The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76
    rpjazz , for sure the first vynil older version you brought in by joao gilberto has a quircky comp , old style (maybe some folk bahia or chorinho comp), but, the one with caetano is definitly more the anticipated one ( downbeat on the "2" of 2/4 , ), and sometimes he carries over the anticipations over the whole bar or bars .

    there is a ketu candomble beat called "avamunha ", that helped me to understand the anticipated accent all the way through . it does it on the opisite hand . all of a sudden, those constant anticipation comps , that pianos do a lot too, or in solo hits, made much more sence. i already caught them, but, after copping "avamunha", it started making sence why.

    jcat, the last karen allyson version i told you i would listen to , is definitly the "on the one " samba comp, like she did on the first clip brought in.

    that is the opisite of what joao gilberto with caetano is doing , and the bebel guitar version ( who doesnt go into constant anticipation hits , just in the cadence leading into "1")

    if i was trying to put together the good arsenal of samba bossa guitar comps , i would learn both aproaches , that would be a great thing

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  3. #77
    gees, isnt that cut a variation on " so danca samba " which was duke ellintons "take the a train "?hahahahah

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    rpjazz , for sure the first vynil older version you brought in by joao gilberto has a quircky comp , old style (maybe some folk bahia or chorinho comp), but, the one with caetano is definitly more the anticipated one ( downbeat on the "2" of 2/4 , ), and sometimes he carries over the anticipations over the whole bar or bars .

    there is a ketu candomble beat called "avamunha ", that helped me to understand the anticipated accent all the way through . it does it on the opisite hand . all of a sudden, those constant anticipation comps , that pianos do a lot too, or in solo hits, made much more sence. i already caught them, but, after copping "avamunha", it started making sence why.

    jcat, the last karen allyson version i told you i would listen to , is definitly the "on the one " samba comp, like she did on the first clip brought in.

    that is the opisite of what joao gilberto with caetano is doing , and the bebel guitar version ( who doesnt go into constant anticipation hits , just in the cadence leading into "1")

    if i was trying to put together the good arsenal of samba bossa guitar comps , i would learn both aproaches , that would be a great thing
    .

    It's hard to use words to describe this stuff.

    Here's the way I understand some of it.

    Some tunes have a one bar pattern 16th 8th 16th. Phrased unevenly. The Little Train That Could is close. "i THINK i can, i THINK i can" etc.

    More tunes have a two bar pattern and it can be forward or reverse, like clave.

    I looked up Avamunha on youtube. What I found was a two bar bell pattern. Americans will recognize it as similar to the Bo Diddley beat, except the next to last his is a 16th earlier (thinking in 2/4).

    What I hear in the other drums is "uh_one_e_and_uhhhhh ... uh_one_e_and_uh" etc. Then, the leader starts overlaying other material.

    That bell pattern is used in the Northeast, commonly in Frevo, but you'll hear a slow version of it in the string instrument comp behind Luis Gonzaga, playing baiao. In this case, the drums seem more samba, but the bell is what I've learned is more NE style. Of course, if you play NE style comping against samba, it can sound pretty good. I don't know how common that is in traditional circles.

    Back to the 2 bar pattern. In most fast sambas (and a lot of slow ones) the first bar starts with a 16th rest. The second bar starts right on the one. As in oxox oxxo/ xoxo xxox/ and repeat. That's one variant. Nobody does it all the time. They vary it. Reverse the two bars and you get something you'll hear more often on slower tunes but, also, the occasional fast tune. You'll hear this in the tamborim in the drum set, right hand of guitar and piano. Soloists will phrase with it. Bass fills too. Understanding the drum patterns and phrasing with them is the key.

    For the newbie, it can help to check out the melody in the first 8 of Desafinado. You'll hear that almost all the notes are on upbeats. Another place to hear it is on Joe Pass's album Tudo Bem. They play a double time version of Wave. Late in the track, the nylon guitarist (Oscar Castro Neves, iirc) takes what amounts to a solo by playing a series of fast upbeats on chords. Try to nail the feel of that!

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    gees, isnt that cut a variation on " so danca samba " which was duke ellintons "take the a train "?hahahahah
    Don't know...but your right, there's the "A-train" in "So Danco Samba". Here are some nice examples of improvisations, Jazz-samba style (Trumpet, Vibraphone, Guitar, Scat):


  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Joao's version of O Pato seems very difficult to get, rhythmically. Same with Allyson's. The guitar comp and the melody work together, but not quite in the way my American ear expects. On the other hand, Bebel's track does the samba comp the way I learned it, from my Brazilian teacher years ago -- and seems more straightforward with respect to how it fits the melody. Meaning, I guess, I could play the Bebel part, but I'd struggle with trying to do Joao's part.
    "Novas Ideias" is a very simple, straight forward Samba. Format ABAB with an Intro. It's basically a I-vi-ii-V progression (A-section) and IV iii vi ii (B-section) with minor/major substitution. Free flowing improvisation.

    I'm hooked by the chorus, simple and beautiful to the core what it's all about. I feel....like dancing


    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos

    bebel gilberto is joao gilbertos daughter so its no surprise she has his name hahaha and that is seu jorje on vocal , i didnt check but i recognise his voice
    Wow, Bebel is Joao's daughter, didn't know, thanks
    ....now, don't tell me Gilberto Gil is her cousin
    Last edited by JCat; 05-31-2019 at 05:31 AM.

  7. #81
    Ok rpjazz, I have to breakdown more what you said, but my quick read sais this.

    its the drum part on avamunha, yes, the bell is clave. But the two two stick , two drum " comp" pattern by the two "pi" and "le" drums, has this "uh one" ( there is also a flared up version but it implicates it but not alternate hands).the opposite hand is always up beat like these guitar or pianos get sometimes to enhance the groove.

    the Ketu candomblé beat that is the grandfather of baio, forro, coco , is ilu, it keeps a constant dotted eighth going ( like the first half of clave)while the bell in avamunha , like clave , starts the dotted triplet and second half answers in duple feel.

    now , your good example , oxoxo etc , is actualy from a candomblé de angola hand drum beat " Samba de caboclo " definitely not Yoruba haha.

    now , very interesting thing you said, that it doesn't hold the cadence , but , in the more Afro brazilian way these grooves are played , they hold down the cadence and don't switch.

    remember the docu you said you saw about bossa with menescal, Carlos Lyra , and others talking? I think I saw that, and those guys said they weren't the best guitar players and Joao Gilberto came along with his bahian samba approach and blew them away.

    you are hearing a lot of the "cool school" approach from most of the Brazilian guitarists that their work gets to the states. They shift the cadence around for more freedom, but , they sacrifice deep groove from Afro brazilian samba , influenced by candomblé .

    take your oxoxoxxo/ , and add the anticipation , x/oxoxoxxo/xoxoxxox/. It's already in there as you wrote , but the cadence should be heard starting with the anticipation , and you have samba de caboclo bell part. Where the hands on the drum are implying /oxoxoxxo/

    remenber , chorinho started with peixinguinho practicing and performing at the bar in tia Ciabatta's candomblé house in rio. She came from bahia. The samba is linked to candomblé. Those grooves never shift cadence, as many samba variations also don't switch cadence, like pagode, or samba da roda. But bossa and samba jazz do float on top depending on who is playing it.

    Actualy, you can keep cadence but change up comp approaches to sound like it's shifting but it's not. It's like having a bunch of these comp approaches in your arsenal , they come from chorinho, candomblé , and natural styles evolving, and you have freedom to interact these approaches in the groove with the rhythm section in an open field improv with an eye on the groove at all times...a lot of cool fun, right?

    great you are checking out northeast musics. Rich in Rhythms dances and melodies. Don't forget bahian samba and bahian guitar. Bahia us northeast too, and crosses with Pernambuco in the interior, there are parralels in slavery times and the cultures that developed in Brazil. Coco raizes de arcoverde is a cousin tô samba da roda , and coco is pre forro baião

    jcat, haha yeah Gilberto Gil isn't related haha

  8. #82
    One thing I'm hearing in João Gilberto first version of "pato" , in his comps, that are quircky, some kind of folk bahian references, and he is shifting a lot.

    his second version is more the x/oxoxoxxo/xoxoxxox/oxoxoxxo/xoxoxxox/ with sometime anticipating all the way avamunha style

    rpjazz, check out "ILU Ketu candomblé " for the grandfather of baião and forro, it's a mind blowing rhythm

  9. #83
    Here is the heavy thing about ilu, the bell has some secrets, and the pi and le comping two stick drum parts have other secrets and the solo rum has other secrets.

    if you take the pé and le two stick drum parts and slow it way down and the opisute hand has that bossa cadence of the floating rim click , coming in after the down beat. Most bossa has it on the downbeat , but some come in the up beat ( which Christian pointed out a jazz song that uses this cadence also, it is Afro diaspórica)

    so that mysterious almost slow triplet cadence has a root . It's in frevo and one of the cadences of olodum

    these candomblé roots have lots of secrets to our modern cadences in our popular musics, in the drum bearts, the bell parts and solo cadences.

    man, this is the fun, it never ends, there are always new discoveries waiting to happen to tweak these grooves

    i can't wait to record a bop or samba or play it on the bandstand, or practice in my drum space, to get a chance to nail it one more time,it never gets old.....this is why I play music forever

  10. #84

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    One of the guys I learned from (a Brazilian) said that authentic Brazilian samba starts on the syncopated bar of the two bar figure - so if one bar starts on the beat and one bar starts off the beat, the latter will go first....

  11. #85
    I think in many ways, you all who had teachers , or some heightened interest in brazilian music, have gotten this material.

    your teacher seems to imply what I'm saying, and , rpjazz, your oxox pattern seems on point.

    for sure there is a body of samba work that starts on the downbeat too, chorinho has most of the string approaches to comping samba imbedded.

    i think it's healthy to dissect over and over, and pick what works for you...

    as a gringo, I was learning these tamborim flips how they do it in rio samba. I kept watching the escolas over and over, and I figured I'd learn this flip thing three different ways in case my first try was wrong..and that's it as a person outside of Brazil, you have to try a bunch of approaches to find the right one, and beleive me most Brazilians are not experts either , for sure they come from different areas with different concepts.

    its the same in jazz, samba and jazz are huge , lots of styles, it's great to dive in and find out

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    One of the guys I learned from (a Brazilian) said that authentic Brazilian samba starts on the syncopated bar of the two bar figure - so if one bar starts on the beat and one bar starts off the beat, the latter will go first....
    It depends on the tune.

    Most fast sambas are syncopated bar first. Check out, for example, Minha Saudade. It's hard to find a fast one that isn't.

    But, if you listen to Leny Andrade's "Rio" you'll hear, I think, non-syncopated bar first, at least in part of the tune. The comping on Rio is trickier than it might seem at first. BTW, I think there's a chart of that arrangement, or similar, in the Latin Real Book iirc.

    And, it's not son clave. Clave never turns around, but the tamborim pattern sometimes does. You can hear the tamborim pattern turn around just before the melody in Ave Rara and in the intro of Aqui Oh.

    E Nada Mais, played about 76bpm in 2/4 is non syncopated first.

    Slow tunes can be either way. Caminhos Cruzados feels non-syncopated first. Ela E Carioca feels better to me syncopated at 68bpm.

    Some Brazilians do talk about the tamborim pattern in this way, i.e. as forward or reverse. But, other Brazilians do not. They focus on "every tune is different".

    I think it's helpful to get a group, not experienced in samba, organized and on the same page. It gets the comping consistent among the drums and chord instruments. It affects how the melody players phrase.

    But, a more experienced group intuits it, I think. Or maybe, the drummer sets it up and the cognesenti follow.

    And, then, of course, there are tunes with one bar patterns and tunes that don't fit the tamborim paradigm. For example, A Ra is done in various ways. One of those ways is common, based on a NE rhythm that some call calango and others may call Donato-style. Emphasizes two-and in the bass. Grooves like mad and you can overlay various comping patterns.

    It's broad and deep. Pretty much everything is "it's this, except when it's something else".

  13. #87

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    TBF I think he was outlining a rule of thumb rather than a general principle.

  14. #88

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    Joao often leads on the '1' of course...

  15. #89

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    I hear a lot of Joao as a one bar pattern. Often, xo xo ox oo. But, he stretches and compresses the time, weaving his voice in and out to create something more subtle.

    As we've discussed elsewhere, if you play it as written, mathematically perfect, it won't groove properly. The groove is in the cracks.

  16. #90
    rpjazz, if that x is anticipated, that is the exact left hand of the avamunha "pi" "le" ( both drums play the same thing while the "rum" solos and the bell plays very close to the pi and le) in ketu candomble ( as i said there is a flared up version of the pi and le so the left hand plays something else but the ontop is the same)

    good find

    i beleive a lot of guitar comps are implications of these rhythm cadences , with variations that evolove as styles and trends

    joao gilberto is from bahia and knew a lot of the folk elements from there. that is what fascinated menescal and lyra and the others, he had a new swing for them...they are good too but they knew they werent heavy duty players

    i mentioned before, its the cats after the initial bossa famous people , who were in rio, great players some would be musical directors for djavon or ivan linns (luis avelar and gilson peranzzetta) , studio bass players like luizao who was also famous with elis regina, with piano mariano, banda black rio, these cats were heavy players, could play great jazz, ive played jazz with some of those guys, and samba. they took bossa samba to another leval with playing and writing too

  17. #91

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    Nelson Faria does an interview program. I've seen his programs with Guinga and Romero Lubambo.
    Portuguese with English subtitles and a lot of playing. It's on youtube.

    With Romero, they talk a fair amount about the influence of American jazz. They can both sing Wes' solo on Round Midnight. Even the original Bossa players listened to American jazz. But, more for chord voicings than rhythms. The rhythms come right out of the bateria.

    I came at this by being able to read and getting a lot from books and charts. Now, years later, I don't recommend that approach. The best way is to listen to the Brazilian giants. There's plenty of video and audio where you can hear the parts clearly. In fact, Faria and Lubambo play two songs that are pretty simple and which really show the style -- For Donato (which I'm going to have to transcribe!) which is a Trio Da Paz tune and Rio (by Nelson Faria). You can see their hands and youtube lets you slow it down. That's your lesson.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    .

    It's hard to use words to describe this stuff.

    Here's the way I understand some of it.

    Some tunes have a one bar pattern 16th 8th 16th. Phrased unevenly. The Little Train That Could is close. "i THINK i can, i THINK i can" etc.

    More tunes have a two bar pattern and it can be forward or reverse, like clave.

    I looked up Avamunha on youtube. What I found was a two bar bell pattern. Americans will recognize it as similar to the Bo Diddley beat, except the next to last his is a 16th earlier (thinking in 2/4).

    What I hear in the other drums is "uh_one_e_and_uhhhhh ... uh_one_e_and_uh" etc. Then, the leader starts overlaying other material.
    The avamunha thing I found is built on what cubans call son clave, in what we call 3-2 in the US.

    yeah, this stuff is hard to describe in English with the usual counting syllables and mnemonics. Konokol syllables work pretty well. You don't have to do the whole every permutation of every rhythmic cycle thing to start using them, they work great right out of the box.

    So for example the three-side of son clave becomes Takita Takita Taka -- an eight beat cycle grouped 3-3-2. hey hey, tu way pocky way. Universal groove, it's everywhere, milonga, mambo, bluegrass banjo, countless Arabic grooves, etc ad infinitum. Just feels great, organic, one wonders if there's some neurological basis.

    For the full 16 beat 3-2 son clave cycle -- Takita Takita Takadimi Taka Takadimi.

    here's a common balkan dance groove, seven beat cycle, strangely organic (there's a point relevant to samba) --

    Taka Taka Takita -- 2-2-3

    ok, see if this rings a bell

    kaTaka | Taka Taka Takita Taka Taka Takita taka |

    These things are pan-cultural, they appear in different permutations various times and places, but somehow connected. A mystery!

    There's also the whole Arabic/Persian/Turkish etc counting/mnemonic thing, syllables vary by culture and genre, pick out ones you like.

    It's weird, Europeans happily adopted place value notation, astronomy, algebra, and to a lesser extent, bathing, but we're still stuck with a-one-a and a-two-a... yes, exaggerating for comic effect. But it is weird, one-ee-and-uh two-ee has its uses but konokol and the Arabic methods are infinitely superior for internalizing groove.

    ok enough typing for now. hopefully it's useful

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard
    The avamunha thing I found is built on what cubans call son clave, in what we call 3-2 in the US.

    yeah, this stuff is hard to describe in English with the usual counting syllables and mnemonics. Konokol syllables work pretty well. You don't have to do the whole every permutation of every rhythmic cycle thing to start using them, they work great right out of the box.

    So for example the three-side of son clave becomes Takita Takita Taka -- an eight beat cycle grouped 3-3-2. hey hey, tu way pocky way. Universal groove, it's everywhere, milonga, mambo, bluegrass banjo, countless Arabic grooves, etc ad infinitum. Just feels great, organic, one wonders if there's some neurological basis.

    For the full 16 beat 3-2 son clave cycle -- Takita Takita Takadimi Taka Takadimi.

    here's a common balkan dance groove, seven beat cycle, strangely organic (there's a point relevant to samba) --

    Taka Taka Takita -- 2-2-3

    ok, see if this rings a bell

    kaTaka | Taka Taka Takita Taka Taka Takita taka |

    These things are pan-cultural, they appear in different permutations various times and places, but somehow connected. A mystery!

    There's also the whole Arabic/Persian/Turkish etc counting/mnemonic thing, syllables vary by culture and genre, pick out ones you like.

    It's weird, Europeans happily adopted place value notation, astronomy, algebra, and to a lesser extent, bathing, but we're still stuck with a-one-a and a-two-a... yes, exaggerating for comic effect. But it is weird, one-ee-and-uh two-ee has its uses but konokol and the Arabic methods are infinitely superior for internalizing groove.

    ok enough typing for now. hopefully it's useful
    Yes! I hadn't been exposed to that before. Thanks!

  20. #94

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    Here's me doing O Pato with a little improvisation twist. -Do you recognize the tunes?
    O Pato is the mother of good groove. Endless opportunities for rhythmic variation.


  21. #95
    nice jcat, i hear your "so what " referance...

    white bread, yes, the bell on avamunha is like 3/2 clave, but its what is happening in the "pi" and "le", the two drums using two sticks by each drummer , that is fascinating. there is a flared version , but , th non flared version, the opisite hand of the avamunha in the pi le , is on top aniticipated all the way, hitting the syncopation what rpjazz said joao gilberto used , gosh, rest in peice we are just talking about him here.

    they are playing all kinds of stuff he did and a concert over and over and a huge amount of his comps in these are the tamborim with the anticipation telecoteco ...rpjazz you brought in that other figure of his comps also i said was avamunha in the opisite hand

    white bread , so to continue, the opisite hand of the pi and le in avamunha is also seen in piano players comping in samba sometimes. when i learned it , i immediatly recognised its a pattern i use in brushes when trying to catch these all anticipation accents, blew my mind


    "For the full 16 beat 3-2 son clave cycle -- Takita Takita Takadimi Taka Takadimi.

    here's a common balkan dance groove, seven beat cycle, strangely organic (there's a point relevant to samba) --

    Taka Taka Takita -- 2-2-3

    ok, see if this rings a bell

    kaTaka | Taka Taka Takita Taka Taka Takita taka |"

    hahah , i ve already confused myself with some of this , the last one is take 5 right? haha, so i have to check it out more , but, i find a huge distinction in the simple call responce polly rhythms in the ancient african concepts, seriously expressed in ketu candomble , and, as these rhythms got more compex in turkey to arab to india linear concepts. and if you see the simpler ones expressed in those cultures, to the simpler ancient african cultures ( not simple in pollyrhythms , but in duple /triple meter) , its because they were influenced also , like in the americas, many times from slavery, by some ancient african concepts. and if they arnt influenced at all, the differance would be in how the dance goes with these concepts in the ancient african concepts. its seriously on display in brazil , cuba, usa, jamaica, trinidad etc

    i try to break this down like that because i ask myself , what is it about miles davis , so what, trane, bird , diz, etc etc that seems to emphasize turning off your thinking brain and tapping into intuition and subconcious. its not so simple as any trance drumming , because of the duple triple pollyrhythm syncoipation, but, you dont have to think a little more as in dave brubeck, zakir hussein , who i love along with his father, john mchglauclin being his innovative odd timies master etc i really relate to the turning off the thinking brain to let the intuition flow..forgive my long discourse, but , im asking myself why did i love certain musics and felt they were for me , more than others? and im on a deep journey finding out

    rest in peace , joao gilberto, heck , i went out playing a lot of restaurant and wedding gigs where i live when i didnt have to at my age , to play bossa nova with real brazilian musicians , and , for sure joao gilberto tunes were in there ...one of the founding fathers of bossa
    (did someone mention on here, they are saying it on tv here, he used to go into the bathroom for hours playing guitar and singing hahaha, and that his comps were imitating the tamborim..i swear, ive heard a report that there is a region in bahia , where he is from that sais they are the origin of one of his comps hahahahaha

  22. #96

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    The legacy of Joao Gilberto is huge. He told the world about the laid back samba, the bossa nova, the new beat. But it was not only the beat, there were exciting harmonies and strong melodies that spoke to Jazz musicians and fans. The Jazz samba was born and for a period it became more popular than the "modern" Jazz of the time. In a way, the bossa was perhaps the last period of Jazz as a pop-genre, a pinnacle...but it was not invented in the US...fortunately it had great support from players like Stan Getz.

    In my impro above, besides the reference to Miles' "So What" I also included "Tequila", the old Mexican flavored R&B hit, right in between Brazil and the US. 10 years later the latin beat found its way into Rock by players like Santana, who got a breakthrough with "Evil Ways" originally recorded by Jazz percussionist Willie Bobo.

    Jazz and R&B tend to blend very nice with latin rhythms, but in addition there's so much inspiration for Jazz musicians to be found in latin harmony, melody, expression and the pure sound of authentic instruments. Here's a song that calls on my soul to go to Brazil. I think there's a strong Spanish influence that connects the Americas to continents across the Atlantic. I believe "Augusta" was recorded in '73, but the sound feels very relevant to me. The interlude (1:20 ) played by some sort of guitar (-what is it?) together with the bass, is very strong. Maybe more "folk" than Jazz, there's not much improvisation in the recording, but it inspires to improvisation:



    -Is there a contemporary movement of music in this tradition in Brazil today? Seu Jorge perhaps?
    -What's state of the art in Brazil, when it comes to popular music performed on authentic instruments (popular in the true sense, what people actually like to listen to)?

  23. #97
    that is tom ze, part of the "tropicalia " movement with caetano veloso , gilberto gil and gal costa
    they all knew bossa but were trying to bring in other elements.he doesnt sound that bossa that often

    brazil popular music is suffering the same thing as everywhere else, a small group of people at the head of record companies, make desicians about a small amount of people who will get their huge hyper promotional budgets while huge amounts of great artists get left out.

    right now, the most popular music in brazil is the rural origines sertaneja, also forro , pagode a comercial samba from the favela, baile funk a funk dance from the favela in rio and some brazilian rock

    i came in the tail end when unbeleivable artists from the samba bossa tradition were still doing powerful work. brazilian rock was getting the big media investment and push at this time

    seu jorje is a great example of good work getting some play, but, not mainstream everyday play. chico science and the mangue beat scene was getting popular in the 90's, they were visionary but chico science died in a car accident. i got a lot from them

    the other thing, lots of music popularity is regional, brazil is huge so what is popular and you can hear in the radio in bahia , wont get play in sao paulo , or belem de para will have their unique pop music , recife, manaus in the amazon etc . in sao paulo and rio, the big markets will push music that is trying to sound international but also the sertaneja , which is big now, i dont listen to that .

    in the usa, the big question i have is why did they ever seperate salsa jazz, cuba jazz, brazilian jazz from the main jazz idiom and create "latin jazz"? they never should have done that, it weakons jazz to seperate it

  24. #98
    the other truth about brazil is, you have to search for buried treasure, the best stuff is just hidden

    instrumental music sells lower than the usa and that is like below zero or something hahaha

    but, its like new york, you really have to search to find good jazz , there is a lot of mediocre jazz , or jazz that might not be a persons preferred style