Internalizing Changes Using Intervals

[NSJ]

Please let me know if I made any mistakes here . I tried to be comprehensive within the framework of a cycle four pattern using all four diatonic chord tones: the goal is to get from one cord tone to any other cord tone in a cycle for pattern using intervals.

Voice leading TARGETS INTERVALICALLY for lines Cycle 4:

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  • Targeting the R of the next Chord: (i). From the R of the 1st chord: (R to R): go up cycle 4. (j). From the 3rd of the 1st chord (3 to R): Go up a M2 (ii-V7, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi), go up a m2 (V7-I, I-IV . (k) From the 5th of the 1st chord (5 to R): go down a M2 (ii-V7, V7-I, I-IV, iii-vi), go down a m2 (IV-vii, vii-iii). (l). From the 7th of the first chord (7 to R): Go up P5 (ii-V, V-I, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi) OR Go up a b5 (I-IV).
  • Targeting the 3rd of the next chord(a).from the R of the 1st chord (1 to 3) —Go down a minor 3rd (iI-V7, V7-I, I-IV, IV-vii), go down a M3, (vii-iii, iii-vi);(b) from the 3rd of the 1st chord (3 to 3), go down a P5; (iI-V7, V7-I, I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi) (c)from the 5th of the 1st chord (5 to 3) , go up a M2 (iI-V7-, V7-I, I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii) or go up a m2 (iii-vi)(d). From the 7th of the first chord (7 to 3): go down m2 (ii-V, V-I), go down M2 (I-IV,IV-vii, vii-iii,iii-vi)
  • Targeting the 5th of the next chord: (e)from the R of the 1st chord (1 to 5): Stay there (ii-V7, V7-I, I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi). (f)From the 3rd of the 1st chord (3 to 5)— go down a M3 (iI-V7, V7-I, I-IV) OR a m3(IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi).. (g) From the 5th of the 1st chord— (5 to 5) —- go down a P5 (iI-V, V to I, I to IV, IV to vii, vii-iii, iii-vi ). (h). From the 7th of the first chord (7 to 5): Go up a M2 (ii-V, V-I, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi) OR Go up a m2 (I-IV).
  • Targeting the 7th of the next chord:(m)from the R of the 1st chord (1 to 7): Go up m3 (ii-V, vii-iii, iii-vi), go up a M3 (V7-I, I-IV, IV-vii(n). From the 3rd of the 1st chord (3 to 7): stay there (ii-V, V-I, I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi). (o). From the 5th of the 1st chord (5 to 7): down a P5 (ii-V, V-I,I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi). (p). From the 7th of the First Chord (7 to 7): Go up P4 (ii-V, I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi) OR Go up #4 (V-I)

[Jazzstdnt]

Beyond voice leading what is the utility of this? In other words, why all the analysis/memorization of leaps?

[christianm77]

I’m glad I don’t have to any of that

[christianm77]

Seriously there’s probably something in this, but the presentation of something that probably seems quite straightforward in the mind can always end up looking completely indigestible.

I have found that trying to map this stuff is actually surprisingly difficult.

[NSJ]

I’m glad I don’t have to any of that

ha you’re decades into this, a professional player.

This is just a way to understand the fingerboard and find out exactly where the changes are, using intervals. That’s all. Not rocket science.

The point of it is to get to the point where you don’t have to think about any of that . You’re already there. It just means you think about other things .

[NSJ]

Seriously there’s probably something in this, but the presentation of something that probably seems quite straightforward in the mind can always end up looking completely indigestible.

I have found that trying to map this stuff is actually surprisingly difficult.

Yeah I can do it on the guitar, easier, I think if I’m on the root of the V7 chord, where’s the M3 of the I? I think the point of it is to just know this without thinking so you don’t have to go out for a coffee break to figure it out .

Just putting on paper all the basic possibilities, as measured in intervals.

[Jazzstdnt]

I did a cursory read of the OP and it seemed correct although I didn't do a deep dive.

My own two cents about the utility of this is that there are more useful ways to reach the goal:

1. Memorize the fretboard not only by intervals but by absolutes. In other words, a keyboard player knows where C is, and so should we. (and every other note).
2. Learn patterns of single note articulation by progression type in 12 keys (arpeggios, chord outlines, scales - for II-V-Is, Rhythm Changes, Blues, Turnarounds, Cycles, etc).
3. Be able to access any chord tone by step or leap - on the run.

Flashcard drill #1 - #3 above.

And last but certainly not least - know the chords to the songs you are playing and know where all the tones are. Pattern practice (#2 above) only gets you so far. Most songs have exceptions or "surprises" of some kind.

[rpjazzguitar]

I did a cursory read of the OP and it seemed correct although I didn't do a deep dive.

My own two cents about the utility of this is that there are more useful ways to reach the goal:

1. Memorize the fretboard not only by intervals but by absolutes. In other words, a keyboard player knows where C is, and so should we. (and every other note).
2. Learn patterns of single note articulation by progression type in 12 keys (arpeggios, chord outlines, scales - for II-V-Is, Rhythm Changes, Blues, Turnarounds, Cycles, etc).
3. Be able to access any chord tone by step or leap - on the run.

Flashcard drill #1 - #3 above.

And last but certainly not least - know the chords to the songs you are playing and know where all the tones are. Pattern practice (#2 above) only gets you so far. Most songs have an exception or "surprise" of some kind.

This is very similar to my approach, which is based on knowing the notes, by name, in the devices I use, and knowing where they are on the fretboard.

I couldn't follow the OP. I always appreciate an example in the key of C with this sort of thing.

If you know 1) the notes in the chords you use 2) where they are 3) the sound of various intervals, then you can negotiate the chord changes.

I don't really know for certain, but I'm guessing players who learn by patterns get to a similar destination by a different route. I always found working with geometric patterns to be more difficult, although I certainly use some, particularly at high tempo.

[Irez87]

I'll say this quick so it doesn't get annoying.

Memorizing shapes and the architecture of the guitar fretboard is always important.

However, memorizing the sounds of notes against chord progressions and keys (NOT intervals) coupled with an understanding of the fretboard--that's even more important.

Troy Grady once said that improvising on the piano is easier than improvising on the guitar--he was missing the point. The guitar, if you let it, is a true ear instrument. You can play and not know the notes of each line you play, but know the sound and be a killing player. I'm not talking "theory is bad" or "wes didn't know ______ and look at him" type bs. I'm talking players that know the fretboard, but aren't always conscious of the note names--but they are conscious of the note sounds.

My two cents... and I'm out (hopefully that was short enough )

[mr. beaumont]

I just think of everything in terms of movement/static, 4 to 16 bar chunks.

And melody!

Music theory has NOTHING to do with it (well, it does, but I'd NEVER think that way)

[KirkP]

I think it’s useful look at the relative positions of each note in successive chords in the practice room. But it’s much easier for me to internalize it in graphical form than text. One could do it on a music staff, fretboard, keyboard or a chromatic circle.
Here’s my quick take on the latter, showing G7 going to C7:

I can look at this while playing the G7->C7 change on guitar in various voicings, paying attention to how each note in the G7 relates to each note in C7.
This is all relative of course, so I could rotate all the colored spots to form other chords. I’d need to redraw them for other chord types (maj7, maj6, min7, etc.), but that’s easy. (For example: for Gm7->C7, move the 3rd of G one semitone counterclockwise; for G7->Cmaj6, move the b7 of C one semitone counterclockwise.
Is this the sort of practice room activity your OP is aimed at?

[Jazzstdnt]

Looks like you're talking about chords, not lines. If that is the case then there are most definitely more expedient was to master guitar forms...

[NSJ]

Looks like you're talking about chords, not lines. If that is the case then there are most definitely more expedient was to master guitar forms...

no I’m taking about lines that make changes in basic chunks of two chord cycle 4 cadences (ii-V7, V7-I,I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi), using my knowledge of the fingerboard and intervals. If I play the descending three note line- an F down to D (down a m3) which then resolves down to G (down a P5) — (ii-V-I in Eb—root of ii down to the 3rd of Bb7 down to the 3rd of Eb), the above map , which thought of on a four hour cross country flight (because why the hell not, what else am I going to do?), is just a meta collection of how to get from one chord tone to another chord tone. Of course I already know the name of all the notes and so forth on the fingerboard. It’s just another way to internalize how to get from one chord tone to another chord tone. If I’m at the D on the 2nd string and I know I need to go down a perfect fifth to resolve to the third of the tonic, I know exactly where I need to go on the fourth string .

Obviously this is basic practice room stuff. You can dress her up with more notes to make better-fancier lines if you want, as many notes or whatever, just keeping mindful of where of the meaningful chord tones are and how to get there through intervals.

How many songs have a I-IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V7-I progression, at least in part? Or use any portion of those chords in a cycle 4 pattern?

[mr. beaumont]

Everything is V and I/i....

For jazz from the beginning until 1959 or so...

[pauln]

Please let me know if I made any mistakes here.

The thread title looks incorrect; I think it should be: "Externalizing Changes Using Intervals".

Everything is V and I/i....

For jazz from the beginning until 1959 or so...

"I think you should check it again"

[mr. beaumont]

Nope, I'm good

[Jazzstdnt]

no I’m taking about lines that make changes in basic chunks of two chord cycle 4 cadences (ii-V7, V7-I,I-IV, IV-vii, vii-iii, iii-vi), using my knowledge of the fingerboard and intervals. If I play the descending three note line- an F down to D (down a m3) which then resolves down to G (down a P5) — (ii-V-I in Eb—root of ii down to the 3rd of Bb7 down to the 3rd of Eb), the above map , which thought of on a four hour cross country flight (because why the hell not, what else am I going to do?), is just a meta collection of how to get from one chord tone to another chord tone. Of course I already know the name of all the notes and so forth on the fingerboard. It’s just another way to internalize how to get from one chord tone to another chord tone. If I’m at the D on the 2nd string and I know I need to go down a perfect fifth to resolve to the third of the tonic, I know exactly where I need to go on the fourth string .

Obviously this is basic practice room stuff. You can dress her up with more notes to make better-fancier lines if you want, as many notes or whatever, just keeping mindful of where of the meaningful chord tones are and how to get there through intervals.

How many songs have a I-IV-vii-iii-vi-ii-V7-I progression, at least in part? Or use any portion of those chords in a cycle 4 pattern?

Oops, was responding to KirkP. Should have quoted I guess.

[Tal_175]

Here is, I think, a simpler way of saying the same thing. In cycle of 4 progressions, chord tones of the next chord (1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th) correspond to the following;

Degree of the current chord - Degree of the next chord up a forth
4 --------------------------------------> 1
6 --------------------------------------> 3
1 --------------------------------------> 5
3 --------------------------------------> 7

So thinking in the context of the chord in the moment and targeting 6th for the next bar will amount to hitting the 3rd of the next chord etc. You can come from above or below. Ie you can come from the 5th and ascend or come form the 7th and descend to hit the third (6th in the current context).