The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    I have heard some differences in the way Sambistas from different cities and of different ages handle the groove.

    One Elder Statesman, Hamilton Godoy, from Sao Paulo, has as deep a groove as I've heard, but he doesn't have that "sounds like rushing" thing -- and he probably goes with slightly slower tempi on the standards.

    But, some younger Sao Paulo players seem to have a way of driving the groove that I haven't heard quite the same way from Rio based players. This could be my imagination, since Rio players also drive hard. I heard Andre Mehmari do it with Yotam Silberstein at Dizzy's a few weeks ago and it reminded me of Chico Pinheiro's comping. They're both from Sao Paulo, but younger than Mr. Godoy. It's based on playing every upbeat, but saying that doesn't do justice to the feel. It's heavily propulsive in a way that straight upbeats are not.

    Another point: I hear the "feels like rushing" thing more in the comping instruments and the melody instruments than in the drums. It's subtle and I could be wrong, but I know what it feels like in a group that's doing that - and I usually feel the pressure in the melody and comping. Perhaps the tension is created by the push there while the bass and drums are on, but not ahead, of the beat.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I have heard some differences in the way Sambistas from different cities and of different ages handle the groove.

    One Elder Statesman, Hamilton Godoy, from Sao Paulo, has as deep a groove as I've heard, but he doesn't have that "sounds like rushing" thing -- and he probably goes with slightly slower tempi on the standards.

    But, some younger Sao Paulo players seem to have a way of driving the groove that I haven't heard quite the same way from Rio based players. This could be my imagination, since Rio players also drive hard. I heard Andre Mehmari do it with Yotam Silberstein at Dizzy's a few weeks ago and it reminded me of Chico Pinheiro's comping. They're both from Sao Paulo, but younger than Mr. Godoy. It's based on playing every upbeat, but saying that doesn't do justice to the feel. It's heavily propulsive in a way that straight upbeats are not.
    It's probably closer to a swung eighth upbeat, apparently...

    Another point: I hear the "feels like rushing" thing more in the comping instruments and the melody instruments than in the drums. It's subtle and I could be wrong, but I know what it feels like in a group that's doing that - and I usually feel the pressure in the melody and comping. Perhaps the tension is created by the push there while the bass and drums are on, but not ahead, of the beat.
    Well we were just playing percussion at the time.

    I don't really know about how kit works in that set up, as I have no experience playing kit.

    But - and I'm WAAAAY above my pay grade here, probably talking shit.... it feels like the samba swing fundamentally belongs to the tamborims etc.... as the guitar plays tamborim patterns in brazilian comping styles maybe it's up to us to give that push?

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    sidewinder
    ha , yeah, that is the opisite hand of the pi le two hand ilu beat , slowed way way down.

    you got it

    the heavy thing about ilu is, especily if you hear it as its normal fast tempo, it also is the grandfather of the coco, forro , baio etc in brazil, it has that constant quarter note triplit feel ( i think that is right , its almost like the first half of a cascara 3/2 clave )implied in the groove ( the two stick handed " pi and le "opens up these other vistas by looking at the opisite hand which is doing a kind of "ruf" ,a drummer rudimental term ,alternating hands . that is where the bossa sidewinder olodum ray charles etc beat gets implied, in this opisite underhand side of looking at the beat ,and in these cases , slowing it down ,way down)

    you can hear this quarter note triplit ( first part of the 3/2 cascara clave , more or less) in sections of ragtime, louis armtstrong , the charlston etc
    so ilu has these various properties that you see in a lot of differant idioms , and that makes it a very powerful groove

    when people talk about the habanera and tresilio, in truth , that is ilu , meaning it is all up in igbo ogeno beats . its like the first part of a cascara of a three two clave over and . the composer and country of origin was under spanish rule but the concept is from west africa, and they are ancient concepts

    of course im sure cuban drumming has something related, but, ilu is a yoroba word , isnt it better to perceive those kind of grooves with that word? haha

    the bell pattern you can hear in nigeria etc but the effect of the ruff alternating hands so the opisite hand has this cross rhythm for a couple of beats , is for sure in brazilian ketu....just to clarify, i dont want to give too much generalised information so people might think im saying something else . i think these beats would get played so much that ideas started to emerge about the implication of the opisite hand , and how it could create new directions . in america, my gosh that is a mystery but i can only guess it was like a kirilian photograff where you tear up a leaf but you can still see the lost part in the kirilian photo. these concepts were in the people , they came out in differant ways depending where the people were taken. ultimitly leading to artists letting this culture pour out in rag , jazz, blues, rock, funk, hip hop , disco edm etc
    Man you are dropping some serious knowledge here, really appreciate, some of the best stuff I've read here. Just takes me a little while to get through it... I'm gonna spend some time learning those drum patterns (albeit basically) on the video you posted, seems a great primer, I can see the sticking etc.

    One thing I would say is that while the bell pattern on both Jinka and Bravum looks like the spang-a-lang ride pattern, I would think of it as being reversed - the skip note generally comes after beats 2 and 4. But it does synch well with the horns to my ears.

  5. #79

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    The best São Paulo players I've seen, Celso Almeida, Edu Ribeiro , Kiko Freitas, and other great men and women, especially, São Paulo, are doing " samba na prate" maybe wrong words, but , it's an older style invented in rio , by guys like Edson Machado. Dom um Romão , Milton banana ...etc. timbó trio was going after the rio sound.

    so these great drummers are throwing fast notes on the cymbal , and filling around the kit. Bass drum dadodadodao.

    if you want to see that style perfected, those are great guys to check out.

    i hit rio in 86 , I thank above for that, hit Salvador that year too but lived in rio. It's where you find out about samba. I came down to rio with a dadodado, but changed really fast.

    rio has so much history and movements in the music.what I learned from luizao and Paulo, I won't go back on. Especially the samba of luizao , he innovated the sound everyone copied and it throws the foot off the older style into a wonderful new world....those guys are experts at these other styles well worth checking out.

    im bringing that sound into the guitar samba thread

  6. #80

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    Christian , exactly correct about the bell in bravum jinka, it sounds like backwards swing...

    but is a monster front line phrase..it is gold, grab its bouncy anchor and you have solo improv power , phrasing power, but also writing power. Emote on that phrase , dig on it , blues it to death, its paydirt.

    nows the time, satin doll, its lots of compositions. Shuffle with it and use it to pivot off of and back on to.

    this is what makes this Ketu interesting, it addresses profound swing principles.that can be used right away with what you know.

    also. If you hear a pop cut like " heat wave" , boom/dada.dada/ boom/dada.dada, that is ilu from the front hand, not the opisite, so, its code is in some of those type of hits. It's a slice of the bell pattern , and the implication of the groove, but less notes, with a little swing shuffle

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    The best São Paulo players I've seen, Celso Almeida, Edu Ribeiro , Kiko Freitas, and other great men and women, especially, São Paulo, are doing " samba na prate" maybe wrong words, but , it's an older style invented in rio , by guys like Edson Machado. Dom um Romão , Milton banana ...etc. timbó trio was going after the rio sound.
    I have played with both Kiko and Edu; I was a student, but we played for several hours, total. Also, Marcio Bahia, Mauricio Zottarelli and Rafael Barata. Each one was an incredible experience. In each case (and with other masters playing on comping instruments), I felt the push in the comping more than in the drums. I don't have words to describe what the drumming felt like -- and each one does it differently. Kiko has an app that works on Apple phones. They all have instructional videos and they're all fine teachers.

    With regard to the upbeats, the sonic image that comes to mind is "jackhammer". I have sat close and watched/listened to the point where I can see what they're doing, but I have not been able to get to that feel.

    I've also had the opportunity to sit beside Kleber George (Sergio Mendez) playing Chega De Saudade at a brisk tempo, for that tune. His groove is incredible, but I didn't hear the jackhammer. What I did hear was Ginga -- the Brazilian swing -- really deep.

  8. #82

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    Rpjazzguitar

    fantastic you played with those great drummers.

    i know Rafael , he is from rio

    are you brazilian? Or , do you live in Brazil?

    i think samba drumming allows for a lot of personal interpretation. It's really supposed to be imitating percusion.

    im glad I went to rio first. At that time, the luizao bass concept was huge . I came down to rio already playing the dadodado on the bass drum, so, to experiabce that new way to play samba with the bass drum implying the rio surdo bass drums, was a dramatic change for me, and I've never looked back, even though the trend now in São Paulo, is to go back and relook at the Edson Machado innovations.some guys and women can maintain 16 note ride at really fast tempos.

  9. #83

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    I've never been to Brazil.

    But, there is a community of musicians, some Brazilian, playing Brazilian music in the Bay Area.

    This community includes some great players and great teachers.

    In addition, a group of us ask some of the visiting players from other areas to do a class if they have the time. There are some other groups around who do the same thing. Fortunately, quite a few of the Brazilian Masters have been willing to do so. We set it up as a combo class -- meaning we put a band together and have the Master coach us. Sometimes, we just want a chance to jam with them, just to see how it feels to play with them. This has been incredibly valuable, but it is still a gradual process of listening, playing and studying.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ......

    However, I haven’t found many commercial learning resources focussed on helping students find these rhythms; certainly not compared to pitch-based resources. Obviously, one should always give the simple and vital advice to listen to lots and lots jazz (immersion), but I feel other resources would be helpful, and possibly enjoyable for the student. One way to avoid the ‘blank page problem’ would be to provide the student with rhythmic phrases to base their lines on.

    Most commercial materials that contain rhythmic material focus on reading, whereas I feel I require something more specific and applicable to improvisation, perhaps allowing the student some creative input....
    How convenient it would be, if I could learn Golf by reading a book or watching a video "How to break 90 in 30 days". Lol. The market for this kind of educational media is huge, but the wannabe golfer just get confused. There is no other way to learn, but to play, and play a lot. Together with people that know the game. Music is no different.

    For whatever it's worth:
    When I was five, I attended Rhythmic classes once a week over a year. A lot of kids circling around the gym, with the teacher in the centre clapping the beat. I still remember it. We had claves, maracas and tambourines and written scores (!). We moved, danced, jumped and sang to different rhythms. I have often thought about what this early training did to my perception of music.

    I was born in cold place, far from Brazil, but I have this tendency to resort to latin grooves whether appropriate or not. Maybe it's a guitaristic thing, right hand fingers just want to do the bossa-nova...
    Same thing with the Shuffle beat, seems to come natural to guitar players, something about picks, up- and down-strokes perhaps....

    If you want to teach someone to swing - have them play triplets and do the Shuffle. Punctured eights are closely related, just that there are different degrees of swing.

    Rythm is also very much about dynamic articulation, vital in be-bop like you mentioned, but never expressed in the scores.