The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    what i would like to pass on here , especially since i didnt do demonstrating the range and depth of brazil samba guitarists really as well as i could have , hahaha, is that this aproach i started with danial santiago , almost that " telecoteco" anticipated tamburim, against a hard bass drum beat on the 2 , also by luizao on his fundimental rio aproach on guitar , as he plays overdub over his innovative bass style , the bezzera da silva rio favela aproach and there are fundimental kicks and cadences that are simple and groovy to cop , the actual escola da samba and dancers with their heavy surdo bass and tamburim killer riffs , is :

    the basic fundimental cadence that is this rio de janeiro kind of modern thing ( they also innovated most of the other samba styles except bahia) , and an interesting cadence to cop on the jazz guitar playing samba . this is the end game, most all weddings , restaraunt gigs, shopping mall gigs etc have a conveniant place to incert a bossa nova or a few .

    most people outside of rio , play an older hit starting on the one , best described by that moment in the disney cartoon where donald duck goes to rio , copacabana with the parrot ze carioca and a cachaca hits donald and instruments start roaring into a samba , and its that start on the one beat .

    if you cop this other cadence and make it a groove at any tempo, pick your favorite boassa that seems to come in on the anticipation and do this groove and solo in that cadence and it is just a simple differant way to play a bossa most of us have all played on gigs. and we are one thing in common, rhythm section players and if you can get a drummer that plays the rio style and the bass player in the luizao style, you can turn any restaraunt , or wedding or club gig into a special private magic groove time land between you and the other rhythm section players and they wont even know it ...hahahha

    i talk about the bahian thing and this is the serious rural roots of samba , and , there is a lot of secrets and codes in there:



    talk can only go so far , you have to see this stuff and hear it

    and here is where modern urban pelorinho salvador bahia has taken samba, into samba reggai , bloco afro , and a modern guitar


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  3. #27

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    A couple of things that might be helpful.

    Marco Pereira wrote a book of Brazilian guitar styles called Ritmos Brasilieros. It has a short but meaningful section on Telecoteco. The comps are written out in standard notation. There is a CD which has all the notated material played at a pretty brisk tempo. It's helpful to slow it down.

    There are both one bar and two bar patterns in samba. The two bar patterns can be played forward or reverse, comparable to clave in that respect.

    There is a video on Netflix about the original Bossa Nova players which makes the point that every guitarist had his own way of playing the grooves.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    what i would like to pass on here , especially since i didnt do demonstrating the range and depth of brazil samba guitarists really as well as i could have , hahaha, is that this aproach i started with danial santiago , almost that " telecoteco" anticipated tamburim, against a hard bass drum beat on the 2 , also by luizao on his fundimental rio aproach on guitar , as he plays overdub over his innovative bass style , the bezzera da silva rio favela aproach and there are fundimental kicks and cadences that are simple and groovy to cop , the actual escola da samba and dancers with their heavy surdo bass and tamburim killer riffs , is :

    the basic fundimental cadence that is this rio de janeiro kind of modern thing ( they also innovated most of the other samba styles except bahia) , and an interesting cadence to cop on the jazz guitar playing samba . this is the end game, most all weddings , restaraunt gigs, shopping mall gigs etc have a conveniant place to incert a bossa nova or a few .

    most people outside of rio , play an older hit starting on the one , best described by that moment in the disney cartoon where donald duck goes to rio , copacabana with the parrot ze carioca and a cachaca hits donald and instruments start roaring into a samba , and its that start on the one beat .

    if you cop this other cadence and make it a groove at any tempo, pick your favorite boassa that seems to come in on the anticipation and do this groove and solo in that cadence and it is just a simple differant way to play a bossa most of us have all played on gigs. and we are one thing in common, rhythm section players and if you can get a drummer that plays the rio style and the bass player in the luizao style, you can turn any restaraunt , or wedding or club gig into a special private magic groove time land between you and the other rhythm section players and they wont even know it ...hahahha[/url]
    That word ‘if’ does a lot of work here :-)

    Thanks, will dig into this when I’ve unpacked the info in your other posts :-)

  5. #29
    christian , from seeing your videos i know you have all the facility to cop these things if you want...its really more about fun and messing around with stuff you already know, for example just turning the cadence you are used to around.

    rpjazz , that sounds like a great book and cd . the thing that book cant tell you is that the "tolecoteco " pattern from the old chorinhos and early sambas could be on the beat or anticipating or even coming in after , but..... .

    for the majority of escola de sambas of rio , the "tolecoteco" cadence comes in on the anticipation type of cadence. of course they have lots of other cadences like the "careteiro "( ok this is courtesy of my son sitting here watching tv who is an expert tamburim player), which is that explosive seeming like 16th note machine gun runs.

    excuse me for keeping on refering back to the anticipation tamburim cadence, but, if the books or teachers arnt conveying that this is a dominant sound right now in rio samba ( it could change , i know this), and they dont convey the bezzera da silva type samba which really is a heavy code and cadence to plug into , and make it clear this is for a dance , then they are not giving all the information.

    which is understandable , lots of brazilian musicians and teachers didnt come from rio, but, rio is the center of samba with the understanding it came from bahia .

    and im making a big deal about it because, its the thing that hit me like a ton of bricks when i got there, that that cadence was the current cutting edge rio sound with a surdo heavy on the second beat not dado dado dado. and i had to work on turning around my whole aproach .

    the question i would want to ask all those drummers showing the jackhammer samba at that clinic, if they played with luizao maia ? because the jack hammer samba doesnt compliment the luizao aproach.he recorded all styles of samba with everyone , but, his songs feature what he wanted to push about how samba should sound in the rhythm section, a new way to play it

    and yeah, samba is as big as jazz with so many eras , and styles , and if you come in playing one style era with people who play another, its going to not mesh as well as if everyone is in the same direction.

    so , a big question as you progress in samba and become familiar with all its rich varied styles, is, what is your choice of style to play ? i can honestly say, i play and love the rio style the most with the tolecoteco on the anticipation and heavy surdo on the two in the bass drum , then i play a lot of bahian bloco afro styles because im playing with some of those guys from olodum in salvador pelorinho. those are my preferences, but i do have the jack hammer groove down and know how to adjust to other styles

    and its good to hear us discussing these differant styles and aproaches for everyone to know , glad you pointed these things out too rpjazz , samba is huge and has a lot of variety of aproaches , its best to have a bunch of looks at samba, and that is true of jazz and cuban music and funk too

    i also apologise for the wrong title , it should have included "the rhythms of samba guitar" or something, ive done a great disservice to not being able to address the rich harmonic story that is going on and what that is all about and how important that must be for guitarists playing samba...please accept my humble apology , guitarists reading this

  6. #30

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    One important bit of feedback I got on comping Bossa, which also applies to Samba, is that every song is different.

    That may be an exaggeration, but it does point out that the original version had a pattern and it might be worthwhile to learn it.

    Antonio Adolfo also has a book out which explains a lot of these issues and includes specifics on how the usual instruments should mesh in the rhythm section. I think it's this one.

    Brazilian Music Workshop: Book & CD by Antonio Adolfo, Paperback | Barnes & Noble(R)

    Iirc, he does not tell the guitarist to abandon the thumb. Rather, he has it doubling the bass. He also has it repeating the root if the fifth is below the range of the instrument.

    For players who didn't absorb this music at an impressionable age, the issue, I think, is being able to feel it the Brazilian way. That can be elusive (trust me). In bringing things back to the foundation, this thread can be very helpful. Thanks.

  7. #31
    rpjazz, you are keeping the discusion going and contributing , thank you, you too christian

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks for posting this! Just terrific. And you can hear all the parts you need. So, in this case, at around 3:20, you hear the guitar playing the basic tamborim pattern without creating a sound on every 16th (which the guitarist backing up Hamilton De Hollanda was doing, with a combination of the thumb and various fingers). The pandeiro and tamborim drum fill in the blanks. That's the Brazilian feel -- or, at least, one important one.
    The first part has that feel where it seems to be rushing all the time. Some players do that, some don't, in my experience. I've heard it in both Rio and Sao Paulo players. I've had the experience of playing a tune I knew well with players who went into that "rushing" thing and I had to stop playing. I couldn't feel where the time was. It felt like outer space.

    The guitar thing at 3:00 doesn't have the sense of rushing, although it's slower to begin with. The outro at around 4:55 isolates the tamborim pattern as played on the guitar.

  9. #33
    rpjazz, you have to buy this to hear it , right? i cant seem to hear anything

    im curious, rp, are you playing profesionaly in san francisco? are you playing with brazilian musicians profesionaly ? or mostly at the workshops?

    if you work profesionaly, do you get to do gigs playing brazilian music or weddings or restaurants where you play bossas?

    you seem to have a good knowledge of aspects of brazilian music and have studied with brazilian musicians

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    rpjazz, you have to buy this to hear it , right? i cant seem to hear anything

    Which one can't you hear? I'll help if I can.

    Im curious, rp, are you playing profesionaly in san francisco? are you playing with brazilian musicians profesionaly ? or mostly at the workshops?


    I'm a semi-pro player. Most of my gigs are American jazz, with horns and reading. I get the occasional casual, which are usually American tunes and Bossa Nova songs.

    I have gigged with a number of the local Brazilian players, but not regularly.


    you seem to have a good knowledge of aspects of brazilian music and have studied with brazilian musicians
    I've been studying and playing Brazilian music for about 15 years, pretty intensively. I play with similarly inclined musicians twice a week, but these are jams and workshops (unlike a jam,we'll go over things and play stuff that can't easily be read) not gigs, for the most part.

    I have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to study with a number of Brazilian Masters who come through the area. My group will have a Master come in for a group lesson whenever we can. We have done that quite a few times now.

  11. #35
    Sounds like you are coming from a very good trajectory, in your regular jazz reading gigs and all these things you are doing with brazilian music. You have to create your space with brazilian music in the states, and, the more you create your space with it, the more professional opportunities present themselves and opportunities to be next to top leval players. Good luck

    I can't figure out how to get audio on your link , I go there and I only see how to buy it

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    Sounds like you are coming from a very good trajectory, in your regular jazz reading gigs and all these things you are doing with brazilian music. You have to create your space with brazilian music in the states, and, the more you create your space with it, the more professional opportunities present themselves and opportunities to be next to top leval players. Good luck

    I can't figure out how to get audio on your link , I go there and I only see how to buy it
    Right. The Pereira and Adolfo links are to books that I bought. I don't know of a free version.

    There are some other communities of musicians playing Brazilian music in the States. NYC, of course, has some top players. The Trio Da Paz guys (Romero Lubambo, Duduka De Fonseca and Nilson Matta), Vitor Goncalves, Chico Pinheiro, Eduardo Belo and I think Rafa Barrata is NYC based now. Helio Alves. Mauricio Zottarelli. Rob Curto for Forro. Ari Hoenig is an American who gigs with some of them -- great drummer. Every one of these guys is worth checking out.

    There are various jazz and percussion groups in San Diego, LA, Portland, Seattle and Boulder. I am aware of some guys in Washington DC that I heard on record and sounded great.

    Our local jazz station was playing Spok Frevo Orquestra recently. He's come to town and taught as well.

  13. #37

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    wow great thread. I don't have much to contribute other than I love the music and have struggled with the same things I suppose every non-native struggles with.

    There's a great documentary on Paulinho, "Meu Tempo E' Hoje" (kludged diacritical, yes, dunno how to do the accent thingie). Hard to find in the US (I got it through interlibrary loan) but it does show up on Amazon occasionally. If your Portuguese is up to it the whole thing is on youtube -- the DVD has English subtitles.

    among other wonders there's a bit with Paulinho on guitar and Elton Medeiros playing a box of matches. Guitar, matchbox, vocals, the groove is f'ing transcendental. I'd had the soundtrack CD a while before I saw the movie, played it over and over wondering what the hell is that percussion? Oh, it's a matchbox. anyway it's very much worth tracking down.

    The soundtrack CD has the full performances, the film just clips.

    There are two Mika Kaurismaki documentaries -- Moro No Brasil, general overview but no choro, and Brasileirinho, all choro -- the latter is currently available on Amazon, it's the best of the two, not to be missed if you haven't seen it.

    tangential, but not entirely OT -- anybody play pandeiro?

  14. #38
    thanks for the info whitebread , those docus sound interesting .i play pandeiro , but, i would need a month to get the real chops together , but i know the basics of some of the grooves. my son plays really well...ive been living in brazil 30 = years, came there after 8 years in new york

    yes, rp jazz, you have sussed out the other scenes in the usa, people who love this music always want to know who else is plugged in if you arnt in brazil

    dont forget miami hahaha



    that is diogo brown and phill fest the same guys on an eraliar youtube i brought in, diogo is one of the strongest practicioners and torch bearers of the luizao maia bass innovation of samba, and he lives in miami and phill is the son of icon manfredo fest. lots of brazilians have immigrated to miami so there is a small scene .percusionist sammy figueira , one of the conga greats is into brazilian music and brings in great people


    spok frevo , oh yeah, brazil is certainly a lot more than just samba...i lived in recife a little bit and played with about 4 guys who were in spok frevo, all great players, can play really good jazz.recife has frevo , coco , maracatu, cavalo marinho, caboclinho , and broke the spectacular chico science mangue beat scene, its like going to another country. its a giant subject looking at music besides samba in brazil. most all those rhythms have candomble roots in the rhythm foundations

  15. #39

    check out the jazz chops of one of the people in the founding formation of spok frevo, fabinho costa on trumpet

    the alto sax guy you dont get to hear was also in that founding formation, gustavo anacleto , is now in japan

    the piano is ranieri oliveira now in rio playing for maria rita and writing novela sound tracks

    and the bass is my dearly recently6 departed freind and partner, paulo russo , one of the greatest bass players anywhere , ask any of the people you bring in on your clinics , rpjazz , if they know who paulo russo is


    here we are doing my interpretation of mangue beat in a jazz situation

    rpjazz, you know a lot about various musicians and styles of brazil , i at least want to turn you on to my lable , bons ritmos, lots of people i talk about are on various cds and i cover lots of brazilian styles, two cds were billboard world music charting cds , which is where most brazilian stars get on billboard, the world music section

    Bons Ritmos
    - YouTube


    they are there in their entirety , im not selling anything, its there for anyone to check out the wonderful music and musicians i have been lucky to record on my trajectory. you have a great affinity for brazilian music so maybe you will find something you like. you too christian and whitebread

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    thanks for the info whitebread , those docus sound interesting .i play pandeiro , but, i would need a month to get the real chops together , but i know the basics of some of the grooves. my son plays really well...ive been living in brazil 30 = years, came there after 8 years in new york
    yeah, I think you'd get off on the Paulinho thing. He never explains how he became "da Viola", never heard him play one, that seems to be more a fados instrument. Dunno, do they ever use those in samba?

    OK, Pandeiro, I never could sus out the ergonomics of it. I learned a few basic grooves off a Ney Rosauro video maybe 15 years ago but hit a wall.

    There seem to be two completely opposite approaches. Rosauro holds the pandeiro mostly steady, and gets the finger and heel strokes by flexing/extending the right wrist.

    Other players hold the cupped right hand mostly steady, and get the finger and heel strokes by rocking the pandeiro, rotating the left forearm.

    The Rosauro way is easier to learn but puts a lot of stress on the right wrist.

    Rocking the pandeiro is much easier on the right wrist, but can be a coordination nightmare past the basic samba patterns because the thumb's trying to hit a moving target.

    Now that I've typed this it sounds kind of stupid but I couldn't figure it out.
    So how do you do it? Any comments welcome, profuse apologies for the thread detour.

    btw these clips are great. Also led me to a bunch of Dominguinhos clips but I guess that's another topic.

  17. #41
    whitebread

    nothing bad at all what you are writing

    i do a couple of ways, one is the fingers more involved , always rocking it off the heel of the hand. i try to get a little motion in the hand holding the pandeiro , like you mentioned, try to feel a 16 note thing

    the other way, especialy if it gets faster is a rocking thing but not the 16 noter, more the cadence fundimentals .

    im not an expert but i can handle slow tempos . the thing is , too much work risks straining the holding hand and that would affect my drumming. i kind of went through learning a bunch of the percusion, but, had to know i couldnt let anything mess up my drum stick holding hands, that is my bread and butter. but, i have knowledge of a lot of the percusions. i started on bongos and congas so skin on skin is part of my background

    if i was throwing myself back into samba pandeiro to get my chops up, put on my elza soares stuff ( the greatest samba singer of all time), put on a lot of the bezzera da silva , try to work up to escola de samba tempo and be checking some of the youtubes that have classes or just shows some of the monsters

    there are various other pandeiro rhythms also,like in coco , repente , capoeira

    man,i didnt know the "paulinho" meant paulinho da viola, yes, he is incredable and i think i saw that one too

    rpjazz, i think i saw the bossa one too, carlos lyra, menescal, others and they actualy said they didnt consider themselves great players but joao gilberto came from bahia and had a new aproach( its actualy from a folk loric groove in bahia , some kind of samba da roda aprach) and they all jumped on it.

    they all tried to bend over backwards to say bossa wasnt from jazz but had lots bolero and other stuff but gilberto gil put in perspective saying its just another form of samba and i agree totaly

    important bossa precursers to check out are dorival cayme, johnny alf ,laurindo almeida and moacir santos, the last two ended up in hollywood doing sound tracks

  18. #42


    speaking of pandeiro hahaha

    this isnt guitar , but, its something that really blows my mind

    this is aurinha do coco with a great example of "coco", just voice and percusion and also is a great insight into the soul of brazil especialy the north east

    there are lots of coco styles and i have helped to produce coco raizes do arcoverde , a wonderful group but check out aurinha and an urban recife coco. i think her daughter andreza is on the pandeiro

    i love love love this music, just check that groove out

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos

    im not an expert but i can handle slow tempos . the thing is , too much work risks straining the holding hand and that would affect my drumming. i kind of went through learning a bunch of the percusion, but, had to know i couldnt let anything mess up my drum stick holding hands, that is my bread and butter. but, i have knowledge of a lot of the percusions. i started on bongos and congas so skin on skin is part of my background
    hey thank you! That does answer this question that's been bugging me for years. I quit practicing it because it was stressing out my hands, and I couldn't come up with an approach that didn't. I can't afford injuries (been there, done that) but thought I must be doing something fundamentally wrong.

    yeah, Paulinho da Viola, one of my idols. I guess there are a lot of paulinhos -- used to have a joke that everyone in Brasil was name Paulo, or Ze. And the rest were named Ze Paulo.

    yeah bossa is samba -- sure you don't get the Rachmaninov / Chopin thing in the escola samba but its lineage is pretty obvious. I think it got that "jazz" label by association with Getz and the west coast thing and maybe a little resentment from traditionalists, but it's samba.

    edit: another clip up while I was typing. aaah man...I am fulfilled! lol

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    whitebread

    important bossa precursers to check out are dorival cayme, johnny alf ,laurindo almeida and moacir santos, the last two ended up in hollywood doing sound tracks
    My teacher thought that Johnny Alf is a relatively unsung hero of Bossa Nova -- that some of the innovations were his. Moacir Santos, I believe, worked for Lalo Schifrin. I have April Child in my band book ... there are great versions by Moacir and by Chico Pinheiro on youtube. Moacir's harmony is very sophisticated. Amazing musician.

    Dorival Caymmi wrote in an older style (his era). His son, Dori, is a great guitarist, singer and arranger. I believe Dori may have a Grammy from an album of arrangements of movie songs. The album I'd recommend of his is Kicking Cans. I have Migration in my book. He has his own sense of groove and harmony and his own way of playing guitar.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos


    speaking of pandeiro hahaha

    this isnt guitar , but, its something that really blows my mind

    this is aurinha do coco with a great example of "coco", just voice and percusion and also is a great insight into the soul of brazil especialy the north east

    there are lots of coco styles and i have helped to produce coco raizes do arcoverde , a wonderful group but check out aurinha and an urban recife coco. i think her daughter andreza is on the pandeiro

    i love love love this music, just check that groove out
    My teacher's opinion was that Bossa Nova is an era, not a rhythm. The rhythm, in his view, is samba.

    The story goes that they were playing in Rio apartments and couldn't make too much noise, so they developed a quiet way of playing medium tempo samba. So, you hear a relatively sparse tamborim, non-busy guitar parts etc. They were influenced by American jazz, supposedly passing around an album of Barney Kessel with Julie London, from which they lifted "jazz chords" and then applied that to the quiet samba. Among other influences, of course.

    So, it's samba. There are many styles of samba. Arguably, Bossa is an important one.

    On the subject of Pandeiro: different ways of doing it. For those starting out, a key thing is to get a pandeiro that is light as a feather - or lighter. "Choro Pandeiro" I believe refers to the lighter ones. About 10 inches. If, like I did, you buy a larger, heavier pandeiro, it is surprisingly difficult to play very long. I stopped because of problems with my thumb joints.

    The Pandeiro looks like a tambourine, but it's completely different. The jingles are damped, for one thing. The skin is more resonant than for a typical tambourine. There may be other differences.

    Played well, a pandeiro can trade 4s with a full drumset and the pandeiro can hold its own. Quite amazing, but you can check it out on youtube.

  22. #46
    oh man, april child is the jam , very cool you have it in your book and the cadence im talking about is right all up in his line. you could be working on that cadence all through the rhythm section solos and your solo

    i think chico pineiro missed the whole cadence of the line in his groove aproach of the over all song, its exactly doving the tolecoteco anticipated and implaying a surdo pattern, all in the line, i dont hear chico getting it ,im going to tell you right now , rjpjaz, quiet as is kept, there is a rivalry between sao paulo and rio about samba, count me in on the side of rio all the way hahahaha, and lets face it, sao paulo cant come close to rio in tradition and history and movements of samba hahahaha .

    yes, johny alf is very very hip

    dorival has another son too that plays real nice flute, and a daughter who sings. he is from an older style , as you point out, wrote "ou que que baiana tem" and carmen miranda made it famous , but i hear a beautiful harmonic concept in his songs that imply a sophistication where bossa arrived. when i first got to rio in 86, carnival was in full swing , blowing my mind and one of my favorite escolas , mangueira had dorival cayeme write their escola song. i have brought many carnival songs of the escolas and forgot most of them but i can remember the refrain from dorivals song to this day.

    a lot of people in brazil and the states have slept on laurindo almeida

  23. #47
    yes, i can see how your teacher would describe bossa as an era

    it became very comercialised to the point real estate advertisers were using as a selling work " bossas condominiums, you will love it"

    lots of songs drifted into syrupy sleepiness , the best are pristine

    but , what happened is, its the musicians after who took bossa to an incredable instrumental leval. im not talking about going after american jazz bossa nova, im talking about high leval players who became music directors for stars like gilson peranzzetta for ivan linns or luis avelar for djavan, luizao maia shifted in his innovations that everyone playing samba bossa went after, in the comercial bossa era , it hadnt been developed.

    so the heavy young cats in rio who came after the jobims, morais, baden powell ( there is a great guitarist we could talk about) , would sometimes be their side men or work with the top singers , and they were pushing the playing of bossa samba , the whole rhythm section is shifting in rio , and the compositions of gilson , luizao, barrosinho of banda black rio ( he was my first employer in rio) , luiz avelar when he wanted to stretch out, etc were ferocous. the predacesors wrote unbeleivable gems and these high leval players in rio were taking it to a monster playing leval . not unlike jazz when great writers did stuff but they wernt the highest leval players

    about the whole jazz thing, these great bossa artists were influenced by villa lobos for modern harmony as much as anyone, and, jazz influenced the whole world , there is nothing demeaning about being influenced by jazz, but, plenty of anti americanism seeps in sometimes ,so , there are some who want to distance themselves from any notion that their music is americanised. but, i dont think bossa is as much a result of american jazz as a lot of people would think, but it sure had an influence , how could it not, it influenced a lot of other things in the world at that time. bossa became famous in america and that is when everyone jumped on board

    in truth, i think the french movie black orpheus had a bigger influence for putting bossa out on the world. it won lots of oscars and was famous and it had a giant samba the first scene that morphed into a bossa "tristeza nao tem fim,felicadade sim". so , for me, i could never seperate bossa from a giant sambao, they go together as far as im concerned hahahahaha

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    oh man, april child is the jam , very cool you have it in your book and the cadence im talking about is right all up in his line. you could be working on that cadence all through the rhythm section solos and your solo

    i think chico pineiro missed the whole cadence of the line in his groove aproach of the over all song, its exactly doving the tolecoteco anticipated and implaying a surdo pattern, all in the line, i dont hear chico getting it ,im going to tell you right now , rjpjaz, quiet as is kept, there is a rivalry between sao paulo and rio about samba, count me in on the side of rio all the way hahahaha, and lets face it, sao paulo cant come close to rio in tradition and history and movements of samba hahahaha .
    Moacir developed a groove for April Child he called "Mojo". You can hear it clearly on his version. I think Chico added one little hit at the end, but it's basically the same groove. Chico doesn't go into samba until the solo section. I don't know any other tune that uses Mojo, but I'd like to. It's a terrific groove.

    Dorival, as you say, was brilliant. I didn't mean to diminish that in the slightest. I should probably listen to more of his work. I'm a big fan of Dori. I'm less familiar with his siblings' work.

    In the last couple of years I've heard Andre Mehmari and Hamilton Godoy, live. I believe both Sao Paulo guys. They both groove deep, but they don't play anything alike. What I heard Mehmari do on keys reminded me of Chico's comping on guitar. Also a Paulista. I can't figure out what the difference is in Sao Paulo vs Rio samba styles. Of course, I'd bet that any of them can play every which way.

  25. #49
    the mojo part is ingrained in his arrangement of the head, but, check the line , it seems it got an anticipation thing going , implying tolecoteco. and , on moacir, when he goes to the solo, there is even a tamborim playing the tolecoteco with that anticipation thing .

    not so much with chico , im not saying he is not a good musician , he is a great musician, but they dont cop the hard luizao rio groove on their solo . lets show everyone ( everyone means the two or three people checking in hahaha):

    chico


    moacir


    joyce


    joyce doesnt use the mojo in her head arrangement , its more bossa almost but they are anticipating pretty much , the head asks for it so even if you play the mojo as a head arrangement, you are going samba in the solo, moacir did, chico did...

    and there is a differance in solo aproach in moacyr and chico...and joyce hitting more anticipation rio style. im not sure if tuty moreno is from rio but it sounds in that vein in the bossa style

    this isnt directed at you at all, ive had this discusion about how to do april child , (gees lots of people love this song hahaha) , with rio guys i know and agree that the line is very implying a thing that gets that feeling. but if one wants to play the head technicaly as moacyr wrote it , with the mojo, he is from pernambuco , and they have incredable rhythms up there , for sure the line implies anticipation and the solos go into samba.

    i love this tune so i have strong ideas how i would play it

    take my word for it, there is a rio style im talking about that is differant than sao paulo , that evoloved as i said, after the main bossa masters, by the local rio elite players...broach the subject with your teacher...in 86 when i arrived ,it was noticable in the escola de sambas, sao paulo was way behind. they have closed the gap.

    sao paulo has incredable technicians. chico pineiro can demonstrate some incredable intricate harmonies and melodic directions well worth admiring and checking out, but he isnt showing the rio aproach...can he do it? no doubt he has the chops , but, rpjazz, its not chops , first and formost its choice, i know people and i personaly would die to make the solo deep rio groove of luizao style, and , he , with edu, are playing an older , actualy rio style ( dont you see , it comes from rio, but , edu, celso almeida , other sao paulo drummers have chosen to specialise in the edson machado 16 note broken ride hi hat on two and four and dado dado dado in the bass drum. and they kill it , do it really well.)

    ..kiko freitas lives in rio , is from rio grande de sul, but he also specialises in that aproach, they are the best at that sound, but, that isnt the rio groove, its not just partido alto , its the whole samba lays the bass on the 2 with some variations of surdos, and the anticipation is always the pivot point unless its directly pushed on the one and then you lay on that throughout...

    there is nothing wrong with chosing not to aproach samba like luizao innovated , but , it really was before and after in rio with the surdos making big changes in the escolas and rhythms section cats were going after that...

    the history of samba is enormous, chorinho has 42 strums , or so some guys book sais (hahaha,) bahia has many secrets and origins and beleive me, rio players start acting like they invented samba but bahia is the origins , those samba da rodas have everything to learn about the swing in tact and the dance.

    when i say rio sound , i mean luizao and after ...but just a minute, lots of younger players are forgetting or never got hipped...which is a pity because it is a reality . and the sao paulo players are chosing to perfect and open new directions on an older style that was also invented in rio....nothing wrong with that hahahaha

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    Dorival, as you say, was brilliant. I didn't mean to diminish that in the slightest. I should probably listen to more of his work. I'm a big fan of Dori. I'm less familiar with his siblings' work.
    Yeah Dorival Caymmi wrote a lot of great songs that translated seamlessly into the bossa era and beyond-- I'm thinking of Doralice on the Getz/Gilberto record, and then the next track on that same record is Ary Barroso. I don't see a sharp divide between the Carmen Miranda era and the 50s-60s, or today for that matter. The style of presentation changes, the songs remain the songs.

    Lumiar did a "Songbook" series around '80s-'90s, featuring a single composer with each track by a different performer-- the Dorival Caymmi set is four CDs (just looked on Amazon, they're still around but pricey) -- anyway if you can find those it's a real eye-opener about the enduring quality and adaptability of these tunes.

    And there's Rosa Passos Canta Caymmi (oh crap, I just looked that up -- what's the deal with these vultures, does anybody really pay $71.80 plus shipping for a CD? well if you're that guy, it's a great record)