The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hello everyone! Let's see if we can learn something!

    Let's start by tackling the Introduction and Chapters 1-3 in this section. There are instructions in there to read chapters 26-28 and the conclusion as well. It's light reading and gives us some insight to where we're headed.

    Note that a section isn't necessarily a week long like some study groups. We'll work on it until it seems that most of us are ready to move on. I know some folks are still waiting on their books so we'll start slow and won't leave those folks behind.

    The intro focuses on the 5 patterns of the major scale and the 5 patterns of the minor scale. Let's discuss where everyone is with this to start with. I've deliberately worked to learn one big pattern rather than positions, so I'll need to start thinking of the smaller patterns.

    I doubt we need to spend much time with this material, but if anyone does need some extra time or help with these patterns, please mention that and we can adjust accordingly. Practicing this stuff won't hurt anyone, no matter how advanced they may be.

    Chapter 1 gives a few examples of the difference between key center soloing and chord tone soloing. Again, I expect those differences are what brought us here, so this chapter probably won't take much time for the purposes of this group.

    Chapters 2 and 3 get into the meat of the book and involve organizing arpeggios within the 5 patterns. This will be a little more challenging, but that's why we're here. I think these chapters are where we'll get into posting some videos.

    So let's hear where everyone is with their scale patterns to start with and share some input (help me out) on speed and goals for the group. I would prefer group decisions on that stuff.

    -Ben

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Well, I did say we would start slow...

    I spent some time yesterday and this morning working on the positions. As I said, up until now I've focused on learning the one big pattern instead of the 5 (or 7) smaller ones. It's a little awkward, but I can get used to it.

    I've also focused on arpeggios in major pattern 1, as shown on page 7. I'm not sure if the pattern numbers are standardized or not, but that's not what I would have expected to be 1. What the author calls pattern 4 would seem like it should be 1.

    I'll need to keep working on these arps for a bit to get them under my fingers.

    Anyone else out there?

  4. #3

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    I learned those patterns as CAGED. So the 1st one he has us working on is the C pattern of CAGED. Would a rose by any other name still smell as sweet.

  5. #4

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    True...it's hard to get much sweeter than stacked thirds.

    I never studied the CAGED thing directly but I see those chord shapes in the big pattern. I suppose starting on C makes sense in that respect.

  6. #5

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    As Morroben suggested, I'm listing 10 songs for repertoire.

    Goodbye Pork Pie Hat
    Blue Monk
    Straight No Chaser
    Blue Bossa
    And I Love Her
    500 Miles HIgh
    All Blues
    Topsy
    Autumn Leaves
    How Insensitive
    Bright Size Life
    Cannonball Shuffle
    Last edited by fep; 05-28-2019 at 01:33 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by morroben
    I'm not sure if the pattern numbers are standardized or not,
    I don't think so. Other people use different designations for them.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I don't think so. Other people use different designations for them.
    I like Jimmy Bruno's way. (Mind you, he HATES the term CAGED and wants nothing to do with it.) He calls them the "five fingerings" and each is named for the lowest note in the position / fingering (which will be on the low E string even if the root is on the A string).

    Thus, the fingering of C with the root on the 3rd string of the A string is called 5 because the lowest note in the position is G, the 5th of C.

    May sound odd at first but grows on you. ;o)

    The numbers are 5 (G in the key of C), 6 (A in the key of C) 7 (B in the key of C) 2 (D in the key of C) and 3 (E in the key of C.)

    The same pattern repeats in all keys, though the fingering nearest the nut changes. So if C starts on fingering 5, it goes from there to 6, 7, 2, and 3.
    G starts on fingering 7, then 2, 3, 5, and 6.
    And so on.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    May sound odd at first but grows on you. ;o)
    It does sound odd. I'll have to read through that again with a guitar in my hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Thus, the fingering of C with the root on the 3rd fret of the A string is called 5 because the lowest note in the position is G, the 5th of C.
    So you would be playing that C with your middle finger to end up with the 5 as the lowest note in the position?

    As opposed to the author's #1, where you would be playing that same C with your pinky? In that case the lowest note would be the 3rd (E)?

    So the author's #1 is Jimmy Bruno's 3?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    As Morroben suggested, I'm listing 10 songs for repertoire.
    Great list, Frank!

    I have a notebook of all the jazz tunes that I know relatively well. There are only 10 songs in that notebook, but three of them are on your list. Blue Monk, Blue Bossa, and Autumn Leaves. It's interesting what different people start with when it comes to standards. I think Autumn Leaves was the first lead sheet my teacher gave me. It's a great practice tune.

    Also interesting what people don't start with. I feel like by now I should know There Will Never Be Another You, Stella, etc, but I don't.

    Also cool that you included a Beatles tune. I think I'm going to have a Wailers tune on my list.

  11. #10

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    I went ahead and did a video of playing pentatonic scale over that progression. His instruction, play it and then listen to the track without the baking chords. Can you hear the changes? Sure enough you can't.

    On the video, 1st with a backing track and right after without the backing track.


  12. #11

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    OK, just tried the patterns on P7 after reading the other chapters mentioned. Must be my copy but the print is light and I had to get up close to read those positions. Anyway, felt rather rusty.....nothing I can't follow as I likely had a few of those under my fingers but since I wanted to break out of C, I used F as my root and worked through the 7 shapes intentionally and slowly. Main slow point for me is the alternate picking which Elliot insists on...it's been a perennial weakness so I am addressing it here and using another method just for that (the Conti Precision technique). I have drills to do daily it seems...no bad thing. No 'metromoaning' for me just yet but will get around to it this week as book suggests. Ah, discipline.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben
    Great list, Frank!

    I have a notebook of all the jazz tunes that I know relatively well. There are only 10 songs in that notebook, but three of them are on your list. Blue Monk, Blue Bossa, and Autumn Leaves. It's interesting what different people start with when it comes to standards. I think Autumn Leaves was the first lead sheet my teacher gave me. It's a great practice tune.

    Also interesting what people don't start with. I feel like by now I should know There Will Never Be Another You, Stella, etc, but I don't.

    Also cool that you included a Beatles tune. I think I'm going to have a Wailers tune on my list.
    Truth be told, I've played most of the tunes on the list. I think it's time for a start over for repertoire as I haven't played most of those tunes for many years.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben
    It does sound odd. I'll have to read through that again with a guitar in my hands.


    A short video on Jimmy Bruno's "five fingerings" (which are the same as "CAGED" fingerings but he hates that term.)

    It may seem awkward at first but I find it much more useful than naming them "C" and "A" etc.

  15. #14

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    After spending some time thrilling and delighting my family with pentatonic noodling, I've now spent a couple of days thrilling and delighting them with arpeggio practice.

    I learned the CAGED fingerings as a teenager so I've been quite familiar with these scale positions for some time. However, I haven't spent a lot of time approaching them in terms of arpeggios, so Ch 2 has been a nice challenge, and a different way of thinking after focusing on the minor conversion thing (a la Martino and Fewell) for the past couple of years.

    Here is a quick first take of where I am at with Ch 2:



    I'll probably start digging into the minor ones (Ch 3) soon.

  16. #15

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    I have taken the book out this morning and did a bit of arpeggio practice with that progression that he suggested with a metronome. I may be able to do a video over the weekend. My fingers kind of remembered these arpeggios (except the half diminished that I rarely need these days) but overall it was a bit rusty. I would also consider doing the triads in addition to the 7-arpeggios. I personally don't care about any specific fingering or numbering system.

  17. #16

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    Great stuff guys!

    Mark, that video explained it well. I could see getting used to that numbering system. And I would agree that CAGED never really made sense to me. I guess I never got so married to my cowboy chords to use them as reference shapes. And once you move the C shape, it's not C anymore.

    Anyway, all the numbering and CAGED stuff is semantics. Just find what works best for you.

    I practiced the arpeggios for a bit yesterday and am about to have another little practice session. My folks are in town through today so my schedule is all messed up.

    While I know my one big pattern of the major scale, my knowledge of the arpeggios within there needs a lot of work. I'll make a video later in the week to show where I'm at. I'm definitely not as smooth with them as Jay.

    -Ben

  18. #17

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    I have been revisiting one of the ii-V7-I exercises and this time around, I actually feel as though I am locked in a groundhog day scenario. I am actually developing a contempt for this cycle.

    To help fight boredom, I am practicing different sequences. It also seems to help me remember the shape because I have to change my finger technique, such as rolling the finger over adjacent strings - plus, I love sequences.

  19. #18

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    Here is my video ... it was fun to do but I must admit that I am fairly frustrated how rusty this practice routine felt. Struggles all the way through from timing to technique to remembering the patterns. I'm sure it'll come back with more practice but as AlsoRan said - it is a fight against boredom. For some reason the previous efforts stopped at the point in the book where it should become fun and one plays actual tunes. Maybe this time we'll manage :-)

    I was trying to follow in Fep's lead and started by key center improvising over the chord sequence that Elliot gives us on page 5 and then removed the backing track. Without the backing track I can still hear some of the changes, but a bit later in the sequence it is lost. the harmonized major scale arpeggios I tried in four positions - the assignment was clean alternate picking - it failed. These days, I rarely pick alternate but rather economy or gypsy (the more, the more acoustic the guitar is) - this was neither :-(




    I found an old video which was an impromptu arpeggio study on All of me with crappy camera audio ... guess my arpeggio skills were much better then. IN all fairness the tele is much easier to play than this acoustic archtop that is always fighting me but I guess I couldn't do this presently.


  20. #19

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    Great post Frank67 and slick video. The second video really shows how fluid you became when you spent a lot of time practicing this.

    Like you I want to apply this to other styles of music I'm not that interested in jazz. I aspire to write songs and record tunes... Mark Knopfler, yeah just like that (for those that don't follow Mark Knopfler, he's continued to write songs, has a bunch of albums, and a real good youtube channel. One of my favorites.)

  21. #20

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    That was great Frank67! Really smooth...my early attempts are very choppy.

    Funny how we all seem to dig Mark Knopfler. He was one of my earliest influences and I still love his stuff. He was also one of my inspirations for dropping the pick altogether.

    I definitely love jazz, and my goal with this is to be able to play jazz better, but I'm not a purist and I love a lot of other genres too.

    Question...does the book start working diagonally with multiple patterns later on, like in the 'All of Me' video? Or was that extracurricular? I hope the book does have us start moving around the neck more.

    Back to the practice. Need to work on this stuff and I have my weekly lesson today.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by morroben

    Question...does the book start working diagonally with multiple patterns later on, like in the 'All of Me' video? Or was that extracurricular? I hope the book does have us start moving around the neck more.
    I can't remember, my guess is that was extracurricular. Once we got all the positions practiced it seemed like a logical next step. A lot (all?) of us did that.

  23. #22

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    Thanks so much morroben and fep!

    It was fun doing it. I was swearing and cursing a bit that it wasn‘t better than it is, but it is a motivation to practice again. I found the old videos on „Blue Bossa“, „Round midnight“ and „The nearness of you“ and that is motivation to get back in shape and hopefully take it a step further so that it feels more natural and less constructed. Big dream I guess ....

    Knopfler is one of my all time musical heroes. I just saw him in concert two weeks ago. He is still going strong and has gorgeous tone. The mix wasn‘t good at the concert with the guitar being too loud (never thought I would say that, ha ha). But his playing was great. I feel he got jazzier with time and there was a fair bit of inside/outside in his soloing but in a very tasty way.

    With both Gilmour and Knopfler (and many others) one so sees the arpeggio/chord tone approach and I always feel that sets them apart from the generic noodlers. They will both play pentatonics, but then at the right moment play a few tasty arpeggios and that elevates their solos very much IMHO.

    Anyways, I did not want to digress. .... yes, the diagonal arpeggios in the second clip were extracurricular. I personally often find it easier to change position than to deal with awkward fingerings. For example, the Cmajor 7 arp starting on the A string on fret 3 has an awkward fingering if one stays in that position. The structure is much easier and more logical with shifting, because then one always does two notes per string with a half step on one and three half steps on the next. That is always how I would play in practice and rather than stay in position.

  24. #23
    I worked through a lot of this book several years ago. This is my long-winded take on the connecting game etc. Just my 2c...

    At 11:59, "in one position" should be "in one direction"... Sorry....
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-31-2019 at 04:59 PM.

  25. #24

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    Thanks for the video and advice, Matt. I watched it last night on my phone but I can't type on that thing...I missed that skill set by one generation.

    I read ahead in the book a bit to see the instructions for the random connecting game that you mentioned. It does seem a bit strange. I'm not sure I've ever seen another instance of randomness being encouraged in music education. My teacher is adamant about making everything as musical as you can...even mind-numbing exercises.

    Maybe Elliot is just trying to show the beginner that any of those arpeggio notes will work so they can focus on the changes. For someone that's never tried to make the mental switch from chord to chord, I can see how it might be a helpful exercise for a day or two. Any chord tone works, so you're focused only on making that mental switch. That's a big hurdle for a lot of people.

    I don't think I would ever practice like that. Your suggestion of isolating each iteration sounds like solid advice. And your 3-7 and 7-3 comment is spot on. I'll work on that stuff while the Dodgers game is on, as per your suggestion.

    "It's good for what it's good for."
    I think/hope that particular thing is what I need at the moment.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by morroben
    I read ahead in the book a bit to see the instructions for the random connecting game that you mentioned. It does seem a bit strange. I'm not sure I've ever seen another instance of randomness being encouraged in music education. My teacher is adamant about making everything as musical as you can...even mind-numbing exercises.

    Maybe Elliot is just trying to show the beginner that any of those arpeggio notes will work so they can focus on the changes. For someone that's never tried to make the mental switch from chord to chord, I can see how it might be a helpful exercise for a day or two. Any chord tone works, so you're focused only on making that mental switch. That's a big hurdle for a lot of people.
    Yeah. To be clear, I'm not saying he's wrong or something. I just found that there was a quicker way to get to that second step for me personally.

    When I started, it was basically two steps:
    1. Learn the individual arpeggio patterns and then...
    2. Combine them in the connecting game , transitioning wherever you happen to arrive at the end of the previous arpeggio.

    Prior to my extra step approach, when I hit snags or got into a mental fog, I'd basically just take things back to step one, slow down to a crawl, state the pattern over, take a break for a while etc etc. My extra thing eventually just gave me an earlier and easier intervention.

    I'd look at my exercise as kind of a step 1A type exercise - a kind of an in-between step. For me personally, I save time in the long run if I stop for a short period of time and sharpen the saw. I do this type of thing with a lot of things, and it's really just personal preference. Out may not be for most people.

    Elliott's eventual goal with the connecting game is a very good one. One of the best things I ever learned.