The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    When I'm improvising I don't have time to think "such and such scale," yet scales help me internalize sequences of notes so that when I'm soloing I have options. These days I'm exploring various applications of melodic minor, lydian dominant being one of them. So when I encounter a dom7#5 I naturally gravitate to whole tone which is available through melodic minor. But I'm not "thinking" fourth mode of melodic minor or whatever. I just want to play a whole tone run and having internalized the sound and mechanics of melodic minor give me the option to play that without thinking about it. As for imagining a line, I'm able to hear things more clearly and can begin to slow them down to the point where I can hear the individual notes. Executing them, though, is another story.
    Yes, one doesn't think 'such and such scale' but one's aware of certain note choices in front of one. Mind you, that must come from previous practice or one wouldn't be aware of them at all.

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  3. #27

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    Pauln, are you talking about George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept?

    I'll go back to my original point--you need to hear the notes, not the scales.

    I'm reposting this video here, I think I had it in the Performance Ear Training Journal:



    Greg Fishman, by the way, is the real deal. If you REALLY want some vocabulary, he has Hip Licks vol. 1 & 2 on his website. That's not the point.

    The point is that you learn how the unique colors of the 7#11 chord sound over the basic triad--one at a time. Jordan Clemons is all about this method of learning new colors/ sounds. Greg Fishman is all about "tasting" these sounds. I'm on the same wavelength--but a little broader. I like to think of these colors operating on the home key. That way, I know exactly how my ear wants to resolve back to the home key.

    For that A7#11 to Abmin6--I would pedal an Ab (and maybe a B natural) WHILE I play A7#11 sounds when I'm practicing in the woodshed (usually on the piano--at first, at least). Chords don't exist in a vacuum. Many of us already understand functional harmonic analysis, like how we analyze all of Autumn Leaves in Gm. Yet when we start our line studies, our melodic concepts, we automatically go back to an isolated chord by chord mentality. I think this needs to be seriously revamped, from the ground up. But, I'm an odd bird.

    That's how I study ear training. All sound operates in the broadest sonic context--the sound of the key. You build all harmony off the sound of the Key. Anything that operates outside of the key does so to create beautiful tension and release--movement. I think Coleman Hawkins said something along the lines of "I play harmonic movement, not chords".

    Let me go in even further. All sound operates within the sound of the key and the pulse of the tune. Notes and scales don't mean shite if you don't know how to use them in respect to the pulse. What happens when I place the #11 on the downbeat (I'm talking chord tones, not key tones--because this might resonate more)? What happens when I place the #11 on the "and" of 1? Where, in the measure, in the phrase, do I resolve my color tones (or altered tones)? How does this rhythmic placement of these altered notes effect the tension of my line? How does the rhythmic placement of my core chord tones effect the resolution of my line? How do I punctuate my line--where do I leave space? That's swing, bebop, hardbop, and beyond. Where we place the notes in time (pulse?) takes primacy over scales.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    No.


    Now...Why do you assume that all others think this way re something as basic as Lydian Dominant? ?
    Who said that?

  5. #29

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    Lot of theory flying around here. Nothing wrong with that, but...

    Just listen to what players do. That'll put everything together, can't recommend it enough really.

  6. #30

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    Common dominant chords that tend to feature a #11

    IV7 --> relates to I minor
    II7 --> relates to VI minor
    bVI7 --> relates to bIII minor (that's an interesting one)
    bVII7 --> relates IV minor

    BTW usually the #11 is featured because it is a diatonic tone - either to the major or related minor keys. This seems to not get mentioned very much...

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Lot of theory flying around here. Nothing wrong with that, but...

    Just listen to what players do. That'll put everything together, can't recommend it enough really.
    Yes, I agree completely. When I first started learning I'd copy or emulate players that resonated with me. Jazz is a different animal than rock, R&B, blues etc. because the changes come so quickly and the chord structures and related harmonies are more advanced. So, on your point, I've been listening to Grant Green for years but I'm still having difficulty negotiating the changes at tempo. He's especially accessible to me because he's a single note player as am I. Kenny Burrell, Wes, Jim Hall, on the other hand, are unattainable for me.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Pauln, are you talking about George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept?
    No, I don't know a thing about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I'll go back to my original point--you need to hear the notes, not the scales.
    I focus primarily on hearing the progression shift harmonies, from which I determine which possible chords, scales, or notes I might play to describe them. I don't name functions, harmonies, chords, scales, or notes; I just recognize the sound of their relationships and do my best to sound like a jazz guitarist.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Common dominant chords that tend to feature a #11

    IV7 --> relates to I minor
    II7 --> relates to VI minor
    bVI7 --> relates to bIII minor (that's an interesting one)
    bVII7 --> relates IV minor

    BTW usually the #11 is featured because it is a diatonic tone - either to the major or related minor keys. This seems to not get mentioned very much...
    I like the bII7 to i minor, since the #11 becomes the b6 of the key.

    Ugh, Chris '77 you're getting wrapped up in this deep theory stuff too. Let's back up, and post actual tunes where there's a secondary dominant that functions as a true #11 harmony. I agree
    that in A Train, that IIdom7 is usually played with a whole tone--but I sometimes play it as a #11. Days of Wine and Roses comes to mind as well, but that's a #11 with a different function. I could post some examples from my Greg Fishman book, but I just played through some and he doesn't specify how they resolve (which is a huge part of making these licks work, at least functional harmony wise--I hate that term)

    So...

    A Train (maybe)

    Days of Wine and Roses

    Lady Bird

    So we could all pick one tune that has clear dominant #11 harmony, isolate the harmonic phrase (not the chord, the phrase), and post recorded examples of what each of us would play using those materials. Ragman almost did that with his post--I liked that he played something instead of rambling like I usually do
    Last edited by Irez87; 06-11-2019 at 05:32 PM.

  10. #34

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    Unfortunately when learning Music Language we get caught up in the technical aspects a bit too much. For me being mostly self taught, I look at Lydian Dominant as being part of Melodic Minor.
    By that I mean it comes from the Melodic Minor parent scale. So I have different arpeggios like a Min9/Maj7 that I've committed to memorize throughput the entire 12 fret fingerboard. i.e. C13#11 would be Gmin9/maj7 arpeggio

    Guitarist Scott Henderson has some lessons on how to use this as well as other arpeggios in interesting ways. Do a Google search.

  11. #35

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    so, no takers on the recorded examples?

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    so, no takers on the recorded examples?
    Here's how Clint Strong gets "the flat 5 sound." (Edit: the video link starts a few seconds early; go to 21:51)



    This isn't really a lydian-dominant-from-melodic-minor demo, but it is a good demo of the fact that you really need only the maj 3, #11 and b7 to get the "lydian dominant" sound. If you hang for a few minutes till he gets to the ensemble demo, you'll hear him throw a variety of color tones into the "vanilla dominant" to great effect.

    Though he does make a point of incorporating his instructional licks into the demo performances, you'll also hear that he improvises very freely and fluidly. Having some memorized vocabulary in your ears and under your fingers lets you avoid having to think too much, freeing you to express yourself. Yet, you don't want to be limited to only certain licks.

    So I think you want to approach this from two directions:
    - get the "lydian dominant sound" into your mind's ear, and learn a lot of ways to find that sound (see ragman's video for an excellent jumpstart)
    - get some good-sounding licks in that vein memorized cold, so that you can then use them as seeds for your own melodic ideas. I think that's what you are trying to do by asking for some recorded examples, and that's a great idea.

    Once you get the theory, the sound and some licks under your belt, your own lydian dominant ideas will grow organically.

    SJ

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    Unfortunately when learning Music Language we get caught up in the technical aspects a bit too much. For me being mostly self taught, I look at Lydian Dominant as being part of Melodic Minor.
    By that I mean it comes from the Melodic Minor parent scale. So I have different arpeggios like a Min9/Maj7 that I've committed to memorize throughput the entire 12 fret fingerboard. i.e. C13#11 would be Gmin9/maj7 arpeggio

    Guitarist Scott Henderson has some lessons on how to use this as well as other arpeggios in interesting ways. Do a Google search.
    I'm self taught and when I began exploring jazz I discovered Lydian Dominant but did not know what it was called... I found it before Melodic Minor, so I have always thought of it backwards - Lydian Dominant as the parent scale of Melodic Minor.

    As a result I play Melodic Minor and its modes like the Altered Scale all the time but never think of them as such; I think of those sounds as modes of Lydian Dominant.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    Yes, I agree completely. When I first started learning I'd copy or emulate players that resonated with me. Jazz is a different animal than rock, R&B, blues etc. because the changes come so quickly and the chord structures and related harmonies are more advanced. So, on your point, I've been listening to Grant Green for years but I'm still having difficulty negotiating the changes at tempo. He's especially accessible to me because he's a single note player as am I. Kenny Burrell, Wes, Jim Hall, on the other hand, are unattainable for me.
    Ah ok, that’s interesting, I would say these players dont use LD so much. Really LD isn’t a sound that’s featured that heavily in bop. You do get it, but not that much.

    If that’s the type of music you want to play I would focus on the minor on dominant approach as it’s the ways those guys seem to think.

    For the LD sound itself I think you have to check out more recent players who grew up with chord scales.

    But you don’t have to learn about LD to be a strong Blue Note style player.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I like the bII7 to i minor, since the #11 becomes the b6 of the key.

    Ugh, Chris '77 you're getting wrapped up in this deep theory stuff too. Let's back up, and post actual tunes where there's a secondary dominant that functions as a true #11 harmony. I agree
    that in A Train, that IIdom7 is usually played with a whole tone--but I sometimes play it as a #11. Days of Wine and Roses comes to mind as well, but that's a #11 with a different function. I could post some examples from my Greg Fishman book, but I just played through some and he doesn't specify how they resolve (which is a huge part of making these licks work, at least functional harmony wise--I hate that term)

    So...

    A Train (maybe)

    Days of Wine and Roses

    Lady Bird

    So we could all pick one tune that has clear dominant #11 harmony, isolate the harmonic phrase (not the chord, the phrase), and post recorded examples of what each of us would play using those materials. Ragman almost did that with his post--I liked that he played something instead of rambling like I usually do
    Limehouse blues - first chord

    The #4 is in the melody
    Chord lasts for four bars
    Tune represented by entire history of jazz
    A genuine non resolving dominant

    I think the 7#11 in DWR is a passing chord - I would probably ignore it for the purposes of blowing .
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-12-2019 at 05:30 AM.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    LD isn’t a sound that’s featured that heavily in bop.
    So what would you do for a line over a 7b5 or #11? Not a triad or arpeggio but a decent line? When I was doing A Train I remember the WTone thing became predictable and a bit bare so I used the Lyd Dom because it gave the right feel to it.

    Also bearing in mind that it's not what one 'does over a chord' that matters so much as the transitioning between one chord and another...

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So what would you do for a line over a 7b5 or #11? Not a triad or arpeggio but a decent line? When I was doing A Train I remember the WTone thing became predictable and a bit bare so I used the Lyd Dom because it gave the right feel to it.

    Also bearing in mind that it's not what one 'does over a chord' that matters so much as the transitioning between one chord and another...
    Parker would often play a standard dominant on 7#11. There are examples of him using the sound (see above) but in general bebop players weren’t concerned about honouring the upper extensions of dominant chords. They played them however they saw fit. See Koko for a good example. Cherokee changes has an Ab7#11 chord. Parker plays Ab dominant/mixolydian every time.

    Conceptually I would stake money on the ‘minor on dominant’ connection (i.e. ii on V) being the source of any #11 sounds. You can hear this in Django, Charlie Christian etc. If you play the major seven on the minor, you obviously get #4 on the dominant.

  18. #42

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    Whole tone is common in Bud Powell

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Cherokee changes has an Ab7#11 chord. Parker plays Ab dominant/mixolydian every time.
    Lazy buggah!

    but Cherokee is very fast so maybe no one noticed

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Lazy buggah!

    but Cherokee is very fast so maybe no one noticed
    Well koko is just blistering

    But I remember Barry Harris saying you could choose whether or not the play the #11 in Cherokee.

    But players got up to all sorts of stuff. Even pianists playing a 9 in one hand a b9 over it.

    Jazz wasn’t the study of chord symbols back then.... and I think bop was more interested in the changes, treating each chord a bit more independently than before. Swing players often took a more key centric, generalised approach on the changes which would actually encourage some more of those 7#11s I guess...

    I suppose bVII7#11 is the most common 7#11 sound in jazz.... it’s so closely related to IVm(maj7) that gives a good way into those sounds. You can hear plenty of examples of this sound in the swing era even...

    On reflection I guess that was what Irez was talking about with respect to Days of Guns and Roses....

  21. #45

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    There’s a good version by the Nikelson trio (Lage Lund on guitar)

  22. #46

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    Well, that was a lotta videos.

    I went through a few versions of A Train coz the 7b5 has two bars and you don't have to wait for it. Most play WT, a few ignore it. Probably doesn't matter.

  23. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ah ok, that’s interesting, I would say these players dont use LD so much. Really LD isn’t a sound that’s featured that heavily in bop. You do get it, but not that much.

    If that’s the type of music you want to play I would focus on the minor on dominant approach as it’s the ways those guys seem to think.

    For the LD sound itself I think you have to check out more recent players who grew up with chord scales.

    But you don’t have to learn about LD to be a strong Blue Note style player.
    Thanks very much for your support and encouragement. I've actually figured out a way to make sense of it, which is to be more motivic. So for example in A Train, the Cmaj7 phrase becomes the template for the D7#11, and perhaps the Dmi7 after that. This approach provides more rhythmic shape and melodic continuity. I can see that shortening my phrases and leaving a little breathing room makes it much easier and more "musical." On reflection I realize that I tended to run on a bit. I'm sure there are other approaches, but at least now I have a concept to work with. Appreciate you! p.s. What, exactly, is minor on dominant approach?

  24. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think you have to be a little careful about enharmony and spellings. #4 or #11 is one thing, b5 is quite another. If I see D7b5 on a chart, I am going to be thinking 'altered' rather than lyd dom.

    OK, so good example Take the A-Train... As far as I can hear from recordings Ellington/Strayhorn did not conceive is this chord as a Lydian Dominant originally (not sure if that was even a thing theoretically in the '40s) but rather a whole tone tonality, which is actually very closely related.

    (The II7 chord does resolve. It resolves to V7. Don't let the IIm7 confuse you, that's just a suspension of V7...)

    So, anyway, I think you have this backwards. The way that I've always found best is to transcribe lines on chords like this and work out what's going on.

    Firstly, going the other way - trying to turn scales into lines, usually does sound contrived unless you already know what you are doing - i.e, can hear it.

    Second reason is that I don't really think there's any point cultivating language over specific chords. It's best to know how to apply the language you've already got in many different harmonic contexts as possible. In the case of 7#11, as with minor chords, or half dim, you need good sounding true minor language.

    By true minor I mean minor key lines that don't accentuate the b7 as a chord tone - i.e. are not based around a m7 tonality, but a minor triadic or m6 tonality. Real jazz lines rarely stick entirely to one scale - but minor key jazz lines that use the 6th and major 7th and minor 7th in combination are pretty common. So you aren't really talking about using 'melodic minor' but a combination minor scale that features notes of the dorian, harmonic and melodic minor. Using the V arpeggio on minor key for instance to get a min(maj7) tonality is a common bebop cliche. Another are line cliches that run 1-7-b7-6.

    Now, if you learn how to do that, you can then put that on a related dominant (ii-V relation.) If I play on a G7 a line based on the Dm version of the Barry Harris '3' phrase, for instance, maybe descending from the 5th to the 3rd by step and then putting a little V arpeggio:

    A' G F A C# E

    On G7, that C# pops right out... So we say - G lydian dominant. But the melodic line is convincingly jazz, which is a separate consideration.

    Another good bop example of this sound are the phrases Parker plays on the D7 and A7 chords of the bridge on Moose the Mooche check 1:05 on.



    So: don't confuse language and harmony. Harmony is what we get when we prominently feature the C# on the G7 (G7#11!) BUT language is that little descending melodic thing that would work equally well on a Dm chord, or a Bm7b5 chord, or a Db7b5 - or even F major to give a lydian augmented sound... Theory is very much concerned with harmony, but rarely gives clues as to language, which is why most teachers advise transcription.

    I think you understand the harmony, but not the language, which is why your lines sound contrived.

    There are ways of going from basic materials into language, but I'll pass over that here.
    I find this all pretty interesting. Reg talks a great deal about related dominant or related ii-V "relationships". It's such a fundamental chord pattern to jazz that you can basically play off of each... over the other in almost any context. At least in a blue note context or g tension/release relationship to the target chord.

    I don't know if it's just a more modern take, but he's more often talking about doing the opposite: using A7#11- Lydian dominant to target Dm- Dorian or vice versa. As opposed to playing "D melodic minor" over A7.

    *************
    Re other posts about tempo and easier to hear, more modern Lydian dominant sounds etc, Jeff's recommendation of Christmas time is hear is a good one. Slow, lots of LD opportunities over multiple chord often, and easy to hear with lots of #11 melody notes as true accented chord tones.

    If you want to woodshed more Lydian Dom over something like A train, for sure sub the bII7#11 for V, just to get more reps on it one fret away from you're II7.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by buduranus2
    Thanks very much for your support and encouragement. I've actually figured out a way to make sense of it, which is to be more motivic. So for example in A Train, the Cmaj7 phrase becomes the template for the D7#11, and perhaps the Dmi7 after that. This approach provides more rhythmic shape and melodic continuity. I can see that shortening my phrases and leaving a little breathing room makes it much easier and more "musical." On reflection I realize that I tended to run on a bit. I'm sure there are other approaches, but at least now I have a concept to work with. Appreciate you! p.s. What, exactly, is minor on dominant approach?
    Just what I described above. So for A Train play Am on D7. As in Am phrases. Hit the major 6th and you have the major third of the dominant. You hear Django doing this in his version of Limehouse above.

    Emphasise the major seventh and you have LD, use the minor and you have a standard dominant sound.

    Obviously D Lyd Dom = A melodic minor, but solo lines aren’t usually that obviously chord scaley unless they are played by Berklee grads like Lage Lund ;-)

    Even b6 sounds good in context.

    Check the music.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I find this all pretty interesting. Reg talks a great deal about related dominant or related ii-V "relationships". It's such a fundamental chord pattern to jazz that you can basically play off of each... over the other in almost any context. At least in a blue note context or g tension/release relationship to the target chord.

    I don't know if it's just a more modern take, but he's more often talking about doing the opposite: using A7#11- Lydian dominant to target Dm- Dorian or vice versa. As opposed to playing "D melodic minor" over A7.

    *************
    Re other posts about tempo and easier to hear, more modern Lydian dominant sounds etc, Jeff's recommendation of Christmas time is hear is a good one. Slow, lots of LD opportunities over multiple chord often, and easy to hear with lots of #11 melody notes as true accented chord tones.

    If you want to woodshed more Lydian Dom over something like A train, for sure sub the bII7#11 for V, just to get more reps on it one fret away from you're II7.
    I would never analyse Regs lines as having anything to do with CST. He doesn’t sound like that type of player. Kurt, 100%, Reg, no.

    That’s the way he thinks harmonically but he plays quite old school language.

    He has his own way of talking about what I just posted above. I think we think quite similarly, I just tend to convert everything to the simplest scale description because I find it easier to deal with. I reckon Reg played the way he does before he went to Berklee and retroactively analysed and developed his approach after taking CST classes.