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I just started looking into Bebop scales. Do you all employ them very often? Is it worthwhile to get down? Also, since it seems that their strength lays in having each downbeat be a chord tone, should I be practicing them for the most part straight up and down? When I practice other scales I almost never keep it straight, just to make it more musical, but it seems like in the case of bebop scales it would just through off the chord tones on down beats.....?
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12-15-2009 08:28 PM
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Hey Fractal:
I have just started to get into Bebop scales myself here recently....there is definitely a formula to playing those scales to make them come out right. You may have seen this...Here is a good starting point PDF I found from the Mark Warnock site.
I also have started to play some Charlie PArker heads to Blues tunes that really help with the phrasing and timing..critical if you want to get the sound right. Blues for Alice, Au Privave and Billie's Bounce are three good ones to start off with...
David Baker has three great books on how to play bebop...no guitar tabs but he really explains what they are and how to use them as well as 100's of examples....
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I just spent a while looking over that. So if you are working just with the 4 2 beat phrases he gave at the beginning and it is the original vanilla chord change sequence than you apply those phrases all to the original key center.
I got confused with the reasoning behind the new chunks when he added in a substitution. Should those 2 beat sections corresponding to the substitutions be thought of in terms of the substitution or the original key of C? The added parts don't fit either of the 4 patterns he starts with in relation to the substitute chord they are functioning with. ie, when he adds the Db7 the 2 beat phrase over it is a 1 1b 7 1 in terms of Db7
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I could not figure it out either....it looked like he was using the 5 b5 4 5 pattern which suggests a V in Gbmaj for the Db7, then either the 4 2 #2 3 for the Ab7 i.e. the IV in Dbmaj or the 1 6 #6 7 i.e. the I in Gbmaj again, then the 5 b5 4 5 for the Bb7 i.e. the V of Ebmaj.....
I have no idea....maybe someone out there can explain this?
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Bebop scales are boring
There is so much other stuff to learn that has more relevancy to what's happening lately.
My guitar teacher at college made a very brilliant observation when he told me that he couldn't understand why all the ensembles were working on all the old tunes instead of what was happening right now (back then).
That was 1976. So we worked on tunes from Light as a Feather (Chick Corea) Some John McLaughlin Stuff, odd time signatures and all that wonderful fusion stuff from the early '70s as well as the standards .
Plus all kinds of interesting 'concepts' other than plain old scales.
Happily he wasn't the only one who thought that. If you were lucky to be put in an ensemble mentored/headed by Rufus Reid or Dave Samuels you were golden. You got things like Dolphin Dance, and reharmonized standards with modernnized changes rather than just ii-V's.
So I'm going to advise you to start with the major scale system. After that the Harmonic minor then Melodic minor. Learn the scale, intrvals, all it's modes, arpeggios and 13th chord (1 3 5 7 9 11 13 1).
Leave the bebop scales for later when you're bored
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But it depends what you want out of your own jazz studies. Personally, I'm not looking to 'push any boundaries' of music, and my main goal at the moment is to play in a similar vein to the bebop masters of yore. So for me, and probably for many others, it makes sense to just focus on what was relevent back then.
Originally Posted by JohnW400
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Bebop scales boring? Not modern enough?
That's probably true, but.... for us lesser gods if find them very useful and fun to play. I am not a pro player, so I play for fun and I don't need to be original or push the borders of modern guitarplaying
I consider them a handy tool, especially the mixolydian bebop scale (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 8) and the major bebop scale (1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 8) to ad some chromatism to my playing, but not 'random' chromatism (like some guys do when playing a pentatonic scale for example and just fill up all the spaces between the scaletones with chromatic notes - that's cheating).
The purpose is to add a note to the scale so that the 'good' sounding notes fall on the right beat (2 and 4) when you play eights.
So when I see a 7th chord - or any other chord that can be replaced by it - I can pull out my bebop scale. Gives me good material and ideas for my soloing.
Nice lines are to go up with an (altered or not) arpeggio and go down with the bebop scale.
Sometimes I also combine both the mixo- and major bebopscale: 8 7 b7 6 5 4 3 b3 2 1.
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Sounds great over a Major 7 or even better on a Major 6/9 though lol! Originally Posted by Little Jay
I believe its called the "Extended Blues Scale" or its "Major extended blues scale" counterpart!
Heres somthing to think of!
the mixolydian bebop scale (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 8) gives Major 7 and Dominant 7!
the major bebop scale (1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 8) gives major and minor
So if I have a piano player constantly subbing maj7's with dom 7's or even switching Maj to Min on me? Then these babies always come through!
I think?
Eddie
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bebop scales and motifs and devices are a great stepping stone to later periods of Jazz. Even the best "modern" players have always had that stuff down and sometimes even used it.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all the bebop scales just adding a chromatic passing tone to some 7 notes scale like adding a natural 7th to the mixolydian mode?
I'm sorry but it doesn't sound like something that you would need to spend a lot of time working on. Once you know how to build one, well.... time to move on to another scale.
And even if all you want to do is play bebop, that's fine. But this scale was not the only thing going on. Those guys used other devices to solo with as well.
The thing I like about bebop is the head, not the solo. Most of those heads are trick enough. Learn enough of them and you got most of the vocabulary you need right there.
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This is where I get really confused? I play a ton of scales that don't have any name? There things that I have just sort of invented over the years! I have named one in particular my "Harmelodic" Minor which I love! But John is right! I see the chord and sort of superimpose my weirdness over the top of it! I also have my "Melodic Demented" scale which sounds awesome! When I type these into my guitar scales chords finder it just gives me ??? But I like them!
Probably the same for the first cat to rip out a bebop scale before it had a name! These days the only rule I follow is to resolve it nicely!
Sorry for sounding crazy! I AM!
Eddie
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I think you are right on all counts here. Parker heads are really a gold mine of licks, and all you really need if you want to play bop. Being able to play tunes like Donna Lee up to speed are certainly a right of passage, and point to a certain level of accomplishment. Originally Posted by JohnW400
Being able to then employ those same licks during the solo portion is another phase of development, at least from where I am sitting.
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Well I guess with that line of thinking....if a Bebop scale is just adding a chromatic note , a melodic minor is just adding a minor third to a major scale... how boring...
My interst in Bebop scales is for me the next step in applying ii-V ideas in a song. Its actually the substitutions that are being played that make it interesting..to me anyway. I think it is the natural transition to move one's playing from melody focused to chord focused....or from Charlie Christian to Wes to Jim Hall...
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Actually it's flating the 3rd Originally Posted by bass2man
Well I guess with that line of thinking....if a Bebop scale is just adding a chromatic note , a melodic minor is just adding a minor third to a major scale... how boring...
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Honestly, 2 and a 1/2 years at University studying jazz and I never heard of a bebop scale until I was reading some scale book years later.
I think this scale actually came to be as a result of somebody over anylizing Parker solos and didn't know enough to just cal it a chromatic passing tone.
But thats just me. Please do not let my opinion sway you in anyway. If you're diggin this scale and it helps you see things better in the world of music than thats a good thing.
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These are 2 scales that Barry Harris teaches.
C D E F G Ab A B C
He refers to this one as the major 6 diminished scale. It is Cma6 + Ddim
C D Eb F G Ab A B C
He refers to this one as the minor 6 diminished scale. It is Cm6 + Ddim
I also like to view the first as a combo of a major and harmonic major scale and the second as a combo of a melodic minor and harmonic minor scale.
The addition of one note greatly increases the harmonic possibilities from the now unified larger structure.
Ab can also be viewed as a passing tone. Each view steers us towards a different musical result.
I think it is good to codify methods of using passing chromatics while maintaining the color of certain modes.
Bebop scales address this.
I hate the notion that chord tones should land only on downbeats. I think strong beats occur wherever we place our accents
and suspensions and tension tones can also be played on downbeats. Sometimes educators create guidelines to help get us into the musical ballpark. In this regard they are very helpful. I believe it is a mistake to believe they are anything more than a starter simplification.
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Randall,
Of course you know my comment was meant to be humorous.
Now that you mention the name I think it was in one of his books that I came across the term. Still, back in 1976 at William Paterson College , not one of my teachers or professors metioned 'bebop scales' . Some of those teachers are/were some heavy weights.
Bako,
Rick Stone did an article for JJG magazine a few years back where he went into the harmony. From what I remember it looked like alternating C6 to Ddim but since C6 is also Ami7, it also was Ami7 to E7b9 like Wes used to do on a lot of his chord solos (i-V). When you go to the minor version you get Ami7b5 to E7b9.
This progression is also in one of the Mel Bay books as an excercise where you start off with an Ami7 on the first 4 strings and work your way up the neck alternating Ami7-E7b9.
Again, all I'm saying is don't get hung up on this scale as 'THE' scale to play bop. There are other scale systems that will give you more 'bang for the buck' then to spend too much time with bebop scales.
Just remember that you can make any 7 note scale a bebop style scale by adding a chromatic passing tone between the whole steps.
Here's my choice. The Jazz minor bop scale
A B C D D# E F# G# A
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Did anybody else check out that pdf bass2man posted? That seemed like it took the idea behind bebop scales and made it musical. What I mean is that it distilled it down that by adding a chromatic note there is general way to get between the half steps in a scale and the whole steps. Would you say this is not a good way of looking at it?
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Hey John...you are right about the melodic minor flatting the third not adding it...poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you 100% that it seems like folks try to overanaylize and create a "scale for this chord" formula....Not having the benefit of having studied jazz in a formal setting, I just try to get the theory behind some of these scales. Having played Bass for 30 years, I am trying to make the transition to thinking more like a guitarist...I am little by little spending a lot more time learning the language of jazz guitar than worring about what scale, which is I think what you are telling me..
Thanks for your insight!!
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Fractal:
I email Matt warnock and this is his response:
Hey,
The pattern that I use over Db7 and Bb7 contains the same intervals, it's basically the same riff just transposed to each key. The intervals it uses are R, 7, b7, R. So it is using the bebop scale for each of those chords, Db7 and Bb7, to outline that particular chord substitution. For the Ab7 chord I used the pattern b7, 5, #5, 6 to outline that chord. The cool thing is that the 6th of Ab7, F, is the same note as the b7 of the next chord, G7, so it helps tie those two chords together.
Hope that helps clear things up,
Matt
Another pattern... :0
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imho.
I love discussions like this; healthy evidence of many different, compatible approaches to the fundamentals of making Music with a guitar. Years before I heard of an entity called 'the Be-Bop scale' I was looking for an approach to improvisation that would free me from the 'mechanical' aspects of playing over changes. My primary teacher has always been the library, and there I found George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization. (George Russell).
I can't recommend this book highly enough. Fractal's original post is answered at a level that Matt's fine pdf does not even hint at in this book. I started looking for alternatives after I heard McLaughlin for the first time and realized how little I really knew about music. Even after buying John's book of scores, and with a good understanding of modal theory, it never 'clicked' for me. Then I checked Russell's book out of the library, and it all fell into place. I hope it works for you too. But, if it doesn't, there are so many other excellent suggestions in this thread I'm sure one will either work or point you to something else that does.
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....btw there are many excellent sources for scale/chord compatabilty - all the best search engines will take u there but the library will not throw tracking cookies at you or charge you for the effort of learning!
Last edited by JimBobWay; 12-18-2009 at 12:32 AM. Reason: Quick update
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That was one of the most usefulbooks I've ever owned. Buy the book, Buy the CD's. Learn the heads, even if you can't play them at 420 bpm Originally Posted by JimBobWay
Here's some of what I learned from that book:
Cross picking
Playing in odd time signatures.
Harmony using compound intervals other than 3rds or 4ths.
Lesser known scales
And I transcibed some of the scores using Sibelius which forced me to learn more about the program such as writing drum parts.
Jean Luc Ponty also had a book out, same format. Covered 3 of his albums.
BTW, Lotus On Irish Streams makes a nice chord melody.
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i think of be bop scales as a means of putting a passing tone between each chord tone so when you play up or down it the chord tones land on either strong or weak beats consistantly. the addition of the chromatic tone determines the "chord tones" you wish to highlight.
this arrises from the 2nd that will result between two notes in a 7th chord.
for example, playing the "major be-bop" scale mentioned above starting on the 7th would yeild 7,9,3,5
the "be-bop scale" yeilds 7,1,3,5
I tend to think in terms of chromatic passing tones most of the time though.
or you can just play your guitar and name the scales whatever you want.
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Fractal, I have the fortune of knowing Bob Conti personally, and I've actually played with the man (yes, the Youtube video of him schooling my ass is still up there, but cut in half) When I first met him, I told him of where I have studied, UNT, American School of Modern Music in Paris, ect. His response "so you just learned modes?" He is a big opponent of theory and scale knowledge, and if you listen to him, LIKE alot of "bebop players" they don't use space like Jim Hall, they don't use call and response or clever theme and variations like Wes and Grant did. Bebop guys like Conti (and I'm not knocking the guy, he's a great player and a good friend) over-use these bebop "scales" and what happens is they tend to be blazing fast, as the added tones to any scale can extend a line into perpetuation, but they tend to be boring. Bebop lines, quotes and cliches are great, but not when you become a boring linear player. That's just my opinion
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