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  1. #51

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    Can you give some more examples of Luizao's innovations? I have a feeling I'm not really understanding it.

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  3. #52


    this is treasure, who ever is checking this out, this is an old rare luizao release, he never had a chance to get really recorded and promoted for the genius he was and great composer.

    this is early 80s and lots of songs have that production value, but:

    go to 11:43 and listen to that song and that is luizao and what his innovation was all about. there is things on here he is trying to be comercial, but, i played and recorded with luizao , and he leaned on his innovation more than trying to be comercial

    but, that cut is what that sound is all about

  4. #53
    rpjazz

    please check out 19:44 29:06 also

    rp jazz, you are exactly the type american musician i want to reach out to, who has gone the extra mile to get into brazilian music, you know a lot of names, youve seen spok frevo, know about moacir santos, played with great brazilian drummers, and have teachers showing you the way.

    im reaching out to show you there is this other side of samba that isnt being shown in the educational system or the normal means how we learn about brazilian music if we live outside brazil

    and i can tell, i dont think you have to go to brazil to get some of these things , but , someone will have to point the way so you at least know it exists also with the information you are getting. gosh ,when i was in the states i wish someone had shown me bezzerra da silva , elza soares , luizao maia , barrozinho and banda black rio , but we all knew who hermeto pasqual , egberto gissmonte , airto and flora were .

    in all honesty, as americans, we are getting the equivalant of the cool school of jazz education with out getting the other sides . we are getting bill evans instead of wynton kelly...i love bill evans , but freddie the freeloader is my favorite cut on kind of blue

    the afro brazilian side is being pushed aside for the more european aproach , that is it in a nutshell.

    in another nut shell, i see the sao paulo players into their solo part and sometimes they hit the anticipation , then they come back to the on the one cadence with dado dado in the bass drum and hi hat on 2 and 4, the rio aproach is lay on the anticipation all the way through like it is the groove ( this is not always and definitly not the younger musicians). they may change in a B section but more than not they keep the anticipation going. you can hear in those cuts i recomended on the luizao record, the bass drum is acting like a surdo on 2 and 4 or the variations , not dado dado...the bass is crucial, if he is doing the luizao surdo, dado dado on the bass drum kind of clashes, but its still in time so it passes

    i just want you to know this differance so then you can make your own choice

    you even said, those guys at the clinics said each city has its own aproach to samba, there it is, and , rio has its own aproach , and rio happens to be the heaviest city for samba evolution, and bahia is the origins and roots and should be checked out big time also.

    ask yourself this, what musical movement innovation has sao paulo ever put out in brazil that defines the soul of the country?

    name one idiom that sao paulo is responsable for defining culture in brazil?

    rio has a bunch, chorinho , samba moderno, samba no prate , bossa nova ,escola de samba

    salvador has samba de caboclo, samba da roda, candomble, capoiera, trio electrico, bahian guitar ( gosh that ought to be addressed on this guitar forum)

    recife has frevo, marakato, coco, caboclinho, cavalho marinho

    but name one in sao paulo...sao paulo has incredable technicians , lots of music business is there , tours go out from there, great musicians, but the heart and soul of samba started in bahia and rio became the place it evolved , thank god rio was the first city i lived in in brazil, it set me straight

    all the drummers in sao paulo like edu, celso almeido, vera figueira , there are a bunch, they are great drummers, ought to be checked out, can show you a style from rio that came before and have perfected it

    but i dont want to sound like anyone of them...yes i have the beat they do just to bring it out for the people that arnt hip to the rio sound and that is a lot of people, people in brazil, every brazilian musician doesnt know everything there is to know about brazilian music. some know the harmonic evolution and sophistication but dont know the ginga and roots, some are only good at the ginga and not very sophisticated harmonicly...its all who you know or play with or talk to

    so i respect your knowledge and journy learning brazilian music, i just want to share you what hit me like a ton of bricks when i got to rio

  5. #54

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    I studied mostly with a Carioca for several years before I met any Paulistas. As it turned out, most of my study was with one or the other and I never really distinguished between them the way you are describing. The way the tamborim patterns were played depended on the song, as far as I have been aware. I'll have to listen more to your videos to make sure I understand the points you are making.

    Later, I did study and had opportunities to study and play with some Northeastern musicians, including Spok, whose music I love, both the frevo and the forro. As far as roots music goes, I've heard a lot of Pagode, but I don't play it.

    One other thing. I've had the opportunity to study with musicians of very different ages -- and I have wondered if that makes a difference too.

    Some players have a very busy comping style and some don't. Both ways groove deeply but they don't feel or sound alike. There's one version that always feels to me like rushing and another that does not.

    It's a big country with a lot of music and great musicians!

  6. #55
    guitarbuddy, you bet, incredable inspiring film. ive watched many times and asked why is it so good? and i realised he has the drumming going in the back ground for a huge part of the first part of the film, when the girl arrives , on the boat , walking around , orpheus and his girl and she starts samba dancing in a crowd, in that tight dress that for me at 10 or 11 made me drop . they even show frevo, candomble, a rehersal of the escola . wonderful fulm

    rpjazz, yes, your knowledge of northeast people is great , we talk about spok freve , lets show them, here with the trumpet guy i showed could play bop , fabinho costa. my freind augusta da silva is killing the drums and reneato bandeira ive worked and recorded with is on guitar. he is on one cut on my new record relentless , but i recorded it a while back. this only expands your knowledge of this great country, you are right it is huge , you can only pick what you like the most and dive in. your teachers may not be covering this. but at least im trying to let you know and im bringing in youtubes for proof . so use your ears and make a judgement on that



    now i want to show you a couple of the drummers who i say in rio invented the style that a lot of the sao paulo drummers i see are emulating and basing their aproach:


    that is edison machado , lots of people refer to him as the innovator of this more open style leading with the cymbal


    milton banana was a great practicionor of this style

    they pushed that style in the 60s and luizao came on in the 70s and changed the rhythm section aproach
    listen to them and immedietly listen to 19:44 and 29:06

    a vast differance...do that if you can and i dont think you will be able to tell me there is no differance...compare it to bezzerra da silva
    good luck on your learnings

  7. #56
    19:44 and 29:06 of the luizao record i brought in

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    guitarbuddy, you bet, incredable inspiring film. ive watched many times and asked why is it so good? and i realised he has the drumming going in the back ground for a huge part of the first part of the film, when the girl arrives , on the boat , walking around , orpheus and his girl and she starts samba dancing in a crowd, in that tight dress that for me at 10 or 11 made me drop . they even show frevo, candomble, a rehersal of the escola . wonderful fulm

    rpjazz, yes, your knowledge of northeast people is great , we talk about spok freve , lets show them, here with the trumpet guy i showed could play bop , fabinho costa. my freind augusta da silva is killing the drums and reneato bandeira ive worked and recorded with is on guitar. he is on one cut on my new record relentless , but i recorded it a while back. this only expands your knowledge of this great country, you are right it is huge , you can only pick what you like the most and dive in. your teachers may not be covering this. but at least im trying to let you know and im bringing in youtubes for proof . so use your ears and make a judgement on that



    now i want to show you a couple of the drummers who i say in rio invented the style that a lot of the sao paulo drummers i see are emulating and basing their aproach:


    that is edison machado , lots of people refer to him as the innovator of this more open style leading with the cymbal


    milton banana was a great practicionor of this style

    they pushed that style in the 60s and luizao came on in the 70s and changed the rhythm section aproach
    listen to them and immedietly listen to 19:44 and 29:06

    a vast differance...do that if you can and i dont think you will be able to tell me there is no differance...compare it to bezzerra da silva
    good luck on your learnings
    Which video goes to 29:06?

    The Spok video is, like all his stuff, amazing. They sound so comfortable at such a high tempo and the rhythm section grooves like mad -- which is very hard to do at that kind of tempo. The guitar comp (this is,after all a guitar site) is often on quarters (depending how you count it) with a bit of anticipation, but he occasionally embellishes the basic pulse, always brilliantly. Very hard to do really well. That guitarist is a great player. If you don't embellish it gets repetitive, if you do embellish you risk interfering with the groove if you're just a nanosecond off.

    What I heard at 19:44 was what seemed to be a transition from a two bar samba pattern (starting with a 16th rest in the first bar in the basic tamborim) to a one bar pattern at that point, but I doubt that I understood the accents.

  9. #58
    i meant compare those records with the luizao record i brought in , the luizao record times at 19:44 and the other at 29:06

    i realised that was confusing and i tried another post to make it clear but i think you missed it

    yes, renato bandeira is a really good underrated guitarist. i met him playing jazz in recife (this is a while back, i havne seen him in a while) and he plays chorinho also. all styles really, fusion funk . great players in recife , my big respects to that town

    please make those comparisons of the old rio drummers records to the luizao record , to hopefully get what im saying

    at the very least , it gives you another arm in your arsenal of brazilian music expresions and a differant samba aproach

  10. #59
    guitarbuddy

    there are monster guitar players on the soundtrack of black orpheus

    i was lucky, my dad was in the used book , records and comics business and he got me the soundtrack record , so it had these old escola da samba feels, candomble and the beautiful guitar tracks

    at 11 or so, black orpheus sound track was my big introduction to brazilian music

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    i meant compare those records with the luizao record i brought in , the luizao record times at 19:44 and the other at 29:06

    i realised that was confusing and i tried another post to make it clear but i think you missed it

    yes, renato bandeira is a really good underrated guitarist. i met him playing jazz in recife (this is a while back, i havne seen him in a while) and he plays chorinho also. all styles really, fusion funk . great players in recife , my big respects to that town

    please make those comparisons of the old rio drummers records to the luizao record , to hopefully get what im saying

    at the very least , it gives you another arm in your arsenal of brazilian music expresions and a differant samba aproach
    I found it at 29:06. I like it. Funk, Partido Alto and other stuff ... does it have a name?

  12. #61
    rpjazz , see, you know the name "partido alto" , that is part of it

    i dont really know a name ,it was like a trend, a shift in how to play samba going on in rio where they started to become more bottom aware and more escola da samba aware. they seemed to be gathering inspirations from percusion instruments in the escolas, the surdos, the quicas , the tamburims the repiques....sometimes licks , like the partido alto is a lick you hear in some instruments in the escola

    some elements you might hear as funk enter, but, funk was becoming international so in rio lots of heavy cats like banda black rio , luizao, jorje ben jor , tim maia , started getting funky also. but consider those numbers i reccomended not funk as much as great examples of luizaos innovation in samba

    so, did you hear the differance from the edison machado aproach and the luizao aproach?
    do you see how the sao paulo drummers you saw and the other musicians from there are kind of coming from the edison machado aproach? but nothing like the bezzerra da silva aproach. but i see elements of the bezzerra da silva aproach in luizao

    i see that in the shift of trends in samba, the bass imitates the surdos more, the top is anticipating the one, like the tolecotecos of most of the escolas at that time . luizao came up with a part in the bass that got called partido alto but he also played regular samba with the bass doing surdo figures. he could do all the old school stuff , he recorded with everyone and got a bald spot on his head form the earphones too much.

    so check out popular samba singers in the 70s, they have shifted and start doing the newer trend. like clara nunes:
    .listen to a bunch of popular sambas from that era and see where the beat is coming from. is it like edu ribeiro?

    if you look at the 50s 60s you can hear a lot of singers doing that older style like edison machado....before that it was another style

    so im trying to point out this shift and trend in samba that started with luizao and some others that came into the 70s and started to be the way people would play samba. when i got there it was the norm. you could see the older styles but the new one was really in effect. it was the cutting edge.

    ive never seen chico pineiro play a samba like danial santiogo , the first youtube i brought in...i rarely see edu ribeiro or celso almeida , two excellent top drummers in sao paulo, play the rio style surdo in the bass drum . im sure they can, they chose not to

    the people you bring in to do clinics or your teachers are going to be teaching you what they are experts at . what they are good at. that doesnt mean they know evereything about samba. or , they are emphasising some things important but not really going into others

    i notice people outside of rio teach partido alto almost like its an abheration in samba. but in rio its just another natural interpretation of the percusion of escola da samba in the rhythm section, along with other interpretations that throw the bass and bass drum into surdo patterns and anticipated tolocoteco patterns

    its just another weapon to put in your arsenal of how to play samba...you are on a great track...im just trying to show you what i learned that i am good at...use your ears and you will make the best choice for you

    again, i apologise for bringing in a thread about guitar samba when it was about rhythm aproach to guitar in samba...i have severly neglected to go into harmonic and melodic aproaches , guitar techniques , evolutions and theory behind it. my apologies to all guitarists reading this

  13. #62


    after all is said and done about brazilian music and guitar in brazil, its time to kick back and see what brazil is all about visualy ...

    this just came up on my bons ritmos channal , a dvd that was sold with a cd and this is the more complete versions of the youtube i brought in with some songs edited. there are complete clips on here and new ones

    rpjazz , you have a lot of knowledge about brazilian music so lets see the visceral side of brazil hahahaha i hope you will like this if no one else checks it out hahahaha

  14. #63

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    This is my all time fav latin song, here performed by the great vocalist Karrin Allyson. Just playing the melody on this masterpiece is a challenge in itself and a lesson in rhythmic variation.
    I think guitarist Rod Fleeman is doing a solid job laying down the rhythm on his JP sig Epi.

    Look, no drums! Rhythm within.


  15. #64
    nice

    that lick intro in the A is something you hear a lot of on records in the early 60's.

    elza soares, one of the greatest singers of all time in brazil ( the bbc elected her singer of the milinium from brazil) used it on some songs from back then

    ive heard it came from a kind of cuban mambo influence . rumba mambo had a big affect on jazz too from the 30's (rumba) to the fifities ( mambo).

    nice interpretation

  16. #65

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    Nice version.

    Here's Joao's.


  17. #66

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    enh. No complaints about the performers but these lyrics never translate well into American English. And I can't stand that whole Jon Hendricks thing, it's like an allergic reaction. Not that he did or didn't do the translation, I dunno, but that's the style. and the cats was swingin' skittedy boop boo dah...

    Yeah, I know, it's just me. Here's Caetano and Joao.


  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    enh. No complaints about the performers but these lyrics never translate well into American English. And I can't stand that whole Jon Hendricks thing, it's like an allergic reaction. Not that he did or didn't do the translation, I dunno, but that's the style. and the cats was swingin' skittedy boop boo dah...

    Yeah, I know, it's just me. Here's Caetano and Joao.

    Joao's comping is the s***!

  19. #68

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    yeah, Joao is...uhh, unsurpassable? words fail. Whatever it is that puts me in that zone, Joao is the perfect realization of it. One of those guys that makes you reconsider your assessment of humanity.

  20. #69
    Notice most of the time, João is anticipating the one like I talk about

    the American guy is always leading with the on the one concept

    its important to get the difference and master both approaches

    he is the author , right?

  21. #70

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    I have Jayme Silva as the composer in my repertoire notes.

    Anyway, it was Joao who made it popular, along with all the other great bossa songs. Joao Gilberto is the titel of one of my looongest Spotify playlists. O Pato ("The Duck", I'm not into Jazz because of lyrics) is the coolest song, but the best ever performance (arguably) is Karrin Allysons studio track. I get tears in my eyes when I hear her fantastic rhytmic feel.

    It's easier to improvise over this song, than playing the actual melody on guitar. It's a great lesson.


  22. #71

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    I think there’s such a fundamental link between the Portuguese language and the way Bossa lyrics feel rhythmically.

    Example:

    ‘É o pau, é a pedra, é o fim do caminho’

    Lifting off the beat

    In English the stresses are all wrong -

    ‘A stick, a stone, it’s the end of the road’

    Stress on the one to my ears

    If I ever wanted to play Bossa seriously I’d have to learn Portuguese. Another life maybe.

  23. #72

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    Funny thing is that Karrin from Kansas has done many songs in Portuguese, including an entire album "Songs of Brazil" (check it out). But she does O Pato in English...but then again I'm not into Jazz because of lyrics. Maybe I like the rhytmic flow of the english language...never thought about it

    Here's another samba keeping me busy at the moment, in portuguese for you.

    Every musician from Brazil is called Gilberto


  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think there’s such a fundamental link between the Portuguese language and the way Bossa lyrics feel rhythmically.

    Example:

    ‘É o pau, é a pedra, é o fim do caminho’

    Lifting off the beat

    In English the stresses are all wrong -

    ‘A stick, a stone, it’s the end of the road’

    Stress on the one to my ears

    If I ever wanted to play Bossa seriously I’d have to learn Portuguese. Another life maybe.
    John Zaradin apparently used to tell potential students go come back when they'd learned Brazilian Portuguese...

  25. #74
    ive lived in brazil 30 + years and i butcher the beautiful wonderful language of portuguese on a daily basis, but, at least im losing my english too hahahahahaha

    id like to think , christian , jcat , whitebread and dot, that even if i dont speak really great portuguese, i can eliminate my accent in my playing. i take my playing of brazilian culture more seriously than speaking the language hahahahaha

    but, it is incredably beautiful , the language, when im coming back to brazil, after a month of touring or whatever outside of brazil, i love hearing the portuguese flowing over the air at the gate for the flight to brazil. by the way brazilian portuguese is defferant than portugual portuguese. the slang the accent the flow. yes, this flow seems to be exelent over bossa...its musical . but, i had american freinds telling me "oh, im working with a singer from hungary or croatia or lithuania and when they sing bossa in their language , its so beautiful, almost like portuguese ..." hahahahah no its not...they are hearing beautiful bossa harmonies and melodies and any foreign language sounds exotic to them since its not their native toungue hahahahaha

    where yes, living in the place that innovated the muisic and immersing totaly in the culture , and living there helps a lot, but people do that and dont get it all the time....im a beleiver in if you live and breathe the culture you love and really do the work and get good guidence, you can get it. look how many people sing opera from other cultures or master classical music or jazz from other places of the origins...so dont worry about that aspect, if you want it , live it and breathe it

    bebel gilberto is joao gilbertos daughter so its no surprise she has his name hahaha and that is seu jorje on vocal , i didnt check but i recognise his voice , and the guitar is doing the serious anticipation aproach

    ill check out the other clip soon , jcat, but, from the other clip i can tell karen is plugged in

  26. #75

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    Joao's version of O Pato seems very difficult to get, rhythmically. Same with Allyson's. The guitar comp and the melody work together, but not quite in the way my American ear expects. On the other hand, Bebel's track does the samba comp the way I learned it, from my Brazilian teacher years ago -- and seems more straightforward with respect to how it fits the melody. Meaning, I guess, I could play the Bebel part, but I'd struggle with trying to do Joao's part.

  27. #76
    rpjazz , for sure the first vynil older version you brought in by joao gilberto has a quircky comp , old style (maybe some folk bahia or chorinho comp), but, the one with caetano is definitly more the anticipated one ( downbeat on the "2" of 2/4 , ), and sometimes he carries over the anticipations over the whole bar or bars .

    there is a ketu candomble beat called "avamunha ", that helped me to understand the anticipated accent all the way through . it does it on the opisite hand . all of a sudden, those constant anticipation comps , that pianos do a lot too, or in solo hits, made much more sence. i already caught them, but, after copping "avamunha", it started making sence why.

    jcat, the last karen allyson version i told you i would listen to , is definitly the "on the one " samba comp, like she did on the first clip brought in.

    that is the opisite of what joao gilberto with caetano is doing , and the bebel guitar version ( who doesnt go into constant anticipation hits , just in the cadence leading into "1")

    if i was trying to put together the good arsenal of samba bossa guitar comps , i would learn both aproaches , that would be a great thing

  28. #77
    gees, isnt that cut a variation on " so danca samba " which was duke ellintons "take the a train "?hahahahah

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    rpjazz , for sure the first vynil older version you brought in by joao gilberto has a quircky comp , old style (maybe some folk bahia or chorinho comp), but, the one with caetano is definitly more the anticipated one ( downbeat on the "2" of 2/4 , ), and sometimes he carries over the anticipations over the whole bar or bars .

    there is a ketu candomble beat called "avamunha ", that helped me to understand the anticipated accent all the way through . it does it on the opisite hand . all of a sudden, those constant anticipation comps , that pianos do a lot too, or in solo hits, made much more sence. i already caught them, but, after copping "avamunha", it started making sence why.

    jcat, the last karen allyson version i told you i would listen to , is definitly the "on the one " samba comp, like she did on the first clip brought in.

    that is the opisite of what joao gilberto with caetano is doing , and the bebel guitar version ( who doesnt go into constant anticipation hits , just in the cadence leading into "1")

    if i was trying to put together the good arsenal of samba bossa guitar comps , i would learn both aproaches , that would be a great thing
    .

    It's hard to use words to describe this stuff.

    Here's the way I understand some of it.

    Some tunes have a one bar pattern 16th 8th 16th. Phrased unevenly. The Little Train That Could is close. "i THINK i can, i THINK i can" etc.

    More tunes have a two bar pattern and it can be forward or reverse, like clave.

    I looked up Avamunha on youtube. What I found was a two bar bell pattern. Americans will recognize it as similar to the Bo Diddley beat, except the next to last his is a 16th earlier (thinking in 2/4).

    What I hear in the other drums is "uh_one_e_and_uhhhhh ... uh_one_e_and_uh" etc. Then, the leader starts overlaying other material.

    That bell pattern is used in the Northeast, commonly in Frevo, but you'll hear a slow version of it in the string instrument comp behind Luis Gonzaga, playing baiao. In this case, the drums seem more samba, but the bell is what I've learned is more NE style. Of course, if you play NE style comping against samba, it can sound pretty good. I don't know how common that is in traditional circles.

    Back to the 2 bar pattern. In most fast sambas (and a lot of slow ones) the first bar starts with a 16th rest. The second bar starts right on the one. As in oxox oxxo/ xoxo xxox/ and repeat. That's one variant. Nobody does it all the time. They vary it. Reverse the two bars and you get something you'll hear more often on slower tunes but, also, the occasional fast tune. You'll hear this in the tamborim in the drum set, right hand of guitar and piano. Soloists will phrase with it. Bass fills too. Understanding the drum patterns and phrasing with them is the key.

    For the newbie, it can help to check out the melody in the first 8 of Desafinado. You'll hear that almost all the notes are on upbeats. Another place to hear it is on Joe Pass's album Tudo Bem. They play a double time version of Wave. Late in the track, the nylon guitarist (Oscar Castro Neves, iirc) takes what amounts to a solo by playing a series of fast upbeats on chords. Try to nail the feel of that!

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    gees, isnt that cut a variation on " so danca samba " which was duke ellintons "take the a train "?hahahahah
    Don't know...but your right, there's the "A-train" in "So Danco Samba". Here are some nice examples of improvisations, Jazz-samba style (Trumpet, Vibraphone, Guitar, Scat):


  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Joao's version of O Pato seems very difficult to get, rhythmically. Same with Allyson's. The guitar comp and the melody work together, but not quite in the way my American ear expects. On the other hand, Bebel's track does the samba comp the way I learned it, from my Brazilian teacher years ago -- and seems more straightforward with respect to how it fits the melody. Meaning, I guess, I could play the Bebel part, but I'd struggle with trying to do Joao's part.
    "Novas Ideias" is a very simple, straight forward Samba. Format ABAB with an Intro. It's basically a I-vi-ii-V progression (A-section) and IV iii vi ii (B-section) with minor/major substitution. Free flowing improvisation.

    I'm hooked by the chorus, simple and beautiful to the core what it's all about. I feel....like dancing


    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post

    bebel gilberto is joao gilbertos daughter so its no surprise she has his name hahaha and that is seu jorje on vocal , i didnt check but i recognise his voice
    Wow, Bebel is Joao's daughter, didn't know, thanks
    ....now, don't tell me Gilberto Gil is her cousin
    Last edited by JCat; 05-31-2019 at 05:31 AM.

  32. #81
    Ok rpjazz, I have to breakdown more what you said, but my quick read sais this.

    its the drum part on avamunha, yes, the bell is clave. But the two two stick , two drum " comp" pattern by the two "pi" and "le" drums, has this "uh one" ( there is also a flared up version but it implicates it but not alternate hands).the opposite hand is always up beat like these guitar or pianos get sometimes to enhance the groove.

    the Ketu candomblé beat that is the grandfather of baio, forro, coco , is ilu, it keeps a constant dotted eighth going ( like the first half of clave)while the bell in avamunha , like clave , starts the dotted triplet and second half answers in duple feel.

    now , your good example , oxoxo etc , is actualy from a candomblé de angola hand drum beat " Samba de caboclo " definitely not Yoruba haha.

    now , very interesting thing you said, that it doesn't hold the cadence , but , in the more Afro brazilian way these grooves are played , they hold down the cadence and don't switch.

    remember the docu you said you saw about bossa with menescal, Carlos Lyra , and others talking? I think I saw that, and those guys said they weren't the best guitar players and Joao Gilberto came along with his bahian samba approach and blew them away.

    you are hearing a lot of the "cool school" approach from most of the Brazilian guitarists that their work gets to the states. They shift the cadence around for more freedom, but , they sacrifice deep groove from Afro brazilian samba , influenced by candomblé .

    take your oxoxoxxo/ , and add the anticipation , x/oxoxoxxo/xoxoxxox/. It's already in there as you wrote , but the cadence should be heard starting with the anticipation , and you have samba de caboclo bell part. Where the hands on the drum are implying /oxoxoxxo/

    remenber , chorinho started with peixinguinho practicing and performing at the bar in tia Ciabatta's candomblé house in rio. She came from bahia. The samba is linked to candomblé. Those grooves never shift cadence, as many samba variations also don't switch cadence, like pagode, or samba da roda. But bossa and samba jazz do float on top depending on who is playing it.

    Actualy, you can keep cadence but change up comp approaches to sound like it's shifting but it's not. It's like having a bunch of these comp approaches in your arsenal , they come from chorinho, candomblé , and natural styles evolving, and you have freedom to interact these approaches in the groove with the rhythm section in an open field improv with an eye on the groove at all times...a lot of cool fun, right?

    great you are checking out northeast musics. Rich in Rhythms dances and melodies. Don't forget bahian samba and bahian guitar. Bahia us northeast too, and crosses with Pernambuco in the interior, there are parralels in slavery times and the cultures that developed in Brazil. Coco raizes de arcoverde is a cousin tô samba da roda , and coco is pre forro baião

    jcat, haha yeah Gilberto Gil isn't related haha

  33. #82
    One thing I'm hearing in João Gilberto first version of "pato" , in his comps, that are quircky, some kind of folk bahian references, and he is shifting a lot.

    his second version is more the x/oxoxoxxo/xoxoxxox/oxoxoxxo/xoxoxxox/ with sometime anticipating all the way avamunha style

    rpjazz, check out "ILU Ketu candomblé " for the grandfather of baião and forro, it's a mind blowing rhythm

  34. #83
    Here is the heavy thing about ilu, the bell has some secrets, and the pi and le comping two stick drum parts have other secrets and the solo rum has other secrets.

    if you take the pé and le two stick drum parts and slow it way down and the opisute hand has that bossa cadence of the floating rim click , coming in after the down beat. Most bossa has it on the downbeat , but some come in the up beat ( which Christian pointed out a jazz song that uses this cadence also, it is Afro diaspórica)

    so that mysterious almost slow triplet cadence has a root . It's in frevo and one of the cadences of olodum

    these candomblé roots have lots of secrets to our modern cadences in our popular musics, in the drum bearts, the bell parts and solo cadences.

    man, this is the fun, it never ends, there are always new discoveries waiting to happen to tweak these grooves

    i can't wait to record a bop or samba or play it on the bandstand, or practice in my drum space, to get a chance to nail it one more time,it never gets old.....this is why I play music forever

  35. #84

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    One of the guys I learned from (a Brazilian) said that authentic Brazilian samba starts on the syncopated bar of the two bar figure - so if one bar starts on the beat and one bar starts off the beat, the latter will go first....

  36. #85
    I think in many ways, you all who had teachers , or some heightened interest in brazilian music, have gotten this material.

    your teacher seems to imply what I'm saying, and , rpjazz, your oxox pattern seems on point.

    for sure there is a body of samba work that starts on the downbeat too, chorinho has most of the string approaches to comping samba imbedded.

    i think it's healthy to dissect over and over, and pick what works for you...

    as a gringo, I was learning these tamborim flips how they do it in rio samba. I kept watching the escolas over and over, and I figured I'd learn this flip thing three different ways in case my first try was wrong..and that's it as a person outside of Brazil, you have to try a bunch of approaches to find the right one, and beleive me most Brazilians are not experts either , for sure they come from different areas with different concepts.

    its the same in jazz, samba and jazz are huge , lots of styles, it's great to dive in and find out

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    One of the guys I learned from (a Brazilian) said that authentic Brazilian samba starts on the syncopated bar of the two bar figure - so if one bar starts on the beat and one bar starts off the beat, the latter will go first....
    It depends on the tune.

    Most fast sambas are syncopated bar first. Check out, for example, Minha Saudade. It's hard to find a fast one that isn't.

    But, if you listen to Leny Andrade's "Rio" you'll hear, I think, non-syncopated bar first, at least in part of the tune. The comping on Rio is trickier than it might seem at first. BTW, I think there's a chart of that arrangement, or similar, in the Latin Real Book iirc.

    And, it's not son clave. Clave never turns around, but the tamborim pattern sometimes does. You can hear the tamborim pattern turn around just before the melody in Ave Rara and in the intro of Aqui Oh.

    E Nada Mais, played about 76bpm in 2/4 is non syncopated first.

    Slow tunes can be either way. Caminhos Cruzados feels non-syncopated first. Ela E Carioca feels better to me syncopated at 68bpm.

    Some Brazilians do talk about the tamborim pattern in this way, i.e. as forward or reverse. But, other Brazilians do not. They focus on "every tune is different".

    I think it's helpful to get a group, not experienced in samba, organized and on the same page. It gets the comping consistent among the drums and chord instruments. It affects how the melody players phrase.

    But, a more experienced group intuits it, I think. Or maybe, the drummer sets it up and the cognesenti follow.

    And, then, of course, there are tunes with one bar patterns and tunes that don't fit the tamborim paradigm. For example, A Ra is done in various ways. One of those ways is common, based on a NE rhythm that some call calango and others may call Donato-style. Emphasizes two-and in the bass. Grooves like mad and you can overlay various comping patterns.

    It's broad and deep. Pretty much everything is "it's this, except when it's something else".

  38. #87

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    TBF I think he was outlining a rule of thumb rather than a general principle.

  39. #88

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    Joao often leads on the '1' of course...

  40. #89

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    I hear a lot of Joao as a one bar pattern. Often, xo xo ox oo. But, he stretches and compresses the time, weaving his voice in and out to create something more subtle.

    As we've discussed elsewhere, if you play it as written, mathematically perfect, it won't groove properly. The groove is in the cracks.

  41. #90
    rpjazz, if that x is anticipated, that is the exact left hand of the avamunha "pi" "le" ( both drums play the same thing while the "rum" solos and the bell plays very close to the pi and le) in ketu candomble ( as i said there is a flared up version of the pi and le so the left hand plays something else but the ontop is the same)

    good find

    i beleive a lot of guitar comps are implications of these rhythm cadences , with variations that evolove as styles and trends

    joao gilberto is from bahia and knew a lot of the folk elements from there. that is what fascinated menescal and lyra and the others, he had a new swing for them...they are good too but they knew they werent heavy duty players

    i mentioned before, its the cats after the initial bossa famous people , who were in rio, great players some would be musical directors for djavon or ivan linns (luis avelar and gilson peranzzetta) , studio bass players like luizao who was also famous with elis regina, with piano mariano, banda black rio, these cats were heavy players, could play great jazz, ive played jazz with some of those guys, and samba. they took bossa samba to another leval with playing and writing too

  42. #91

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    Nelson Faria does an interview program. I've seen his programs with Guinga and Romero Lubambo.
    Portuguese with English subtitles and a lot of playing. It's on youtube.

    With Romero, they talk a fair amount about the influence of American jazz. They can both sing Wes' solo on Round Midnight. Even the original Bossa players listened to American jazz. But, more for chord voicings than rhythms. The rhythms come right out of the bateria.

    I came at this by being able to read and getting a lot from books and charts. Now, years later, I don't recommend that approach. The best way is to listen to the Brazilian giants. There's plenty of video and audio where you can hear the parts clearly. In fact, Faria and Lubambo play two songs that are pretty simple and which really show the style -- For Donato (which I'm going to have to transcribe!) which is a Trio Da Paz tune and Rio (by Nelson Faria). You can see their hands and youtube lets you slow it down. That's your lesson.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    .

    It's hard to use words to describe this stuff.

    Here's the way I understand some of it.

    Some tunes have a one bar pattern 16th 8th 16th. Phrased unevenly. The Little Train That Could is close. "i THINK i can, i THINK i can" etc.

    More tunes have a two bar pattern and it can be forward or reverse, like clave.

    I looked up Avamunha on youtube. What I found was a two bar bell pattern. Americans will recognize it as similar to the Bo Diddley beat, except the next to last his is a 16th earlier (thinking in 2/4).

    What I hear in the other drums is "uh_one_e_and_uhhhhh ... uh_one_e_and_uh" etc. Then, the leader starts overlaying other material.
    The avamunha thing I found is built on what cubans call son clave, in what we call 3-2 in the US.

    yeah, this stuff is hard to describe in English with the usual counting syllables and mnemonics. Konokol syllables work pretty well. You don't have to do the whole every permutation of every rhythmic cycle thing to start using them, they work great right out of the box.

    So for example the three-side of son clave becomes Takita Takita Taka -- an eight beat cycle grouped 3-3-2. hey hey, tu way pocky way. Universal groove, it's everywhere, milonga, mambo, bluegrass banjo, countless Arabic grooves, etc ad infinitum. Just feels great, organic, one wonders if there's some neurological basis.

    For the full 16 beat 3-2 son clave cycle -- Takita Takita Takadimi Taka Takadimi.

    here's a common balkan dance groove, seven beat cycle, strangely organic (there's a point relevant to samba) --

    Taka Taka Takita -- 2-2-3

    ok, see if this rings a bell

    kaTaka | Taka Taka Takita Taka Taka Takita taka |

    These things are pan-cultural, they appear in different permutations various times and places, but somehow connected. A mystery!

    There's also the whole Arabic/Persian/Turkish etc counting/mnemonic thing, syllables vary by culture and genre, pick out ones you like.

    It's weird, Europeans happily adopted place value notation, astronomy, algebra, and to a lesser extent, bathing, but we're still stuck with a-one-a and a-two-a... yes, exaggerating for comic effect. But it is weird, one-ee-and-uh two-ee has its uses but konokol and the Arabic methods are infinitely superior for internalizing groove.

    ok enough typing for now. hopefully it's useful

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    The avamunha thing I found is built on what cubans call son clave, in what we call 3-2 in the US.

    yeah, this stuff is hard to describe in English with the usual counting syllables and mnemonics. Konokol syllables work pretty well. You don't have to do the whole every permutation of every rhythmic cycle thing to start using them, they work great right out of the box.

    So for example the three-side of son clave becomes Takita Takita Taka -- an eight beat cycle grouped 3-3-2. hey hey, tu way pocky way. Universal groove, it's everywhere, milonga, mambo, bluegrass banjo, countless Arabic grooves, etc ad infinitum. Just feels great, organic, one wonders if there's some neurological basis.

    For the full 16 beat 3-2 son clave cycle -- Takita Takita Takadimi Taka Takadimi.

    here's a common balkan dance groove, seven beat cycle, strangely organic (there's a point relevant to samba) --

    Taka Taka Takita -- 2-2-3

    ok, see if this rings a bell

    kaTaka | Taka Taka Takita Taka Taka Takita taka |

    These things are pan-cultural, they appear in different permutations various times and places, but somehow connected. A mystery!

    There's also the whole Arabic/Persian/Turkish etc counting/mnemonic thing, syllables vary by culture and genre, pick out ones you like.

    It's weird, Europeans happily adopted place value notation, astronomy, algebra, and to a lesser extent, bathing, but we're still stuck with a-one-a and a-two-a... yes, exaggerating for comic effect. But it is weird, one-ee-and-uh two-ee has its uses but konokol and the Arabic methods are infinitely superior for internalizing groove.

    ok enough typing for now. hopefully it's useful
    Yes! I hadn't been exposed to that before. Thanks!

  45. #94

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    Here's me doing O Pato with a little improvisation twist. -Do you recognize the tunes?
    O Pato is the mother of good groove. Endless opportunities for rhythmic variation.