t grow up in Brighton. You have no idea. It’s a city almost entirely consisting of white guys with djembes.

    It's all about FEEL from what I've gathered, and that's the important thing.

    Reg always says stuff along the lines of "first you have to get your shit together technically" and I think that really applies here...if you're struggling to do something rhythmically nd you CAN sing it, then it's probably a technique hang up.

    It's crazy now, at 40, I'm finally beginning to accept where my past laziness technique wise is holding me back. 20 something years of denial. Ih well, I'm planning on keeping at it
    Lot of truth to that. I’m finding similar stuff especially at high tempos.

    Perhaps it’s technique, but by the same token, perhaps it’s also, try to do less.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    How much do you think passive listening to jazz all day affects our rhythmic vocabulary? I.e. how much just sinks in automatically? Does listening to jazz all day = 15 minutes of actually practicing various rhythmic figures? Does nothing happen unless you are engaged in "active listening?" May be interesting for discussion
    I wonder about the premise to the question -- a musician listening passively all day to jazz. I have been playing with some degree of seriousness since I was a teenager. I doubt I have ever listened passively all day to jazz (or other music I have some interest in). Part of being a musician is an (at times frustrating) inability to just listen without in some way analyzing, imitating, playing/singing/tapping along with.

    John

  4. #53

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    Joe, John A. brings up a good point.

    I don't think any of us listen to music as background. It's not something we do to fill up dead space in a room or entertain guests... at least not most guests...

    Most of my day is full of listening to music in some way shape or form, even with the ear training I do...

    by the way, you all TOTALLY have time to commit to ear training (listening to rhythms and drumming along is considered ear training as well in my book)

    At tops, I ear train 5-10 minute sessions 3-4 times a day. That's a half hour--as Gob said "C'MON!"

    Listening to music is another form of ear training. Practicing phrases against a click and getting comfortable internalizing the space in between--ear training.

    Anything informed by your ear, is ear training--I just have a more direct approach--but it's all ear all the time. Okay, that's my cap.

  5. #54
    i listen to the music like a musician; I'm just not transcribing or analyzing anything consciously. I tap sing along etc but only to the degree it is natural. Sorry to hear enjoying music is ruined by your tortured genius. you guys are a tough crowd
    White belt
    My Youtube

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i listen to the music like a musician; I'm just not transcribing or analyzing anything consciously. I tap sing along etc but only to the degree it is natural. Sorry to hear enjoying music is ruined by your tortured genius. you guys are a tough crowd
    Enjoying music I actually enjoy is not ruined -- the problem for me is I can't passively hear or ignore listen to music I don't enjoy, which I am constantly bombarded with in public spaces. Active listening to music I like is highly entertaining, and not at all a problem.

    John

  7. #56
    looks like our definitions of passive listening are just different.
    White belt
    My Youtube

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    looks like our definitions of passive listening are just different.
    To answer your original question using your sense of passive listening (i.e., including tapping, singing, maybe playing along with, but not doing so in a serious, studious way ...), a lot, but I wouldn't know how to quantify it.

    John

  9. #58

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    So to try to steer myself back to the OP...

    I'm sure it couldn't hurt...just being around jazz all day.

    I think of Active listening and Passive listening as kind of two ends to a continuum, not an "either/or." Like others have said, I generally don't listen to music i like completely passively...there's some form of interaction, usually.

    I might have jazz on in my classroom all day, and honestly, as opposed to passively listening to it while teaching, I might honestly not be listening at all. It just provides a backdrop to daily activity, like some people turn the tv on for noise.

    When I am listening, even if it's at about the most passive level I can do, there's still probably something I'm "noticing." How helpful is that in the long run? Again...it cant hurt. You know how a tune it something gets caught in your subconscious? An ear worm? Same deal. Passive listening I think CAN make something hang around if you're a bit familiar with it already...maybe it WASN'T in your head, but now it IS.

    I can go to the grocery store and hear "Mandy" by Barry Manilow, and I'm not paying attention to it, or particularly enjoying it, as I'm trying to find a pack or raspberries without a fuzzy one on the bottom or something. But then later, there's Mandy. And I try to put on something cool, like some Deep Purple, to drown it out...and I'm singing "like a driving power big fat tires and everything...I want it...and I need you today, oh Mandy..."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So to try to steer myself back to the OP...

    I'm sure it couldn't hurt...just being around jazz all day.

    I think of Active listening and Passive listening as kind of two ends to a continuum, not an "either/or." Like others have said, I generally don't listen to music i like completely passively...there's some form of interaction, usually.

    I might have jazz on in my classroom all day, and honestly, as opposed to passively listening to it while teaching, I might honestly not be listening at all. It just provides a backdrop to daily activity, like some people turn the tv on for noise.

    When I am listening, even if it's at about the most passive level I can do, there's still probably something I'm "noticing." How helpful is that in the long run? Again...it cant hurt. You know how a tune it something gets caught in your subconscious? An ear worm? Same deal. Passive listening I think CAN make something hang around if you're a bit familiar with it already...maybe it WASN'T in your head, but now it IS.

    I can go to the grocery store and hear "Mandy" by Barry Manilow, and I'm not paying attention to it, or particularly enjoying it, as I'm trying to find a pack or raspberries without a fuzzy one on the bottom or something. But then later, there's Mandy. And I try to put on something cool, like some Deep Purple, to drown it out...and I'm singing "like a driving power big fat tires and everything...I want it...and I need you today, oh Mandy..."
    Well, thanks very much for that Mr. B. Just by writing the word "Mandy" you've reanimated an earworm I've only intermittantly been able to keep tamped down since 19 friggin' 74.

    Which leads me to a thought -- this stuff about passive listening's effect on musicianship? Age probably plays a big part. There are songs I absorbed as a kid without actively "learning" that I can still sing, in some cases pretty completely. Something similar likely happened with beats and rhythms.

    John

  11. #60

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    Someone played the Peacocks today in the coffee shop and I was totally unable to concentrate on my admin.

    I don’t really do background music at the best of times, but how the fuck does Esperanza sing and play like that at the same time????

  12. #61

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    Oooh, was it Esperanzas version? Man is that good. Junjo is a fucking killer album.

    And John A., another interesting thing is how our mind incorrectly fills in gaps on stuff we think we know but haven't really listened to closely...ask a random guitar player to play the intro to johnny b. Goode... or play a bossa nova rhythm and watch what they do with the bass notes...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  13. #62

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    I think it has more impact early in life, even early childhood. I think it's like language -- after ages 9 -11 or so, you're going to have an accent.

    Later, I think it can help with appreciating the feel of an idiom, but it's hard to get rid of the accent.

    Playing along with records may be more effective because it's easier to hear when you're off the groove.

    Practicing Brazilian music by playing along vs. practicing subdivisions are two different things. Brazilian music is not played in precise subdivisions. If you're exactly on the metronome for all beats, you're off the groove. Listening to a lot of music played that way has to help.

  14. #63

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    And jazz is played in precise subdivisions?

    That's the whole point...this music we love is NOT math.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  15. #64
    Subdivisions aren't just "math" either though. I guess I n have just heard too many people approximating rhythms they don't understand at a basic level... Sixteenths for triplets and vice versa. Trying to emulate that "loose laid-back feel" of certain jazz players ....who are just playing triplets or something.

    Many, many real players otherwise, who think jazz is literally about just not playing in time.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    And jazz is played in precise subdivisions?

    That's the whole point...this music we love is NOT math.
    That's right. I think it's more obvious when you try to play a style that you didn't grow up with.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Subdivisions aren't just "math" either though. I guess I n have just heard too many people approximating rhythms they don't understand at a basic level... Sixteenths for triplets and vice versa. Trying to emulate that "loose laid-back feel" of certain jazz players ....who are just playing triplets or something.

    Many, many real players otherwise, who think jazz is literally about just not playing in time.
    I agree with this. Jazz is a lot more locked in than I thought starting out. For instance jazzers play triplets more mathematically and accurately than classical players.

    Is a Bembe pattern math? It kind of is. Are bonritmos’s Ketu codes? Yeah. Mike Longos stuff is all mathematical subdivisions.

    It’s not the aim to get people to be in a ‘maths’ mindset when they play, the idea is to go to the land of ‘oo bla di’, but the structures are there in the music. You do the ritual and magic happens. Summon the genius to take hold of you.

    Most people forget that there was always a link between maths and the mystical. There was this guy, Pythagoras, for instance.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-12-2019 at 05:06 AM.

  18. #67

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    Understanding the Samba groove

    This article contains a graph where the samba rhythm is plotted against time. The accents don't all fall on the metronome click.

    Further, the exact placement of the accents is dependent on tempo. So, it can't be notated, except, theoretically, at a specific tempo.

    I'd argue that it can't be learned from a chart.

    Swing feel, like a ride cymbal beat, is comparable. The beat changes with tempo and with player.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Understanding the Samba groove

    This article contains a graph where the samba rhythm is plotted against time. The accents don't all fall on the metronome click.

    Further, the exact placement of the accents is dependent on tempo. So, it can't be notated, except, theoretically, at a specific tempo.

    I'd argue that it can't be learned from a chart.

    Swing feel, like a ride cymbal beat, is comparable. The beat changes with tempo and with player.
    Maths - sure.

    It still relates to the quarter triplet. Ignoring the third stroke, it's kind of what happens when you morph from a 1/16 1/8 1/16th pattern to a quarter triplet. The upbeat synchronises with the triplet upbeat - look at the graph carefully.

    Like the second bar of the third Surdo pattern, say.

    It's really interesting to me that the guy who wrote the article mentions the African feel of the upbeat, but doesn't mention that 6/8 connection. Perhaps he didn't want to add more info, but it's a good way of feeling it at least for someone starting. Start out with a Oom-cha-cha waltz figure and push the second note slightly early.

    The physical bounce and the lilt in the triplet combine to create the groove. Not saying you can play it based on that understanding (although I find it helps) or that's all there is to it - there's microrhythmic naunces in most forms of music, but there's still maths to it.

    For those of us who did not grow up in Rio, we are going to need help. That classic shaker thing for instance, is a very kinaesthetic way of approximating the basic feel. You can get it good enough to start playing with people who will then refine your feel experientially.

    But it's certainly not 'random' or 'out of time' which I think is how some people feel about jazz phrasing and so on.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-12-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  20. #69

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    TBF and to elucidate what I think there's a way to teach Samba, Cuban music and so on. In US jazz this West African connection was not preserved in the same way as it was in Brazil and Cuba - due to the specific nature of slavery in these different countries, so in Jazz there's a tendency to not have any language to talk about these things.

    As a result, people say thing like 'Billie Holiday sang behind the beat.' You might feel that having listen passively, for instance. That is certainly the effect of her phrasing.

    Well Billie Holiday sang very specific rhythms. Whether you choose to look at them in terms of maths, or internalise them more intuitive way, perhaps by matching the phrasing on record through very active listening, there is nothing random about this.

    You don't have to know what a quarter triplet or a 6/8 on 4/4 polymeter is to learn it - although Wynton Marsalis points this connection in Billie. Wynton should stop being so mathematical about rhythm. Maybe he'd be better at music, lol.

    If this was a drummer's forum, we wouldn't be making this false dichotomy at all. What you start out by counting, you end up feeling. It's like anything in music.

  21. #70

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    I've encountered plenty of rhythms I could feel, but if I started trying to count them, I'd be dead in the water.

    Find the clave in EVERYTHING was the best advice I ever got.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  22. #71

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    Can Rhythm or timeing be learn'd By passieve listening yes, but more so with minds that havent learn'd Bad Rhythm, timeing to begin with

  23. #72

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    Chris'77,

    Two things:

    1. Ya gotta watch the Mike Longo tapes again. All the "theory" is notated out to show the poly rhythm--yes. But, Mike's constant refrain is "don't count- don't use numbers. Listen to the tones. Verbalize the sounds of the rhythm." Interesting concept, the local trumpet player round where I live grew up around those Bebop-a-dop-alus greats. He said that bop tunes didn't have song titles originally. Diz would call out tunes by scatting the rhythms to his band mates. Verbalization.

    2. Both Jeffy B. and me (sounds like a 90s hip hop album) are saying to teach by sound and feel. We're both public school teachers. We may not teach music, but both of our fields require us to break down content as much as possible to make it feasible for our students. That doesn't mean our students are daft (I would never think that), that means ta gotta be as clear as possible. As a future edumacator, be clear and concise. Counting out the rhythm muck up the works when you are initially teaching the rhythm. Hear first, calculate after. Ask any GOOD jazz band director. Heck, I'll ask for you. You can't get any better than where I currently live--man I wish I grew up here!

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Chris'77,

    Two things:

    1. Ya gotta watch the Mike Longo tapes again. All the "theory" is notated out to show the poly rhythm--yes. But, Mike's constant refrain is "don't count- don't use numbers. Listen to the tones. Verbalize the sounds of the rhythm." Interesting concept, the local trumpet player round where I live grew up around those Bebop-a-dop-alus greats. He said that bop tunes didn't have song titles originally. Diz would call out tunes by scatting the rhythms to his band mates. Verbalization
    Have you read his book on Sight reading rhythms? It's brilliant way to go from counting to verbalisation.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Maths - sure.

    It still relates to the quarter triplet. Ignoring the third stroke, it's kind of what happens when you morph from a 1/16 1/8 1/16th pattern to a quarter triplet. The upbeat synchronises with the triplet upbeat - look at the graph carefully.

    Like the second bar of the third Surdo pattern, say.

    It's really interesting to me that the guy who wrote the article mentions the African feel of the upbeat, but doesn't mention that 6/8 connection. Perhaps he didn't want to add more info, but it's a good way of feeling it at least for someone starting. Start out with a Oom-cha-cha waltz figure and push the second note slightly early.

    The physical bounce and the lilt in the triplet combine to create the groove. Not saying you can play it based on that understanding (although I find it helps) or that's all there is to it - there's microrhythmic naunces in most forms of music, but there's still maths to it.

    For those of us who did not grow up in Rio, we are going to need help. That classic shaker thing for instance, is a very kinaesthetic way of approximating the basic feel. You can get it good enough to start playing with people who will then refine your feel experientially.

    But it's certainly not 'random' or 'out of time' which I think is how some people feel about jazz phrasing and so on.
    I want to make sure I understand your point. Are you looking at the fourth accent in the graph and pointing out that it's about a third of the way from the end of the beat? (bearing in mind that it's a graph of one beat).

    The numbers are close. And, that might hold up at vastly different tempi.

    But, the other three accents aren't so straightforward. If I understand it correctly, they would be closer to the metronome at a much higher tempo and further away at a slower tempo. Too, different players may do it differently, and they may all swing.

    In struggling to feel this the Brazilian way, I have ended up with the Little Train That Could. "I THINK I can, I THINK I can". That gets very close and has the advantage of changing with tempo.

    To return to the original point -- a player who wants to get this feel down would be wiser to play along with records than to practice subdivisions with a metronome, IMO.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I want to make sure I understand your point. Are you looking at the fourth accent in the graph and pointing out that it's about a third of the way from the end of the beat? (bearing in mind that it's a graph of one beat).

    The numbers are close. And, that might hold up at vastly different tempi.

    But, the other three accents aren't so straightforward. If I understand it correctly, they would be closer to the metronome at a much higher tempo and further away at a slower tempo. Too, different players may do it differently, and they may all swing.

    In struggling to feel this the Brazilian way, I have ended up with the Little Train That Could. "I THINK I can, I THINK I can". That gets very close and has the advantage of changing with tempo.

    To return to the original point -- a player who wants to get this feel down would be wiser to play along with records than to practice subdivisions with a metronome, IMO.
    Yep, it’s a micro-rhythmic lilt for sure, not on any grid.

    Have you tried mutating a waltz into a samba? It’s quite fun.

  27. #76

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    IF you taught it in a classroom, I'd go sound first and then get everyone to internalize it.

    If everyone knew the basic subdivisions of the measure, I'd have everyone try to figure out the rhythms after they've internalized it.

    Then, you critique it.

    Bare bones, but teaching through eliciting and pure discovery is more effective than teaching through lecture... any subject, any topic--try me (as long as I understand the topic--that's where teaching SPED gets difficult)

    Planning this way... a different story. It's harder to plan a lesson that is authentically student centered than it is to plan one that is lecture based--that's talking from experience.

    But that's a separate thread entirely. I'd be glad to go into it--I know more about teaching than I do about playing jazz (even though I've played jazz longer than I've taught). But that's a needs based thread--I won't do it unless someone is interested... it's a lot of work.
    Last edited by Irez87; 07-12-2019 at 02:43 PM.