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How can something so easy be so difficult? I like to have an inventory of canned licks as the basis for true improvisation. But for some reason I can't seem to come up with anything "musical" over a secondary dominant with a b5. Any recommendations, guidance or referrals are greatly appreciated.
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06-09-2019 08:39 AM
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The juice of Lydian dominant is the #4 to nat5 tension/resolution. I think the easiest way to hear things in the beginning is to target the nat5 and use the #4 as the tension resolving up to it, but you can certainly hang out on the #4 once you learn to hear it.
If you're coming from the standpoint of simply trying to transpose mixolydian licks to LD, it sounds crap, because the nat4 behaves very differently. 4-3 is the natural tension/resolution in mixolydian, but in Lydian Dom, it's more about #4-5 tension/resolution.
A great shortcut to expand the tension/resolution relationships is to use the Dom9 a step above as the tension to target the dom9 chord of your 7b5. So C Lydian dominant would be a D9 to C9 tension/resolution.
Watch Reg's videos.
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Originally Posted by buduranus2
Can you give me an example in a tune of a progression you would like to be able to play over?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by buduranus2
OK, so good example Take the A-Train... As far as I can hear from recordings Ellington/Strayhorn did not conceive is this chord as a Lydian Dominant originally (not sure if that was even a thing theoretically in the '40s) but rather a whole tone tonality, which is actually very closely related.
(The II7 chord does resolve. It resolves to V7. Don't let the IIm7 confuse you, that's just a suspension of V7...)
So, anyway, I think you have this backwards. The way that I've always found best is to transcribe lines on chords like this and work out what's going on.
Firstly, going the other way - trying to turn scales into lines, usually does sound contrived unless you already know what you are doing - i.e, can hear it.
Second reason is that I don't really think there's any point cultivating language over specific chords. It's best to know how to apply the language you've already got in many different harmonic contexts as possible. In the case of 7#11, as with minor chords, or half dim, you need good sounding true minor language.
By true minor I mean minor key lines that don't accentuate the b7 as a chord tone - i.e. are not based around a m7 tonality, but a minor triadic or m6 tonality. Real jazz lines rarely stick entirely to one scale - but minor key jazz lines that use the 6th and major 7th and minor 7th in combination are pretty common. So you aren't really talking about using 'melodic minor' but a combination minor scale that features notes of the dorian, harmonic and melodic minor. Using the V arpeggio on minor key for instance to get a min(maj7) tonality is a common bebop cliche. Another are line cliches that run 1-7-b7-6.
Now, if you learn how to do that, you can then put that on a related dominant (ii-V relation.) If I play on a G7 a line based on the Dm version of the Barry Harris '3' phrase, for instance, maybe descending from the 5th to the 3rd by step and then putting a little V arpeggio:
A' G F A C# E
On G7, that C# pops right out... So we say - G lydian dominant. But the melodic line is convincingly jazz, which is a separate consideration.
Another good bop example of this sound are the phrases Parker plays on the D7 and A7 chords of the bridge on Moose the Mooche check 1:05 on.
So: don't confuse language and harmony. Harmony is what we get when we prominently feature the C# on the G7 (G7#11!) BUT language is that little descending melodic thing that would work equally well on a Dm chord, or a Bm7b5 chord, or a Db7b5 - or even F major to give a lydian augmented sound... Theory is very much concerned with harmony, but rarely gives clues as to language, which is why most teachers advise transcription.
I think you understand the harmony, but not the language, which is why your lines sound contrived.
There are ways of going from basic materials into language, but I'll pass over that here.
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I very much appreciate your comprehensive and clear reply. I developed the "linguistic elements" of jazz in the context of jazz-blues, then progressed to rhythm changes, which seems very close to the blues conceptually if not structurally. So that's why my lines over a non-functioning dominant, such as they are, sound contrived. They may be "correct" but they're not "right." As for whole tone over the D7 in A Train, lydian dominant has a nice five note whole tone run landing on the b5/#4. So that's pretty close to what Duke and Strayhorn intended, as you mentioned. Also, as you point out, it's preferable to conform the line to the chord, which is what I do. That is, I'll record and loop a 7b5 chord without meter and then try to play something "musical" over it. Or sometimes I'll record a straight dom7 and play various scales/modes to hear the alterations more starkly. I think it's like you say, that is, it's not just modes of melodic minor etc. but rather a mash-up of scales covering the same harmonic zip code. It occurs to me as I write this that maybe I'm too locked into LD or whatever. I think I'll try to incorporate a chromatic passing tone to keep the chord tones on the strong beats. Not exactly sure where I'll shoehorn that in. Also I'll try the altered scale as well. Might be just what I'm looking for. In closing, my sincerest appreciation for your insights and assistance.
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I find that if what I'm playing is "vanilla" (major, minor, dorian ideas), it is fine to play lines in a more "familiar" way... pieces of the corresponding scales that have no gaps, more melodically linear, starting or ending on their tonics, and similar simplicities that let the lines closely follow or match the harmony. This is what you might call a "cards face up" "full disclosure" kind to playing... easy to hear, easy to transcribe.
However, for lydian dominant (as well as symmetric diminished, augmented, and some others), I find it often sounds better to match the complexity of the harmony by deliberately playing lines and phrases with "secrets and mystery" integral to their composition, using ideas like:
- avoid starting or ending phrases on the tonic
- avoid the tonic when the line passes through it
- skip over notes that reveal too much too directly
- take a more angular approach (zig-zag a little through the notes)
- distinguish/destabilize some notes/lines with either a little more "push" (faster, louder, maybe stronger accents) or a little more "pull back" (slower, softer, weaker dynamics, ghosting the weakest notes, or ghosting the beginning and ending notes of phrases)
- use "enharmonic ambiguity" - note sets that could melodically describe multiple chord harmonies (any of which would sound good at that point, but it is not clear which harmony you might be describing, at least immediately).
Spend some time exploring the relationship between various chords and scales and LD.
- play a sharp nine chord, find the LD that harmonically describes it
- play a ninth chord, a flat five chord, find the descriptive LD
- play any LD and look for the augmented and diminished scales that describe it
Keep in mind that the LD is a chameleon; its scale inversions/modes describe multiple harmonies, which means that its self tonic is shifty with respect to different contexts (its immediate tonic depending on what particular chord harmony it is describing).
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A lot of great advice, so let me try to address your suggestions in order, at least up to the level of my ability. First, I typically aspire to start/end phrases on notes other than the tonic, although sometimes I will if I'm playing a cliche tongue in cheek. I've actually found my playing to be a little too angular at times, overly reliant on arpeggios. Although it sounds OK to me as long as I incorporate more linearity. As for avoiding the tonic when the line passes through it, sometimes I look at the tonic as a quick V7-I if I can get away with it. I like your idea of keeping lines harmonically ambiguous. In this regard, I'd like to get further into fourths. Lastly, if I think of LD as the fourth mode of melodic minor, then I start finding melodic minor in places where I wouldn't necessarily anticipate it. I think maybe this is what you meant about LD being a bit of a chameleon. Many thanks!
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Ask a theory question, you get a theory answer, which you think is the bees knees. It ain't, because it won't un-contrive what you actually play, and what you actually sound like.
If your licks sound contrived then they probably are. That is, they're worked out on some kind of blueprint and then performed to rote. Or, worst scenario, they're generic and applied to any tune regardless. Your words:
I like to have an inventory of canned licks
Lyd Dom is the mixo with a sharp 4 or, more simply put, the minor melodic off the 5th of the dom - i.e. D mel m over G7 or G7 alt.
Just play it is my advice, forget the theory ideas, they'll only make you sound even more contrived. Improv is tightrope walking. Being safe is to be dead.
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Context? Are your lines going somewhere in a purposeful manner? Are your lines being used to create rhythmic phrases? Are you creating with your ear, your fingers or your brain?
Yes I'm asking very general questions about very specific things, but maybe the focus on using an inventory of canned licks obfuscates the sense of purpose to what you play. Why are you playing that line? Where is it going? Where did it come from?
Thinking along the lines of a "progression" actually progressing from a musical thought towards a conclusion might inspire you to phrase differently, with more space and brevity and imagination with which to create movement. That's where using a scale becomes subservient to actually saying something with urgency and intention. This is an entire discipline of practice in itself. Phrase thoughtfully; the qualities of the scale may reveal themselves and impart a living quality this way.
Maybe
David
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Try messing around with a Coltrane 1-2-3-5 pattern a whole step above the Lydian Dominant, so for C7#11 a D shape, giving you the 9th, 3rd, #11 and natural 13
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At first I thought, wait, is having lydian dominant licks a thing? Then I realized that I have one. I use it occasionally and it sounds contrived, at least to me, because I've heard it a lot and, typically, I'm tossing it in mechanically in a high tempo tune where I'm struggling to keep up. Some musicians hate licks in a general way. I remember one teacher yelling, "no licks, make melody!".
Having a "lydian dominant lick" implies that you have a lick you're going to play on a LD chord, no matter what else is going on at the time. I'm aware that great players use licks, but, in my somewhat limited experience talking with great players about this, they never speak of it in this way, even when they admit to using licks. Most will tell you that they don't know what they were thinking when they played a certain thing, and they're being honest. I recall a great player being asked what he was thinking at a particular point in a solo he'd just played. His answer was "I was thinking darker".
So, my answer to the OP question about making LD licks sound less contrived is not to play them. Instead, consider the harmony of the tune and try to make a suitable alternative melody. I think this is done in different ways by different players. But, clearly, some players sing to themselves (you can see Herb Ellis doing it during every solo, for example) and then try to play what they're singing.
I'd suggest picking a tune with an LD chord. Then comp the tune while scat singing. After you sing a line you like, put it onto the guitar. In my hands, this technique produces much better results than thinking about anything in a more theoretical or mathematical way. I know that some great players have put in their time with the math, but I think it's to learn the sounds, not to be thinking about math during a solo.
Licks are a different story. But, a good way to develop licks is to scat sing them and then write them down. That way, they're your own and it gets away from well worn ruts in your muscle memory on the fretboard. It's likely to be more melodic simply because you're singing. If you're committed to playing licks over LD chords you're going to have to surround them with compatible material.
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rp, I agree OVER and OVER again. I used to try and play all the cool licks I knew at jam sessions. That never worked for me, it felt forced. Now I practice on listening "with my ear bent down to the ground" (as pauln would say) to what everyone else is doing, and shape my lines around what's happening on the bandstand. If a lick surfaces within a solo, great--but it has to emerge naturally.
I'm an odd musician. If I were to think of a "lydian dominant" lick--I would think of the context of the chord in the KEY of the song. So, for instance, if I wanted to play an A7 with a sharp eleventh in the key of C major I would think of the A7 as follows:
A -- 6th in C
C# -- b2 in C (#1 makes me nervous)
D# -- b3 in C (or #2, if you're into that kinda thing)
E -- 3rd in C (Lage Lund says the major 3rd is really in with the kids these days)
G -- 5th
B -- 7th
okay, four chord tones and two colors.
Why did I relate it back to C? Well, I'm an odd bird. If you think of all of that in C, you can control how each sound responds to the chord progression. I've already gotten into arguments about how when you play a Dm7b5 with a natural nine in C major, you are actually playing a major 3rd in a minor context--which is incredibly hip and hard to hear (but possible). I know, I know--locrian natural 9 scale... that doesn't help me as much as thinking of that major 3rd against C minor when I am trying to hear it.
If you think of the A7#11 as it relates to, I dunno, Abminor (where it occurs more naturally) you could do:
A -- b2 in Abminor
C# -- 4th in Abminor
D# -- enharmonic 5th of Abminor
E -- b6th of Abminor
G -- natural 7th of Abminor
B -- b3rd of Abminor
Like I said, I'm an odd bird. I am using Contextual Ear Training to reteach myself all the theory I learned 15 years ago. If you practice singinig, like RP said, you'll figure out how lines over the A7#11 work. If all else fails, listen to how pro's solo over the A sections of "A Night in Tunisia"Last edited by Irez87; 06-10-2019 at 07:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
Ok, so now comes the A7#11. If I can hear and feel it I wouldn't be thinking at all. But, maybe I've never played the tune before and the harmony is unusual, so I don't know what it's going to sound like and I have to play something.
First do no harm. No clams. That principle gives me all the chord tones. I'll guess that the bassist is going to hit an A at some point, so I can outline the #11 quality of the chord by including an Eb. That's probably as far as I'd think about it.
A7 is automatic so all I need to think about it how to adjust to the #11. I'd pick the other notes by ear, and if somehow the tonal center was Cmajor, I'd know that I can get the sound of the A7#11 by raising the C a half step to C# and playing the Eb . I also know, without thinking, that I can get some additional consonant tones sort of by thinking "all white keys except C and F".
After that, it's all about the tune, what's happening in the band, and what I played in the preceding bars.
If I was completely bereft of ideas I could go to my one 7#11 lick, but, for A7#11, I'd have to play it at the 11th fret, with a high F#, which might not sound good.
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I can't think of a tune with a VIdom7#11 either, I was just using it as a random color tone. It fits more as a bII7--i progression, you get that b6 sound with the bIIdom7#11 (the #11 is the b6 in the minor key) which is indicative to minor.
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Yep...
Start learning "Christmastime is Here" now...you'll have Lyd Dom nailed by December.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That is what I meant about LD being used to describe multiple different harmonies - with an alert audiation to all that matter what else is going on at the time. The major scales and fingerings are so ingrained into most musicians that they become like water to a fish - they don't think about it, they just know how to move through it. For those that have taken a similar path with LD, it becomes part of the lowest level of harmonic substance, the basis from which other things are produced. Its advantage over major is that it describes and produces so many more jazz harmonies without modification, as direct inversions of the scale, like modes, reallocating the tonic.
They don't know what they were thinking because they were not having to think "this is LD" any more than they were having to think "this is LD with it's local tonic on its particular self scale degree" or "this inversion of the LD is the altered scale". This too they don't think about, just know how to move through it.
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I don't know how others approach this. I do know that great players do it differently.
For me, it's something like this. A fundamental skill for a jazz player is the ability to hear a line in mind and instantly play it, without error. So, in my judgement, a player should be able to play the melody of any song he knows - in any key, starting on any string, any fret, any finger. Some tunes are harder than others, but that's the goal.
So, if you're soloing and you hear, in your mind's ear, a line with a lydian dominant sound, you shouldn't (in this approach, anyway) have to think about the name of the scale or mode or any other verbally mediated approach (that is, using language to think about it). Rather, you imagine a line with that sound, you play it instantly, and, if it's good enough, some jazz student will transcribe it and explain to you what you played.
Anyway, that's how I see the goal. Thinking this way suggests focus on ear training and working on playing melodies as major parts of a practice routine. Traditionally, ear training was done with transcription. That may still be the best way, but I think there's value in any approach that allows you to imagine more sophisticated lines.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
This is a constant, persistent assertion which is just wrong. And it's stated in thread after thread.
When you play major, are you aware that it's major? Do you HAVE to think the words "major scale"? Do you assume that others think the words "major scale"? Are they/you LIMITED by the speed at which they think these words or is it just automatic?
Now...Why do you assume that all others think this way re something as basic as Lydian Dominant? Who said that they HAVE TO "think the words" first? I just don't think that anyone did. It seems like an imagined problem.
I'm not talking about beginners who can't otherwise play either. That's beside the point. But I can play Lydian dominant in multiple positions with multiple arps from melodic minor without any cumbersome thought process, and I'm not even really a jazz player.
Many players are thinking combinations of pitch name, scale degree number, chord degree number, chord Roman numeral, lyrics, the person's name that we almost remember in the back of the room, what's for dinner after...all while actually playing. Labels aren't RESTRICTIVE to things which you already KNOW in a basic way.
It just doesn't work that way. Being able to label something which you know already by ear, kinesthetically or otherwise is a separate issue. Yes, there are people who can also label things which they can't really play as well. But that's beside the point.
Where are these imagined "word thinkers" among real players?Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-11-2019 at 11:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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I’ll just leave this here:
Lydian Dominant Strategies - TrueFire Blog - Guitar Lessons
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading