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  1. #1

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    ok everyone, isnt it time to start the brazilian samba guitar improvisation thread ?

    ive got lots to bring in , but, i want to start with this , danial santiago is just killing a difinitive aproach to samba on the guitar accompanying the fire bandolim of hamilton de holanda. that is the first thing, there is a heavy family of string instruments in brazil .

    danial santiago is doing the cutting edge rio de janeiro aproach to samba.

    you have to look at chorinho to get the depth of the string instruments in samba in brazil, but, ive heard there are 42 or so differant rhythmic strums in chorinho and it is the blue print for aproaches in samba

    but, danial is doing the aproach that was all over the streets of rio when i got there , with the anticipation thing happening

    there is a samba that comes in on the one , and, outside of brazil, this is the more popular aproach, but the anticipation was the cutting edge when i got to rio in 86, and many of the origins in candomble ( the hand drums of candodomble angola have a big inflence with some things in ketu too, but, candomble angola has many roots, and the folk origins of samba are in bahia.you have samba de caboclo from candomble, samba de roda from folkloric beats and dances and they evolved a samba that uses percusion in bloco afro that is really think and bottom heavy.

    but, rio is to samba what new york is to jazz, it started in new orleans ,went to chicago and then cutting edge new york, same with samba, starts in bahia and gets cutting edge in rio

    samba is enormous, has as many era innovations as jazz and the old styles clash with the new

    i can tell you, most people outside of brazil , are getting the equivalant of as if they only were hearing the cool school of jazz like that is what jazz is suposed to be. samba is afro brazilian culture and its most potent forms come from the favelas and hills , the afro descendant communities and the dance is as important as anything. you wont know samba if you dont know what the dance looks like and how it fits. bossa nova is samba...

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  3. #2

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    It's a bit frantic :-)

  4. #3
    Yes, it might be against the grain of what an impression of rio samba would be.

    But this is closer to the to the edge of what rio samba is. The bateria of the escolas are the most dominant force in rio. It's hard to ignore . It starts seeping into your consciousness , you go in a samba club and the bass is turned up on the recorded music and the surdo is like a black hole on the two , the cavaquinhos , the small string instrument , the size of a ukulele , driving the anticipation of the one...

    its not the " do, dado, dado , dado" they told us it was...

    and then the passistas come out, the most beautiful ballerinas anywhere. Doing the most incredibly impossible dance step in fast motion with so much grace and entwined to the beat, and it's fast and extremely frenetic.

    and these guys are capturing that without drum or percusion.

    remember, this isn't linear complicated lines , difficult chart, it's easy enough to see , I bet you could ride groove with just a little attention.

    then , look for your favorite bossa tune that has an anticipated one and try the chord progression with that concept.really using that groove , but bossa tempo....this a tip to anyone doing gigs you play bossas, the tune with an anticipated one in the melody, do this guys approach in the chords all the way through...a ghost of a tropical breeze might hit you for a second because you will be close to a rio feeling

  5. #4


    lets try this :

    the guitar starts at 3:00 . It's luizao Maia , who is the legendary innovating samba bass player. He over dubbed guitar.

    i peeped so much listening to him on bass about the deep real rio sound I wanted so much. This recording was an education for me. And he is rio, the quintessential rio musician , plays sete cordas in the escolas, he passed away a while back, I miss him , but, check his guitar thing, it's not Segovia , but it's all you need to see the fundimental guitar of rio samba.

    you will have to wade through the queen of samba , Elza Soares , and my recently deceased music partner , Paulo Russo , he is high legal accoustic bass samba from rio, and Gilson Peranzzetta in the final

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post


    lets try this :

    the guitar starts at 3:00 . It's luizao Maia , who is the legendary innovating samba bass player. He over dubbed guitar.

    i peeped so much listening to him on bass about the deep real rio sound I wanted so much. This recording was an education for me. And he is rio, the quintessential rio musician , plays sete cordas in the escolas, he passed away a while back, I miss him , but, check his guitar thing, it's not Segovia , but it's all you need to see the fundimental guitar of rio samba.

    you will have to wade through the queen of samba , Elza Soares , and my recently deceased music partner , Paulo Russo , he is high legal accoustic bass samba from rio, and Gilson Peranzzetta in the final
    Thanks for posting this! Just terrific. And you can hear all the parts you need. So, in this case, at around 3:20, you hear the guitar playing the basic tamborim pattern without creating a sound on every 16th (which the guitarist backing up Hamilton De Hollanda was doing, with a combination of the thumb and various fingers). The pandeiro and tamborim drum fill in the blanks. That's the Brazilian feel -- or, at least, one important one.

  7. #6

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  8. #7
    Nice kriss , Jim hall is good. I see it's airto on drums and percusion He certainly brings authenticity to that date. It is an older style, it's sounds like a samba coming in on the down beat.and it really swings. I wish I could go back in time and be in rio in the 50s and 60s, the music was progressing powerfully , airto represents that energy. Heck I wish I could be in New York in the 50s and 60s too

    thanks. Rpjazz, you are right the accent on that style is going for the tambourine , anticipating the one, and you are right it is one kind of style of samba guitar. The chorinhos show many different strum approaches and luizao is a definitive rio musician.

    this clip shows my deep rio influence , including how deep the dance affects me and how powerful the dance affects the beat. The artist with luizao is two time billboard wold music charting artist, edi Machado

  9. #8


    im continuing with a rio theme here, showing the heavy luizao influence on bass of Diogo brown , with phill fest on guitar, who is son of the late great manfredo fest. And showing the dance that influences this music. Phill kind of hits the rio thing but has other influences. Diogo is from Niterói/ rio so he is coming powerfully from that sound.

    i think the rio aproach for me means you hit that anticipated one thing like the tambourine, as rj noted, with surdo style bass and lay into that hard from beginning until end, like Diogo is doing.

    some people call that style " partido alto" , but it slips back and forth, the regular samba in rio also comes from that surdo feel too.

    im counting on you all to bring in other great Brazil style sambas, there are lots of approaches

  10. #9


    this is some really quality rio samba by paulino da viola , whos father played with jacob do bandolim so he has real samba pedigree

    this is a gentle beautiful song and they keep the groove perking underneath so it never gets too airy or fluffy. i like to push bossas into this feel

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post


    this is some really quality rio samba by paulino da viola , whos father played with jacob do bandolim so he has real samba pedigree

    this is a gentle beautiful song and they keep the groove perking underneath so it never gets too airy or fluffy. i like to push bossas into this feel
    That's nice. There's a style of samba where every bit of space is taken up, and it all meshes and grooves. Then there's another style where it seems like the players are barely touching their instruments -- and the groove is deep. This one is in between -- with the drum playing all the 16ths while the guitar and accordion are sparser. So, it doesn't sound that hard to do, until you try to do it with the same feel.

  12. #11


    before i start bringing in people i havent met or played with , which is quite a few , and there are more ive played with who i want to show but arnt known , id like to show something i think all guitar players around the world and outside of rio in brazil should listen to , if they are interested in playing authentic samba.

    as a guy who has been interested in samba pretty much all my life , since i saw black orpheus at 11 years old , was in the first airto flora copy band in chicago , was a staunch jazz samba player etc i never actualy dreamed i would get to brazil and live in rio for 6 years at first then other places, and the luck to fall in with some of their top players on my first gig there , i can say this is the predominant rio de janeiro samba feel that everyone should at least understand before they want to play variations . this isnt the rich chorinho history , which by all means needs to be checked out and ill bring something in eventualy, but , this is samba from the favela , the roots, where most of the people who live and breath samba year round come from.

    its on cavaclinho , but all guitars should check out the cadence and cop it on guitar...or at least that is exactly what i would do if i wanted to play samba /bossa guitar

    the phrasing of the vocal is where it is at for samba, what a delivery! and the call responce . i couldnt find my favorite bezzera da silva cut , but, you dont have to look far in his musics to find another one that has these fundimentals

    i love all kinds of samba , but , i know this is the roots, id like nothing more than to be in there with a repique de mao hitting with this

  13. #12


    i thought one of you would bring in yamandu costa

    have you heard this guy?

    he would be the high technique accoustic guitar aproach to samba with great knowledge of the history

  14. #13

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    Yamandu is an absolute monster player.

  15. #14
    rp , glad you like yamandu , did the bezzera da silva clip have anything that you could relate to?



    before i bring in anything about chorinho ,here is what anyone who has any interest in samba should check out. whether light airy bossa or jazz samba, its great to see what the inspiration we are all shooting for. at least this is what popular samba in rio looks like . that is samba of the people of rio



    lo and behold , here is a video class about how to play the cavaquinho ( i misspelled it before), to these escola de samba rhythms. looks like he is catching the anticipation with the up beat of the strum . sure,lots of sambas from chorinho have all kinds of strum , on the one, anticipating, the upbeat after the one etc, but, the rio streets seem to be anticipating the one more than not

    like i said, if i wanted to really learn samba guitar, i would be all up into what the cavaquinho is playing to the escola and translate it to guitar

    after i got this down, then i would go into how to air it out and get into the elite harmonic sambas and bossas that are around

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    rp , glad you like yamandu , did the bezzera da silva clip have anything that you could relate to?
    That style is what I think of as Pagode. Is that what you'd call it?

    I like Pagode, although most of what I've heard is Grupo Fundo De Quintal players.

    It's a good foundation to have to be able to play samba based jazz.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    rp , glad you like yamandu , did the bezzera da silva clip have anything that you could relate to?



    before i bring in anything about chorinho ,here is what anyone who has any interest in samba should check out. whether light airy bossa or jazz samba, its great to see what the inspiration we are all shooting for. at least this is what popular samba in rio looks like . that is samba of the people of rio



    lo and behold , here is a video class about how to play the cavaquinho ( i misspelled it before), to these escola de samba rhythms. looks like he is catching the anticipation with the up beat of the strum . sure,lots of sambas from chorinho have all kinds of strum , on the one, anticipating, the upbeat after the one etc, but, the rio streets seem to be anticipating the one more than not

    like i said, if i wanted to really learn samba guitar, i would be all up into what the cavaquinho is playing to the escola and translate it to guitar

    after i got this down, then i would go into how to air it out and get into the elite harmonic sambas and bossas that are around
    Cavaquinho’s a different technique to Brazilian guitar, as you use a pick, so my experience has been one doesn’t feed into the other as much as you’d think.

    So my rhythm when I play finger style Brazilian guitar is a lot better/less bad than my rhythm for cavaquinho. The instrument isn’t too bad from
    a notes POV- like top four strings with the top string down a tone.

    I think it would be handy to work on cavaquinho for playing ensemble parts with a pick (I often want to do that) and also for its own sake. It’s a cool instrument.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    rp , glad you like yamandu , did the bezzera da silva clip have anything that you could relate to?



    before i bring in anything about chorinho ,here is what anyone who has any interest in samba should check out. whether light airy bossa or jazz samba, its great to see what the inspiration we are all shooting for. at least this is what popular samba in rio looks like . that is samba of the people of rio



    lo and behold , here is a video class about how to play the cavaquinho ( i misspelled it before), to these escola de samba rhythms. looks like he is catching the anticipation with the up beat of the strum . sure,lots of sambas from chorinho have all kinds of strum , on the one, anticipating, the upbeat after the one etc, but, the rio streets seem to be anticipating the one more than not

    like i said, if i wanted to really learn samba guitar, i would be all up into what the cavaquinho is playing to the escola and translate it to guitar

    after i got this down, then i would go into how to air it out and get into the elite harmonic sambas and bossas that are around
    Nailing this would have to be good for your time. Like a lot of Samba technique, you can hear the 16th note pulse and all the accents in the same part. Add a rebolo or similar for a low drum part, and a singer, and it's a band.

  19. #18
    definitly , rp jazz, and , i have put up a lot of stuff leaning heavily towards that rio sound. like the tamborim patern you mentioned. by the way , that patern has a name , telecoteco , it is one of several cadences the tamborim has. and, i think the sao paulo drummers you played with, have a differant feel than rio, like you said they said, every city has its own aproach.

    you all have to forgive the fact im going to bring in a couple of youtubes in portuguese, one about some of the originators of chorinho, and the other a docu on tia ciata , who came to rio from bahia and had a condomble house and pixinghinho would play at the bar in this house. its no accident that there are candomble angola beats and codes all in samba , chorinho , bossa , pagode , etc ,all the movements samba has produced. candomble angola is played more with the hands than sticks as in ketu.


    there is narration in portuguese but you can see these artists in this lost film of them.


    this is long and in portuguese so this is only for people who really want to go deeper into the history .just check out the pictures on this docu of tia ciata to get the flavor of how samba was born . but, you dont have to see this to know that tia ciata had a house of candomble and it was a gathering place for various activities

    then , ill bring in one of the last posts ill do on jacob do bandolim. he is the great bandolim player who would have guitar do sete cordas and really evolved a lot on the aproach to string instrument family playing in the samba chorinho developement

  20. #19
    christian , i just saw your post , i totaly agree with what you are saying, but what about if someone uses a pick on electric guitar? its something they could go for

    on accoustic, or jazz finger style, i would just go for getting the syncopation. figuring how to do that syncopation with your technique on accoustic or electric

    rp jazz noticed luizao was catching that in a more simple way on accoustic. he is a bass player so his technique is simple but he is the rio feeling

  21. #20
    the other thing ,christian, if you see the danial santiago first clip i brought in first, that would be the aproach on accoustic guitar...

    so yes, the cavaquinho is doing it his way , and the accoustic guitar has his way, this rio sound aproaching hard on the anticipation ( but older styles come in on the one , from rio also) , they are implying this tamborim cadence against the surdo bass on the 2

    other surdos play an answering cadence but the biggest surdo is on the 2

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    the other thing ,christian, if you see the danial santiago first clip i brought in first, that would be the aproach on accoustic guitar...

    so yes, the cavaquinho is doing it his way , and the accoustic guitar has his way, this rio sound aproaching hard on the anticipation ( but older styles come in on the one , from rio also) , they are implying this tamborim cadence against the surdo bass on the 2

    other surdos play an answering cadence but the biggest surdo is on the 2
    I do have this basic knowledge having played a little surdo. And quickly applied it to my guitar playing. (Of course that's the reason we never play the 2nd beat on a higher bass note in brazilian guitar right?)

    Playing the 3rd surdo rhythm I think got my swing a little better.

    Sometimes I experiment with missing out the 1st beat bass note entirely.

    Anyway, there's something VERY intuitive about those upbeat guitar patterns, you just go T F F T F F and rushing is kind of natural to the guitar esp. if you are playing percussively, so it's kind of easy to actually overdo the 4th 1/16th push if anything lol.

    I find a lot harder to push a pick upstroke, I got accused of playing cavaquinho like a trad jazz banjo player (hey, I'm working on it!) but the same instructor complemented me on (or at least was very nice about) my feel on guitar, so there you go.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-04-2019 at 03:51 PM.

  23. #22

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    No, the tricky thing for me is NOT playing the thumb when there's an irate bass player lol.

  24. #23
    haha christian, it sounds like you are definitly aplying your self to learning about brazilian aproach if you are playing surdo. and exporing these styles you talked about. i think my biggest thing about bringing in some of these clips from the favelas and the escola rehearsals all from rio , is to emphasise what i saw when i got to rio and how i saw more this anticipation aproach and the surdo on 2,than i realised when i was in the states , even as a big brazilian music lover and player. so i wanted to emphasise this on here so people know what i perceived as a dominiate contemporary rio samba aproach. even though rio birthed most of the other aproaches also except the beginning in salvador bahia. youger rio musicians are starting to forget this luizao aproach also , a pity , it is so hip

    but , i havent done this thread justice , i have to admit this, my brazilian guitar playing collegues would laugh at me for not including a bunch of great players, but, let me try to finish this thread with jacob bandolim



    this is the family of strings and jacob do bandolim was so good and had such a powerful influence that many people think the only way to play chorinho is with his aproach with just pandeiro and tamburim .but peixinginho came from developing chorinho at a house of candomble of tia ciata and he would use atabaques and other stuff.but there are chorinho purists who will jump all over you if you dont do it like jacob do bandolim, he had that great an indluence

    more jacob do bandolim

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    haha christian, it sounds like you are definitly aplying your self to learning about brazilian aproach if you are playing surdo. and exporing these styles you talked about. i think my biggest thing about bringing in some of these clips from the favelas and the escola rehearsals all from rio , is to emphasise what i saw when i got to rio and how i saw more this anticipation aproach and the surdo on 2,than i realised when i was in the states , even as a big brazilian music lover and player. so i wanted to emphasise this on here so people know what i perceived as a dominiate contemporary rio samba aproach. even though rio birthed most of the other aproaches also except the beginning in salvador bahia. youger rio musicians are starting to forget this luizao aproach also , a pity , it is so hip

    but , i havent done this thread justice , i have to admit this, my brazilian guitar playing collegues would laugh at me for not including a bunch of great players, but, let me try to finish this thread with jacob bandolim



    this is the family of strings and jacob do bandolim was so good and had such a powerful influence that many people think the only way to play chorinho is with his aproach with just pandeiro and tamburim .but peixinginho came from developing chorinho at a house of candomble of tia ciata and he would use atabaques and other stuff.but there are chorinho purists who will jump all over you if you dont do it like jacob do bandolim, he had that great an indluence

    more jacob do bandolim
    Nah total dabbler in this music. But playing in bateria however casually is for me a great help for understanding Samba and bossa guitar. I lucked out on having some great Brazilian teachers for these few sessions.

    I did try to play Choro, but seven string melts my brain and no one has any time for center guitar when the virtuosos can cover that too lol

    Hard music, man

  26. #25

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    I also feel in the UK playing in Samba groups is a rite of passage for jazz players for various reasons.

    I actually think most graduate jazz players have, as much, or more working knowledge about these styles as they do of North American stuff like Second Line, old school swing etc.

    (In UK jazz there was big rift with US jazz around the 1980s ... other influences became important)
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-04-2019 at 04:57 PM.

  27. #26
    what i would like to pass on here , especially since i didnt do demonstrating the range and depth of brazil samba guitarists really as well as i could have , hahaha, is that this aproach i started with danial santiago , almost that " telecoteco" anticipated tamburim, against a hard bass drum beat on the 2 , also by luizao on his fundimental rio aproach on guitar , as he plays overdub over his innovative bass style , the bezzera da silva rio favela aproach and there are fundimental kicks and cadences that are simple and groovy to cop , the actual escola da samba and dancers with their heavy surdo bass and tamburim killer riffs , is :

    the basic fundimental cadence that is this rio de janeiro kind of modern thing ( they also innovated most of the other samba styles except bahia) , and an interesting cadence to cop on the jazz guitar playing samba . this is the end game, most all weddings , restaraunt gigs, shopping mall gigs etc have a conveniant place to incert a bossa nova or a few .

    most people outside of rio , play an older hit starting on the one , best described by that moment in the disney cartoon where donald duck goes to rio , copacabana with the parrot ze carioca and a cachaca hits donald and instruments start roaring into a samba , and its that start on the one beat .

    if you cop this other cadence and make it a groove at any tempo, pick your favorite boassa that seems to come in on the anticipation and do this groove and solo in that cadence and it is just a simple differant way to play a bossa most of us have all played on gigs. and we are one thing in common, rhythm section players and if you can get a drummer that plays the rio style and the bass player in the luizao style, you can turn any restaraunt , or wedding or club gig into a special private magic groove time land between you and the other rhythm section players and they wont even know it ...hahahha

    i talk about the bahian thing and this is the serious rural roots of samba , and , there is a lot of secrets and codes in there:



    talk can only go so far , you have to see this stuff and hear it

    and here is where modern urban pelorinho salvador bahia has taken samba, into samba reggai , bloco afro , and a modern guitar


  28. #27

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    A couple of things that might be helpful.

    Marco Pereira wrote a book of Brazilian guitar styles called Ritmos Brasilieros. It has a short but meaningful section on Telecoteco. The comps are written out in standard notation. There is a CD which has all the notated material played at a pretty brisk tempo. It's helpful to slow it down.

    There are both one bar and two bar patterns in samba. The two bar patterns can be played forward or reverse, comparable to clave in that respect.

    There is a video on Netflix about the original Bossa Nova players which makes the point that every guitarist had his own way of playing the grooves.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    what i would like to pass on here , especially since i didnt do demonstrating the range and depth of brazil samba guitarists really as well as i could have , hahaha, is that this aproach i started with danial santiago , almost that " telecoteco" anticipated tamburim, against a hard bass drum beat on the 2 , also by luizao on his fundimental rio aproach on guitar , as he plays overdub over his innovative bass style , the bezzera da silva rio favela aproach and there are fundimental kicks and cadences that are simple and groovy to cop , the actual escola da samba and dancers with their heavy surdo bass and tamburim killer riffs , is :

    the basic fundimental cadence that is this rio de janeiro kind of modern thing ( they also innovated most of the other samba styles except bahia) , and an interesting cadence to cop on the jazz guitar playing samba . this is the end game, most all weddings , restaraunt gigs, shopping mall gigs etc have a conveniant place to incert a bossa nova or a few .

    most people outside of rio , play an older hit starting on the one , best described by that moment in the disney cartoon where donald duck goes to rio , copacabana with the parrot ze carioca and a cachaca hits donald and instruments start roaring into a samba , and its that start on the one beat .

    if you cop this other cadence and make it a groove at any tempo, pick your favorite boassa that seems to come in on the anticipation and do this groove and solo in that cadence and it is just a simple differant way to play a bossa most of us have all played on gigs. and we are one thing in common, rhythm section players and if you can get a drummer that plays the rio style and the bass player in the luizao style, you can turn any restaraunt , or wedding or club gig into a special private magic groove time land between you and the other rhythm section players and they wont even know it ...hahahha[/url]
    That word ‘if’ does a lot of work here :-)

    Thanks, will dig into this when I’ve unpacked the info in your other posts :-)

  30. #29
    christian , from seeing your videos i know you have all the facility to cop these things if you want...its really more about fun and messing around with stuff you already know, for example just turning the cadence you are used to around.

    rpjazz , that sounds like a great book and cd . the thing that book cant tell you is that the "tolecoteco " pattern from the old chorinhos and early sambas could be on the beat or anticipating or even coming in after , but..... .

    for the majority of escola de sambas of rio , the "tolecoteco" cadence comes in on the anticipation type of cadence. of course they have lots of other cadences like the "careteiro "( ok this is courtesy of my son sitting here watching tv who is an expert tamburim player), which is that explosive seeming like 16th note machine gun runs.

    excuse me for keeping on refering back to the anticipation tamburim cadence, but, if the books or teachers arnt conveying that this is a dominant sound right now in rio samba ( it could change , i know this), and they dont convey the bezzera da silva type samba which really is a heavy code and cadence to plug into , and make it clear this is for a dance , then they are not giving all the information.

    which is understandable , lots of brazilian musicians and teachers didnt come from rio, but, rio is the center of samba with the understanding it came from bahia .

    and im making a big deal about it because, its the thing that hit me like a ton of bricks when i got there, that that cadence was the current cutting edge rio sound with a surdo heavy on the second beat not dado dado dado. and i had to work on turning around my whole aproach .

    the question i would want to ask all those drummers showing the jackhammer samba at that clinic, if they played with luizao maia ? because the jack hammer samba doesnt compliment the luizao aproach.he recorded all styles of samba with everyone , but, his songs feature what he wanted to push about how samba should sound in the rhythm section, a new way to play it

    and yeah, samba is as big as jazz with so many eras , and styles , and if you come in playing one style era with people who play another, its going to not mesh as well as if everyone is in the same direction.

    so , a big question as you progress in samba and become familiar with all its rich varied styles, is, what is your choice of style to play ? i can honestly say, i play and love the rio style the most with the tolecoteco on the anticipation and heavy surdo on the two in the bass drum , then i play a lot of bahian bloco afro styles because im playing with some of those guys from olodum in salvador pelorinho. those are my preferences, but i do have the jack hammer groove down and know how to adjust to other styles

    and its good to hear us discussing these differant styles and aproaches for everyone to know , glad you pointed these things out too rpjazz , samba is huge and has a lot of variety of aproaches , its best to have a bunch of looks at samba, and that is true of jazz and cuban music and funk too

    i also apologise for the wrong title , it should have included "the rhythms of samba guitar" or something, ive done a great disservice to not being able to address the rich harmonic story that is going on and what that is all about and how important that must be for guitarists playing samba...please accept my humble apology , guitarists reading this

  31. #30

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    One important bit of feedback I got on comping Bossa, which also applies to Samba, is that every song is different.

    That may be an exaggeration, but it does point out that the original version had a pattern and it might be worthwhile to learn it.

    Antonio Adolfo also has a book out which explains a lot of these issues and includes specifics on how the usual instruments should mesh in the rhythm section. I think it's this one.

    Brazilian Music Workshop: Book & CD by Antonio Adolfo, Paperback | Barnes & Noble(R)

    Iirc, he does not tell the guitarist to abandon the thumb. Rather, he has it doubling the bass. He also has it repeating the root if the fifth is below the range of the instrument.

    For players who didn't absorb this music at an impressionable age, the issue, I think, is being able to feel it the Brazilian way. That can be elusive (trust me). In bringing things back to the foundation, this thread can be very helpful. Thanks.

  32. #31
    rpjazz, you are keeping the discusion going and contributing , thank you, you too christian

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Thanks for posting this! Just terrific. And you can hear all the parts you need. So, in this case, at around 3:20, you hear the guitar playing the basic tamborim pattern without creating a sound on every 16th (which the guitarist backing up Hamilton De Hollanda was doing, with a combination of the thumb and various fingers). The pandeiro and tamborim drum fill in the blanks. That's the Brazilian feel -- or, at least, one important one.
    The first part has that feel where it seems to be rushing all the time. Some players do that, some don't, in my experience. I've heard it in both Rio and Sao Paulo players. I've had the experience of playing a tune I knew well with players who went into that "rushing" thing and I had to stop playing. I couldn't feel where the time was. It felt like outer space.

    The guitar thing at 3:00 doesn't have the sense of rushing, although it's slower to begin with. The outro at around 4:55 isolates the tamborim pattern as played on the guitar.

  34. #33
    rpjazz, you have to buy this to hear it , right? i cant seem to hear anything

    im curious, rp, are you playing profesionaly in san francisco? are you playing with brazilian musicians profesionaly ? or mostly at the workshops?

    if you work profesionaly, do you get to do gigs playing brazilian music or weddings or restaurants where you play bossas?

    you seem to have a good knowledge of aspects of brazilian music and have studied with brazilian musicians

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    rpjazz, you have to buy this to hear it , right? i cant seem to hear anything

    Which one can't you hear? I'll help if I can.

    Im curious, rp, are you playing profesionaly in san francisco? are you playing with brazilian musicians profesionaly ? or mostly at the workshops?


    I'm a semi-pro player. Most of my gigs are American jazz, with horns and reading. I get the occasional casual, which are usually American tunes and Bossa Nova songs.

    I have gigged with a number of the local Brazilian players, but not regularly.


    you seem to have a good knowledge of aspects of brazilian music and have studied with brazilian musicians
    I've been studying and playing Brazilian music for about 15 years, pretty intensively. I play with similarly inclined musicians twice a week, but these are jams and workshops (unlike a jam,we'll go over things and play stuff that can't easily be read) not gigs, for the most part.

    I have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to study with a number of Brazilian Masters who come through the area. My group will have a Master come in for a group lesson whenever we can. We have done that quite a few times now.

  36. #35
    Sounds like you are coming from a very good trajectory, in your regular jazz reading gigs and all these things you are doing with brazilian music. You have to create your space with brazilian music in the states, and, the more you create your space with it, the more professional opportunities present themselves and opportunities to be next to top leval players. Good luck

    I can't figure out how to get audio on your link , I go there and I only see how to buy it

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    Sounds like you are coming from a very good trajectory, in your regular jazz reading gigs and all these things you are doing with brazilian music. You have to create your space with brazilian music in the states, and, the more you create your space with it, the more professional opportunities present themselves and opportunities to be next to top leval players. Good luck

    I can't figure out how to get audio on your link , I go there and I only see how to buy it
    Right. The Pereira and Adolfo links are to books that I bought. I don't know of a free version.

    There are some other communities of musicians playing Brazilian music in the States. NYC, of course, has some top players. The Trio Da Paz guys (Romero Lubambo, Duduka De Fonseca and Nilson Matta), Vitor Goncalves, Chico Pinheiro, Eduardo Belo and I think Rafa Barrata is NYC based now. Helio Alves. Mauricio Zottarelli. Rob Curto for Forro. Ari Hoenig is an American who gigs with some of them -- great drummer. Every one of these guys is worth checking out.

    There are various jazz and percussion groups in San Diego, LA, Portland, Seattle and Boulder. I am aware of some guys in Washington DC that I heard on record and sounded great.

    Our local jazz station was playing Spok Frevo Orquestra recently. He's come to town and taught as well.

  38. #37

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    wow great thread. I don't have much to contribute other than I love the music and have struggled with the same things I suppose every non-native struggles with.

    There's a great documentary on Paulinho, "Meu Tempo E' Hoje" (kludged diacritical, yes, dunno how to do the accent thingie). Hard to find in the US (I got it through interlibrary loan) but it does show up on Amazon occasionally. If your Portuguese is up to it the whole thing is on youtube -- the DVD has English subtitles.

    among other wonders there's a bit with Paulinho on guitar and Elton Medeiros playing a box of matches. Guitar, matchbox, vocals, the groove is f'ing transcendental. I'd had the soundtrack CD a while before I saw the movie, played it over and over wondering what the hell is that percussion? Oh, it's a matchbox. anyway it's very much worth tracking down.

    The soundtrack CD has the full performances, the film just clips.

    There are two Mika Kaurismaki documentaries -- Moro No Brasil, general overview but no choro, and Brasileirinho, all choro -- the latter is currently available on Amazon, it's the best of the two, not to be missed if you haven't seen it.

    tangential, but not entirely OT -- anybody play pandeiro?

  39. #38
    thanks for the info whitebread , those docus sound interesting .i play pandeiro , but, i would need a month to get the real chops together , but i know the basics of some of the grooves. my son plays really well...ive been living in brazil 30 = years, came there after 8 years in new york

    yes, rp jazz, you have sussed out the other scenes in the usa, people who love this music always want to know who else is plugged in if you arnt in brazil

    dont forget miami hahaha



    that is diogo brown and phill fest the same guys on an eraliar youtube i brought in, diogo is one of the strongest practicioners and torch bearers of the luizao maia bass innovation of samba, and he lives in miami and phill is the son of icon manfredo fest. lots of brazilians have immigrated to miami so there is a small scene .percusionist sammy figueira , one of the conga greats is into brazilian music and brings in great people


    spok frevo , oh yeah, brazil is certainly a lot more than just samba...i lived in recife a little bit and played with about 4 guys who were in spok frevo, all great players, can play really good jazz.recife has frevo , coco , maracatu, cavalo marinho, caboclinho , and broke the spectacular chico science mangue beat scene, its like going to another country. its a giant subject looking at music besides samba in brazil. most all those rhythms have candomble roots in the rhythm foundations

  40. #39

    check out the jazz chops of one of the people in the founding formation of spok frevo, fabinho costa on trumpet

    the alto sax guy you dont get to hear was also in that founding formation, gustavo anacleto , is now in japan

    the piano is ranieri oliveira now in rio playing for maria rita and writing novela sound tracks

    and the bass is my dearly recently6 departed freind and partner, paulo russo , one of the greatest bass players anywhere , ask any of the people you bring in on your clinics , rpjazz , if they know who paulo russo is


    here we are doing my interpretation of mangue beat in a jazz situation

    rpjazz, you know a lot about various musicians and styles of brazil , i at least want to turn you on to my lable , bons ritmos, lots of people i talk about are on various cds and i cover lots of brazilian styles, two cds were billboard world music charting cds , which is where most brazilian stars get on billboard, the world music section

    Bons Ritmos
    - YouTube


    they are there in their entirety , im not selling anything, its there for anyone to check out the wonderful music and musicians i have been lucky to record on my trajectory. you have a great affinity for brazilian music so maybe you will find something you like. you too christian and whitebread

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    thanks for the info whitebread , those docus sound interesting .i play pandeiro , but, i would need a month to get the real chops together , but i know the basics of some of the grooves. my son plays really well...ive been living in brazil 30 = years, came there after 8 years in new york
    yeah, I think you'd get off on the Paulinho thing. He never explains how he became "da Viola", never heard him play one, that seems to be more a fados instrument. Dunno, do they ever use those in samba?

    OK, Pandeiro, I never could sus out the ergonomics of it. I learned a few basic grooves off a Ney Rosauro video maybe 15 years ago but hit a wall.

    There seem to be two completely opposite approaches. Rosauro holds the pandeiro mostly steady, and gets the finger and heel strokes by flexing/extending the right wrist.

    Other players hold the cupped right hand mostly steady, and get the finger and heel strokes by rocking the pandeiro, rotating the left forearm.

    The Rosauro way is easier to learn but puts a lot of stress on the right wrist.

    Rocking the pandeiro is much easier on the right wrist, but can be a coordination nightmare past the basic samba patterns because the thumb's trying to hit a moving target.

    Now that I've typed this it sounds kind of stupid but I couldn't figure it out.
    So how do you do it? Any comments welcome, profuse apologies for the thread detour.

    btw these clips are great. Also led me to a bunch of Dominguinhos clips but I guess that's another topic.

  42. #41
    whitebread

    nothing bad at all what you are writing

    i do a couple of ways, one is the fingers more involved , always rocking it off the heel of the hand. i try to get a little motion in the hand holding the pandeiro , like you mentioned, try to feel a 16 note thing

    the other way, especialy if it gets faster is a rocking thing but not the 16 noter, more the cadence fundimentals .

    im not an expert but i can handle slow tempos . the thing is , too much work risks straining the holding hand and that would affect my drumming. i kind of went through learning a bunch of the percusion, but, had to know i couldnt let anything mess up my drum stick holding hands, that is my bread and butter. but, i have knowledge of a lot of the percusions. i started on bongos and congas so skin on skin is part of my background

    if i was throwing myself back into samba pandeiro to get my chops up, put on my elza soares stuff ( the greatest samba singer of all time), put on a lot of the bezzera da silva , try to work up to escola de samba tempo and be checking some of the youtubes that have classes or just shows some of the monsters

    there are various other pandeiro rhythms also,like in coco , repente , capoeira

    man,i didnt know the "paulinho" meant paulinho da viola, yes, he is incredable and i think i saw that one too

    rpjazz, i think i saw the bossa one too, carlos lyra, menescal, others and they actualy said they didnt consider themselves great players but joao gilberto came from bahia and had a new aproach( its actualy from a folk loric groove in bahia , some kind of samba da roda aprach) and they all jumped on it.

    they all tried to bend over backwards to say bossa wasnt from jazz but had lots bolero and other stuff but gilberto gil put in perspective saying its just another form of samba and i agree totaly

    important bossa precursers to check out are dorival cayme, johnny alf ,laurindo almeida and moacir santos, the last two ended up in hollywood doing sound tracks

  43. #42


    speaking of pandeiro hahaha

    this isnt guitar , but, its something that really blows my mind

    this is aurinha do coco with a great example of "coco", just voice and percusion and also is a great insight into the soul of brazil especialy the north east

    there are lots of coco styles and i have helped to produce coco raizes do arcoverde , a wonderful group but check out aurinha and an urban recife coco. i think her daughter andreza is on the pandeiro

    i love love love this music, just check that groove out

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post

    im not an expert but i can handle slow tempos . the thing is , too much work risks straining the holding hand and that would affect my drumming. i kind of went through learning a bunch of the percusion, but, had to know i couldnt let anything mess up my drum stick holding hands, that is my bread and butter. but, i have knowledge of a lot of the percusions. i started on bongos and congas so skin on skin is part of my background
    hey thank you! That does answer this question that's been bugging me for years. I quit practicing it because it was stressing out my hands, and I couldn't come up with an approach that didn't. I can't afford injuries (been there, done that) but thought I must be doing something fundamentally wrong.

    yeah, Paulinho da Viola, one of my idols. I guess there are a lot of paulinhos -- used to have a joke that everyone in Brasil was name Paulo, or Ze. And the rest were named Ze Paulo.

    yeah bossa is samba -- sure you don't get the Rachmaninov / Chopin thing in the escola samba but its lineage is pretty obvious. I think it got that "jazz" label by association with Getz and the west coast thing and maybe a little resentment from traditionalists, but it's samba.

    edit: another clip up while I was typing. aaah man...I am fulfilled! lol

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    whitebread

    important bossa precursers to check out are dorival cayme, johnny alf ,laurindo almeida and moacir santos, the last two ended up in hollywood doing sound tracks
    My teacher thought that Johnny Alf is a relatively unsung hero of Bossa Nova -- that some of the innovations were his. Moacir Santos, I believe, worked for Lalo Schifrin. I have April Child in my band book ... there are great versions by Moacir and by Chico Pinheiro on youtube. Moacir's harmony is very sophisticated. Amazing musician.

    Dorival Caymmi wrote in an older style (his era). His son, Dori, is a great guitarist, singer and arranger. I believe Dori may have a Grammy from an album of arrangements of movie songs. The album I'd recommend of his is Kicking Cans. I have Migration in my book. He has his own sense of groove and harmony and his own way of playing guitar.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post


    speaking of pandeiro hahaha

    this isnt guitar , but, its something that really blows my mind

    this is aurinha do coco with a great example of "coco", just voice and percusion and also is a great insight into the soul of brazil especialy the north east

    there are lots of coco styles and i have helped to produce coco raizes do arcoverde , a wonderful group but check out aurinha and an urban recife coco. i think her daughter andreza is on the pandeiro

    i love love love this music, just check that groove out
    My teacher's opinion was that Bossa Nova is an era, not a rhythm. The rhythm, in his view, is samba.

    The story goes that they were playing in Rio apartments and couldn't make too much noise, so they developed a quiet way of playing medium tempo samba. So, you hear a relatively sparse tamborim, non-busy guitar parts etc. They were influenced by American jazz, supposedly passing around an album of Barney Kessel with Julie London, from which they lifted "jazz chords" and then applied that to the quiet samba. Among other influences, of course.

    So, it's samba. There are many styles of samba. Arguably, Bossa is an important one.

    On the subject of Pandeiro: different ways of doing it. For those starting out, a key thing is to get a pandeiro that is light as a feather - or lighter. "Choro Pandeiro" I believe refers to the lighter ones. About 10 inches. If, like I did, you buy a larger, heavier pandeiro, it is surprisingly difficult to play very long. I stopped because of problems with my thumb joints.

    The Pandeiro looks like a tambourine, but it's completely different. The jingles are damped, for one thing. The skin is more resonant than for a typical tambourine. There may be other differences.

    Played well, a pandeiro can trade 4s with a full drumset and the pandeiro can hold its own. Quite amazing, but you can check it out on youtube.

  47. #46
    oh man, april child is the jam , very cool you have it in your book and the cadence im talking about is right all up in his line. you could be working on that cadence all through the rhythm section solos and your solo

    i think chico pineiro missed the whole cadence of the line in his groove aproach of the over all song, its exactly doving the tolecoteco anticipated and implaying a surdo pattern, all in the line, i dont hear chico getting it ,im going to tell you right now , rjpjaz, quiet as is kept, there is a rivalry between sao paulo and rio about samba, count me in on the side of rio all the way hahahaha, and lets face it, sao paulo cant come close to rio in tradition and history and movements of samba hahahaha .

    yes, johny alf is very very hip

    dorival has another son too that plays real nice flute, and a daughter who sings. he is from an older style , as you point out, wrote "ou que que baiana tem" and carmen miranda made it famous , but i hear a beautiful harmonic concept in his songs that imply a sophistication where bossa arrived. when i first got to rio in 86, carnival was in full swing , blowing my mind and one of my favorite escolas , mangueira had dorival cayeme write their escola song. i have brought many carnival songs of the escolas and forgot most of them but i can remember the refrain from dorivals song to this day.

    a lot of people in brazil and the states have slept on laurindo almeida

  48. #47
    yes, i can see how your teacher would describe bossa as an era

    it became very comercialised to the point real estate advertisers were using as a selling work " bossas condominiums, you will love it"

    lots of songs drifted into syrupy sleepiness , the best are pristine

    but , what happened is, its the musicians after who took bossa to an incredable instrumental leval. im not talking about going after american jazz bossa nova, im talking about high leval players who became music directors for stars like gilson peranzzetta for ivan linns or luis avelar for djavan, luizao maia shifted in his innovations that everyone playing samba bossa went after, in the comercial bossa era , it hadnt been developed.

    so the heavy young cats in rio who came after the jobims, morais, baden powell ( there is a great guitarist we could talk about) , would sometimes be their side men or work with the top singers , and they were pushing the playing of bossa samba , the whole rhythm section is shifting in rio , and the compositions of gilson , luizao, barrosinho of banda black rio ( he was my first employer in rio) , luiz avelar when he wanted to stretch out, etc were ferocous. the predacesors wrote unbeleivable gems and these high leval players in rio were taking it to a monster playing leval . not unlike jazz when great writers did stuff but they wernt the highest leval players

    about the whole jazz thing, these great bossa artists were influenced by villa lobos for modern harmony as much as anyone, and, jazz influenced the whole world , there is nothing demeaning about being influenced by jazz, but, plenty of anti americanism seeps in sometimes ,so , there are some who want to distance themselves from any notion that their music is americanised. but, i dont think bossa is as much a result of american jazz as a lot of people would think, but it sure had an influence , how could it not, it influenced a lot of other things in the world at that time. bossa became famous in america and that is when everyone jumped on board

    in truth, i think the french movie black orpheus had a bigger influence for putting bossa out on the world. it won lots of oscars and was famous and it had a giant samba the first scene that morphed into a bossa "tristeza nao tem fim,felicadade sim". so , for me, i could never seperate bossa from a giant sambao, they go together as far as im concerned hahahahaha

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    oh man, april child is the jam , very cool you have it in your book and the cadence im talking about is right all up in his line. you could be working on that cadence all through the rhythm section solos and your solo

    i think chico pineiro missed the whole cadence of the line in his groove aproach of the over all song, its exactly doving the tolecoteco anticipated and implaying a surdo pattern, all in the line, i dont hear chico getting it ,im going to tell you right now , rjpjaz, quiet as is kept, there is a rivalry between sao paulo and rio about samba, count me in on the side of rio all the way hahahaha, and lets face it, sao paulo cant come close to rio in tradition and history and movements of samba hahahaha .
    Moacir developed a groove for April Child he called "Mojo". You can hear it clearly on his version. I think Chico added one little hit at the end, but it's basically the same groove. Chico doesn't go into samba until the solo section. I don't know any other tune that uses Mojo, but I'd like to. It's a terrific groove.

    Dorival, as you say, was brilliant. I didn't mean to diminish that in the slightest. I should probably listen to more of his work. I'm a big fan of Dori. I'm less familiar with his siblings' work.

    In the last couple of years I've heard Andre Mehmari and Hamilton Godoy, live. I believe both Sao Paulo guys. They both groove deep, but they don't play anything alike. What I heard Mehmari do on keys reminded me of Chico's comping on guitar. Also a Paulista. I can't figure out what the difference is in Sao Paulo vs Rio samba styles. Of course, I'd bet that any of them can play every which way.

  50. #49
    the mojo part is ingrained in his arrangement of the head, but, check the line , it seems it got an anticipation thing going , implying tolecoteco. and , on moacir, when he goes to the solo, there is even a tamborim playing the tolecoteco with that anticipation thing .

    not so much with chico , im not saying he is not a good musician , he is a great musician, but they dont cop the hard luizao rio groove on their solo . lets show everyone ( everyone means the two or three people checking in hahaha):

    chico


    moacir


    joyce


    joyce doesnt use the mojo in her head arrangement , its more bossa almost but they are anticipating pretty much , the head asks for it so even if you play the mojo as a head arrangement, you are going samba in the solo, moacir did, chico did...

    and there is a differance in solo aproach in moacyr and chico...and joyce hitting more anticipation rio style. im not sure if tuty moreno is from rio but it sounds in that vein in the bossa style

    this isnt directed at you at all, ive had this discusion about how to do april child , (gees lots of people love this song hahaha) , with rio guys i know and agree that the line is very implying a thing that gets that feeling. but if one wants to play the head technicaly as moacyr wrote it , with the mojo, he is from pernambuco , and they have incredable rhythms up there , for sure the line implies anticipation and the solos go into samba.

    i love this tune so i have strong ideas how i would play it

    take my word for it, there is a rio style im talking about that is differant than sao paulo , that evoloved as i said, after the main bossa masters, by the local rio elite players...broach the subject with your teacher...in 86 when i arrived ,it was noticable in the escola de sambas, sao paulo was way behind. they have closed the gap.

    sao paulo has incredable technicians. chico pineiro can demonstrate some incredable intricate harmonies and melodic directions well worth admiring and checking out, but he isnt showing the rio aproach...can he do it? no doubt he has the chops , but, rpjazz, its not chops , first and formost its choice, i know people and i personaly would die to make the solo deep rio groove of luizao style, and , he , with edu, are playing an older , actualy rio style ( dont you see , it comes from rio, but , edu, celso almeida , other sao paulo drummers have chosen to specialise in the edson machado 16 note broken ride hi hat on two and four and dado dado dado in the bass drum. and they kill it , do it really well.)

    ..kiko freitas lives in rio , is from rio grande de sul, but he also specialises in that aproach, they are the best at that sound, but, that isnt the rio groove, its not just partido alto , its the whole samba lays the bass on the 2 with some variations of surdos, and the anticipation is always the pivot point unless its directly pushed on the one and then you lay on that throughout...

    there is nothing wrong with chosing not to aproach samba like luizao innovated , but , it really was before and after in rio with the surdos making big changes in the escolas and rhythms section cats were going after that...

    the history of samba is enormous, chorinho has 42 strums , or so some guys book sais (hahaha,) bahia has many secrets and origins and beleive me, rio players start acting like they invented samba but bahia is the origins , those samba da rodas have everything to learn about the swing in tact and the dance.

    when i say rio sound , i mean luizao and after ...but just a minute, lots of younger players are forgetting or never got hipped...which is a pity because it is a reality . and the sao paulo players are chosing to perfect and open new directions on an older style that was also invented in rio....nothing wrong with that hahahaha

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post

    Dorival, as you say, was brilliant. I didn't mean to diminish that in the slightest. I should probably listen to more of his work. I'm a big fan of Dori. I'm less familiar with his siblings' work.
    Yeah Dorival Caymmi wrote a lot of great songs that translated seamlessly into the bossa era and beyond-- I'm thinking of Doralice on the Getz/Gilberto record, and then the next track on that same record is Ary Barroso. I don't see a sharp divide between the Carmen Miranda era and the 50s-60s, or today for that matter. The style of presentation changes, the songs remain the songs.

    Lumiar did a "Songbook" series around '80s-'90s, featuring a single composer with each track by a different performer-- the Dorival Caymmi set is four CDs (just looked on Amazon, they're still around but pricey) -- anyway if you can find those it's a real eye-opener about the enduring quality and adaptability of these tunes.

    And there's Rosa Passos Canta Caymmi (oh crap, I just looked that up -- what's the deal with these vultures, does anybody really pay $71.80 plus shipping for a CD? well if you're that guy, it's a great record)