The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobalou
    @christianm77 What "new information" are you talking about? Modern music theory has been around for a looong time. There isn't any "new information" there it's the same stuff that's been used since long before you were a twinkle in your mama's eye or even your grandmama's eye. It's really just a matter of how creative you are and then what you can creatively do with it.
    So there have been a few scientific papers talking about the objective nature of swing as recorded that I find quite interesting. The most recent one (2017) talks about synchronisation with the up beat which is a thing that all jazz musicians do, but few are aware of. I’ve found this is something that both you can absolutely hear and quite useful for working out what exactly I am trying to teach.

    I’ll find a citation but it’s a little dense, but lasted on gets a bit more readable.

    So the question is whether players need to know that - I would say not, but I do think it’s a useful thing to know in light of pedagogy because it ties up a lot of the threads that get very confused in the types of discussions here.

    (I am aware of possible critiques from the cultural side also)

    People have lots of great advice but it’s not always clear to someone who wants a deeper understanding (again not necessarily the player, more the teacher who wants to help students consistently) and kind of work out where mutually contradictory advice has commonality. There’s a lot of the latter in jazz edu. (And not much academic literature which may not be a bad thing, but is certainly in contrast to classical)

    On the other hand sometimes I think guitarists think they have to have every lick spoon fed to them by someone else so they're always looking to someone else to show them some specific way to play everything. However if someone else shows a lick to you then, in a sense, it isn't really new. Rather you're regurgitating what's actually been done before and calling it "new". So in that sense it's actually a deception because it isn't really new or original.

    The concept I mentioned of "variable licks" is exactly a method for creating something new. Because if you're creative enough what you'll find is by using that method you'll eventually come up with brand new licks that are totally you're own that don't even resemble the original lick you started with anymore, even though they started out being based on the same idea.

    Having a solid foundation in the music theory, learning how to play with the different subdivisions during the measure, Playing some of what's already been done as a learning tool to see what's going on musically, then learning methods for creating your own original lines/musical ideas with it all, then playing what YOU hear and feel, that's how you create something new and original. That's how it becomes YOU and not just a clone of someone else.
    Absolutely

  4. #53

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    This is a really interesting discussion.

    To me "sounding like jazz" is 90% about how you play notes or rhythms and only 10% about the actual note choice and rhythms.

    You can play any rhythm so it does not sound like jazz and you can also play most rhythms so do sound like jazz.

    The easiest way to learn (in my experience as a student and as a teacher) is imitation, so really playing along with solos you have learned, and preferably you learned them by ear otherwise you won't be able to nail the phrasing. This again just comes down to listening a lot.

    It is also important to keep in mind that swing feel is not something with a right or a wrong solution. Pat Martino and Grant Green are both right, but are at both ends of the spectrum with how even they play 8th notes. Benson emphasizes the down beat very often so does Wes, but not all the time, so there are no strict rules for that.

    This makes it hard to teach with analysis and explanations (otherwise I would have made a lot more videos on it.... ) and easier to learn and internalize by ear. This is also a good reason why you should transcribe stuff even if you get a lot of the notes wrong, in a way that is not really that important for learning phrasing and you will still learn tons!

    Jens

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by JensL
    This is a really interesting discussion.

    To me "sounding like jazz" is 90% about how you play notes or rhythms and only 10% about the actual note choice and rhythms.

    You can play any rhythm so it does not sound like jazz and you can also play most rhythms so do sound like jazz.

    The easiest way to learn (in my experience as a student and as a teacher) is imitation, so really playing along with solos you have learned, and preferably you learned them by ear otherwise you won't be able to nail the phrasing. This again just comes down to listening a lot.
    I think this is 100% true... I would posit that it is the teacher's job in part to help the student learn what to listen out FOR - to acquaint them with the level of detail they need to be listening with in order to be actually (to paraphrase Bill Evans)able to imitate what they are hearing not just do a version of it.

    I find things like just learning some basic rhythms on percussion (claves, bembe, that sort of stuff) and getting students to sing or play these patterns along with 4/4 swing does a lot to open up the phrasing beyond the usual 8th notes to death thing. Opens up an extra layer of nuance...

    It is also important to keep in mind that swing feel is not something with a right or a wrong solution. Pat Martino and Grant Green are both right, but are at both ends of the spectrum with how even they play 8th notes. Benson emphasizes the down beat very often so does Wes, but not all the time, so there are no strict rules for that.

    This makes it hard to teach with analysis and explanations (otherwise I would have made a lot more videos on it.... ) and easier to learn and internalize by ear. This is also a good reason why you should transcribe stuff even if you get a lot of the notes wrong, in a way that is not really that important for learning phrasing and you will still learn tons!

    Jens
    This is perhaps where we disagree a little, if only because I've been able to get students to swing more by asking them to do specific exercises, most of which are coming from.

    It's to me no different from any type of music theory really, just naming specific entities and training one's ear to hear them. Even if it's as simple as knowing what a Bembe bell pattern is, or how it relates to the ride pattern, or 6/8 clave, or the 1/4 triplet - that all strikes me as the sort of thing drummers are very aware of. Drummers are often historians of rhythm with a much deeper understanding of the connections between musical forms.

    Also rhythm relates to maths on the most basic level, it's can be as theoretical, or as natural, as any other aspect of music, even if it's as simple as knowing when something should synchronise and when it shouldn't, developing rhythmic independence and so on.

    For instance, how do you teach someone to play a Bembe pattern with one hand and tap their foot or other hand in 6/8, 3/4 and 2/4 (Peter Bernstein teaches this for phrasing on a fast jazz waltz for instance.)?

    I think most people would have to break it down step by step as with any polyrhythm stuff. There's probably other ways to do it, but that's the most common way I've seen.

    Good for the brain, I think. Although drummers are mental.

    I sometimes feel people want rhythm to be completely intuitive, different from other aspects of music which sometimes need to be broken down in a step by step way. I'm not sure why this is.

  6. #55

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    Why does someone need to figure out the solo by ear to nail the phrasing?

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This is perhaps where we disagree a little, if only because I've been able to get students to swing more by asking them to do specific exercises, most of which are coming from.

    It's to me no different from any type of music theory really, just naming specific entities and training one's ear to hear them. Even if it's as simple as knowing what a Bembe bell pattern is, or how it relates to the ride pattern, or 6/8 clave, or the 1/4 triplet - that all strikes me as the sort of thing drummers are very aware of. Drummers are often historians of rhythm with a much deeper understanding of the connections between musical forms.

    Also rhythm relates to maths on the most basic level, it's can be as theoretical, or as natural, as any other aspect of music, even if it's as simple as knowing when something should synchronise and when it shouldn't, developing rhythmic independence and so on.

    For instance, how do you teach someone to play a Bembe pattern with one hand and tap their foot or other hand in 6/8, 3/4 and 2/4 (Peter Bernstein teaches this for phrasing on a fast jazz waltz for instance.)?

    I think most people would have to break it down step by step as with any polyrhythm stuff. There's probably other ways to do it, but that's the most common way I've seen.

    Good for the brain, I think. Although drummers are mental.

    I sometimes feel people want rhythm to be completely intuitive, different from other aspects of music which sometimes need to be broken down in a step by step way. I'm not sure why this is.
    To me all the things you are talking about above are not on the topic of swing and phrasing, they are things to study and will help in all sorts of ways but they will not help you hear a certain swing feel, at most they help you develop the technique to execute it if you can hear it.

    When you teach them to swing, is it then with a Grant Green feel or a Pat Martino feel?

    Jens

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Why does someone need to figure out the solo by ear to nail the phrasing?
    They don't need to, but from my experience most people don't really get it right if they are reading the solo. Half the time they are more obsessed with remembering what was on the page, and if you are reading then you are not spending as much energy on getting the phrasing right.

    If you learn it by ear you usually have it internalized in a much stronger way.

    Jens

  9. #58

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    Speaking of jazz phrasing generally - one thing that has helped me a lot is learning the difference between an accented, structural note and 'filler' (it's analagous to ghost notes on a hand drumming), and the placement of those particular notes is important, while the other ones can be a bit less definite.

    Some players are more consistent with their beat placement, evenness etc than others, but they all seem to nail the timing of these accented notes very specifically.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by JensL
    To me all the things you are talking about above are not on the topic of swing and phrasing, they are things to study and will help in all sorts of ways but they will not help you hear a certain swing feel, at most they help you develop the technique to execute it if you can hear it.

    Jens
    Well.... there's more to jazz than 8th notes.... Oh I seem to find you did a video on it.

    Bembe is a massive influence on good medium tempo swing feel. Triple time in general, obviously, but the Bembe just has that slinky push and pull thing. Take Wes on Willow Weep and sing the 6/8 clave with him. Billie Holiday too. Hearing Peter singing that rhythm switched on a light in my head, too.

    What this type of polyrhythm gives you is the right way to play behind the beat. As Wynton puts it:

    Wynton Marsalis:
    Mm-hmm. Well, it’s all of the musics that have a rhythm that’s a combination of 4 and 3. They are related technically. It all comes from that kind of African mother clave, then our shuffle is added in.

    The 3 rhythm is small and the 4 rhythm is big rhythm in the jazz language. Whereas in the African music, the 3 rhythm is the big rhythm that you hear. The 4 rhythm is the background rhythm. (Well, it’s a 6 but you know what I mean.) When they are playing they are hearing both of the times, and they are playing both of the times. But they swing in the lower time.
    EI: Barry Harris told me once that he thought Charlie Parker constantly played in 4 and 6 at the same time. That it was in there somewhere…
    WM: It’s in everybody’s music. Billie Holiday is the most pronounced one…
    EI: Oh, you think so?
    WM: Well, that I’ve heard of the jazz musicians. If we put on a Billie Holiday record and we tap quarter note triplets, a lot of her phrasing will line exactly up with those triplets. Put her music on and tap out a quarter note triplet. She’s always in that quarter note time. “Sailboat in the moonlight with you…”
    As Wynton says, you can boil it down to quarter triplets synchronising with 1/3 and this synching with 1 and 4 (as Kreisberg and Larry Koonse teach) but I like the Bembe because it's a bit more musical, obviously connected to the history and encapsulates both the 1/4 triplets in one rhythm.

    That said, most of my students struggle at first hearing 6/8 on 4/4 and accurately playing it, let alone the more complex Bembe rhythm, so learning 1/4 triplets is usually a necessary first step.

    I've learned a lot by reading interviews on Do the Math with Billy Hart, Charlie McPherson etc.. Those interviews are fantastic.

    When you teach them to swing, is it then with a Grant Green feel or a Pat Martino feel?
    Yeah - well here's the thing. The rhythmic language and phrasing of those two players is obviously very different; differences in rhythmic vocabulary, accentuation, articulation, not necessarily fundamental issues of beat placement, except in that Green has more of propensity to play other rhythms than swung eights. For instance, straight or double time over a swing rhythm section. I don't think I've yet heard Pat do that particular one.

    But you are going to find that they synchronise the upbeat with the rest of the band and don't overdot their 1/8s, anywhere up to playing them pretty much straight and fractionally behind the beat. That's non negotiable. Everyone does that. And that upbeat placement is agreed with the drummer and everyone else in the band.

    Anyway, I often find myself fixing players who do the overdotting, jerky thing. I'm sure you know it well.

    Can be for a number of reasons... number one reason, I reckon, too much practice trying to synch exactly with the metronome while swinging (which will never work), not enough experience playing straight ahead with drummers, not enough playing with records, whatever.

    So, step one, practice singing or tapping consistently the swing upbeat (which can take a while.) Go between 3rd triplet and straight and, just to get the basic reference points. Actually, a lot of overdotters are already able to do this.. (I had a teacher that suggested I practice with the metronome on '1 and' and '2 and', another good idea.)

    Then switch on the recorder, get them to start off playing their usual way, so probably quite triplety at this point - and then straighten their playing they ALWAYS sound good - they still swing because they are catching the swung upbeat.

    (That's the important part of it that sometimes gets missed. If you don't nail accurately the upbeats in any type of African diaspora music, you don't groove...)

    They usual feel a bit weird about it, you play them the recording and they go 'Oh' - do it a few times and they start to learn that feeling. It's not everything - you don't want to play accented downbeats late, for instance, but it works really well. Of course it does, it's the same advice given by many greats.

    So I think it doesn't have to be a big deal. If you know what you are doing, you can fix basic problems with swing feel. The other distinctions are more to do with rhythmic vocab, articulation etc

  11. #60

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    I am not saying that people shouldn't learn polyrhythms and I learned Bembe quite early on back in Denemark.

    But I still find that if you want a novice jazz player to learn to sound more like jazz when they improvise then having them do a few solos by ear is not to be ignored. And that was what you started the thread with right?

    We can drown in exercises but checking out real music is pretty useful

    Jens

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by JensL
    I am not saying that people shouldn't learn polyrhythms and I learned Bembe quite early on back in Denemark.
    It seemed a little bit like you couldn't relate what I'd said to jazz phrasing, so hence the long ass Wynton quote.

    Polyrhythms are essential to jazz phrasing. A sense of swing builds on all of these elements.

    But I still find that if you want a novice jazz player to learn to sound more like jazz when they improvise then having them do a few solos by ear is not to be ignored. And that was what you started the thread with right?
    I'm not really talking about ignoring anything? I'm confused now.

    Re the OP I say : 'Obviously, one should always give the simple and vital advice to listen to lots and lots jazz (immersion), but I feel other resources would be helpful, and possibly enjoyable for the student.' Anyway, this was for an assignment. Feel free to check out the fairly lightweight but (I think) quite fun resource I posted on the thread linked above.

    In general, you could exactly the same value (probably quite a bit more) by transcribing the rhythms of solos (I think Galper has a exercise like this), but the cards thing is quite fun and also helps with reading skills. I do like having exercises where we can forget about pitch choices for 5 minutes. It's so easy to drown in questions about this or that scale.

    Personally, I feel the more resources we have that deal with jazz rhythm the better. And there's not that much out there, for the number of players who struggle with it. I know I did, and the advice I got was very general, and not that much help. You may have been luckier... My aim is always to give students a series of clear and finite things to work on rather than just saying 'work on your time.'

    I still am working on my time all the .... er... time, but the difference is now I know what I am working towards and I can measure my gains, both by listening critically to myself, because I know what I am listening out for and in other ways. As my understanding improves, so does my ear, so I never really catch up with it...

    Re: learning solos by ear. One thing I do is get students to transcribe in the lesson with my help. It can be really intimidating to do this for a beginner. Some students are 100% comfortable with it, even surprised that this is an advised activity.

    What's your approach?

    We can drown in exercises but checking out real music is pretty useful

    Jens
    I think we should play only exercises..

    (not really)
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-29-2019 at 05:26 PM.

  13. #62

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    i have to double check , but, i think "bembe " bell is called "vassi " in ketu . ketu has various vassi tempos for differant dieties, same bell and pi and le but differant tempos, the solo sometimes just hands on the drum, or ,hand and stick.

    what i have discovered in ketu is , if you stick to the basic laws or parameters , there is an incredable cross thing happening.

    for instance , jinka has a "pi" and "le" , the two sticks playing the same thing as the other drum , a really bounce pattern almost elvinish , but is in ellington accents on heads like satin doll . the jinka bell is the same as the bravum , where the "pi" and "le" are actualy an art blakey and philly jo jones splang a lang with a triplit cross stick in the jazz drum version. but the jinka / bravum bell is a figure in nows the time and jingle bell rock , so you all can get a very good idea of the feel, its really bouncy and if you just played that rhythm on a solo with a blues , any note you wanted , it would be swinging like crazy .

    so , in ketu, sato is a 3/4 beat , and, they just add a beat to the jinka/ bravum bell ( think jingle bell rock) and its totaly 3/4, but they keep the "pi" and "le" the same as in jinka , but , with the new bell, its dramaticly 3/4, yet there is a tug of the duple also

    the phrasing of the rums really start going back and forth with the 3 against 4 feeling ,like lets say billie holliday mentioned, but , it seems all these great jazz singers got it from louis armstrong, and , i skated on listening to the hot fives a long time, but , now , getting to it , im blown away. so much is there. his scatting is off the wall even doing a heavy cross 3 worthy of hancock and tony on 4 and more , and serious opanije phrasing on lots of stuff, he keeps coming back to opanije singing and playing the trumpet , even with some bars other cadence. but after hot fives , he doesnt do that as much , all swing went "bravum" for a minute .

    but, the actual parameters of these concepts let the phrasing of the solo play to that , or , on top of the beat , that is part of the range of expresion each player brings . in ketu , the solo "rum" has each player doing these similar licks for the dancers , but there are these differances in aproach, some slippery , some sharp , some behind , some on, some ahead, not unlike sax solos, or, the exact differance of a methany , who is more slippery and informed by coltrane and ornette and grant green more rooted in tradition.

    so its this incredable two against three , syncopated call responce , simple repeated micro cadences that lead to large beautiful ever changing like life because of improvisation , that you add a beat to a duple concept and the whole structure although playing the same thing , goes into a new feeling , in 3. this goes over and over, the tribe over the hill has a variation and a new dance , its so flexable it always evolves. look how it came to the americas , dominated all the places these concepts were brought to , the grooves , ginga, swing, dances that kept changing every decade ...and jazz is all that...

    for example, christian, one video you have i asume the drummer is playing a second line beat in the A . well, if you take a monster ketu beat , "ilu ", on the "pi" and "le" , its really fast, and isolate the opisite hand , still playing the pattern, start slowing it down and first you hit "frevo" then that second line beat ,some louis armstrong unison horn line cadences , some ray charles stuff has it also as a cadence, then you hit "olodum" the brazilian bloco afro who made that beat famous, then , really slow with a high hat and cross stick , you hit bossa...the opisite hand of "ilu", all slowed down, still playing the whole pi and le, starts covering cadences in various world recognised cultural musical patrimonies.

    this speaks to the crux of what is going on , the vitality and the importance to plugging into the big picture. which also includes powerful tickits to intuition and sub concious expresion , and the cultural genius of where this comes from

  14. #63

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    hot five didnt have drums,it had banjo

    neither jelly roll nor joplin

    this isnt drummer talk at all

  15. #64

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    I thought about a new thread for this,in On The Bandstand, but maybe it will make sense here.

    Some time back I heard a Brazilian master drummer play a simple egg shaker. None of the non-Brazilians could get the same groove.

    In the course of a lesson from another Brazilian master, the shaker reminded me of the Little Train That Could, meaning "I think I can" repeated. Some readers will know what that sounds like. The Little Train speeds up and the rhythm of the words changes with the speed, but somehow, it stays in a kind of pocket.

    So, I started bringing a shaker to jams. On the Brazilian tunes, if the guitar comp wasn't needed, I'd play shaker instead, chanting silently, "I think I can". The drummers looked happy, which is a good sign.

    Then, something interesting in another way happened. When I was playing guitar in one of the sessions, I kept feeling like I was getting off the time. I wasn't sure why. I couldn't hear where the problem was in the band, or in me. But, when I was playing shaker, keeping time with my arm and wrist, I felt pretty confident that I was on the beat. I could feel it clearly. Suddenly, I could hear when the drums, bass, or both faltered. At another session, with a different bassist and drummer, I did it again, finding that it was all fine.

    So, as a small, but possibly helpful, idea to improve time feel, I'd suggest putting the guitar down and playing shaker. Other hand percussion is possible, but most other percussion instruments are more complicated than a straightforward shaker part.

    Another thing I'd suggest is not playing too loud. I find it easier than it should be to get off the time if I inadvertently drown out the rhythm section. It's better if I put the amp further away, so I hear the guitar more in the group context.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    hot five didnt have drums,it had banjo

    neither jelly roll nor joplin

    this isnt drummer talk at all
    Which is why *we* should be talking about it of course.

    Also - guitar is a type of drum - but we forgot in jazz. Other forms of music haven’t, funk, rock, reggae and so on. In bossa the guitar is a whole percussion ensemble.

    I’ve played my fair share of early jazz rhythm guitar, even a little banjo. The guitar used to be the drums in the piano trio before Ahmad and Bill changes it up - just listen to Tal Farlow play rhythm.

    Jim Hall redefined the role of the guitar just as Charlie Christian had done (now it could play the part of piano as well as horn) but both were masters of the instrument in its original role.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I thought about a new thread for this,in On The Bandstand, but maybe it will make sense here.

    Some time back I heard a Brazilian master drummer play a simple egg shaker. None of the non-Brazilians could get the same groove.

    In the course of a lesson from another Brazilian master, the shaker reminded me of the Little Train That Could, meaning "I think I can" repeated. Some readers will know what that sounds like. The Little Train speeds up and the rhythm of the words changes with the speed, but somehow, it stays in a kind of pocket.

    So, I started bringing a shaker to jams. On the Brazilian tunes, if the guitar comp wasn't needed, I'd play shaker instead, chanting silently, "I think I can". The drummers looked happy, which is a good sign.

    Then, something interesting in another way happened. When I was playing guitar in one of the sessions, I kept feeling like I was getting off the time. I wasn't sure why. I couldn't hear where the problem was in the band, or in me. But, when I was playing shaker, keeping time with my arm and wrist, I felt pretty confident that I was on the beat. I could feel it clearly. Suddenly, I could hear when the drums, bass, or both faltered. At another session, with a different bassist and drummer, I did it again, finding that it was all fine.

    So, as a small, but possibly helpful, idea to improve time feel, I'd suggest putting the guitar down and playing shaker. Other hand percussion is possible, but most other percussion instruments are more complicated than a straightforward shaker part.

    Another thing I'd suggest is not playing too loud. I find it easier than it should be to get off the time if I inadvertently drown out the rhythm section. It's better if I put the amp further away, so I hear the guitar more in the group context.
    The frustrating thing is Brazilian music has so much more of a language for talking and teaching the stuff. From what little i know of Cuban music, seems the same.

    Anyway, here, most jazz musicians are taught Brazilian music and other African and African Diaspora rhythms by a guy called Barak Schmool, including (AFAIK) Jacob Collier who I think has a pretty good samba feel to these gringo ears (Jacob's first instrument was drums.) I've also had some contact with Barak learning Samba and his approach is pretty technical.

    Many sambistas prefer a more immersive approach - they say 'you can learn the patterns but you need to immerse yourself in the culture.' Of course flying to Rio every year is a big commitment for someone who's main focus is jazz, so Barak's approach might be appropriate for jazzers, who might want to save the money for a trip to NYC lol.

    Anyway, similar debate to what comes up when we talk about jazz feel.

    Barak's project (what used to be the F-IRE collective) is really to equip jazz musicians with better groove skills, more of a connection to dance and so on. The fact that he does this using Brazilian music, not Jazz is striking.

    (Problem is of course, while rhythmic vocabulary is from the same roots, feel is obviously completely different. I wonder if yes, Ketu Candomble drumming might be more appropriate. That said the 'can' if 'I think I can' does align with the 3rd triplet upbeat, so there is still a 6/8 lilt in Samba.)

    (One thing I did learn from him is that in AD music the downbeat is relaxed while it is the upbeats that are energised. This is true on any level of subdivision - be it 1/2 notes, 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes or 16th notes. This is most obvious perhaps in the way we click our fingers to jazz on 2 and 4, or play 1st Surdo in the bateria on beat 2; and so therefore the scientific finding that jazzers hear the 1/8th upbeat in the same way as the beat in Western music, as a moment of synchronisation, makes perfect sense. It shouldn't have been a surprise lol.)

    American Jazz on the other hand, while using many of the same rhythms is a different thing. And there seems to be few reference points. It’s interesting what doesn’t seem to get taught... basic vocabulary such as Charleston....

    I’ve met plenty of jazz graduates who don’t know what a Charleston, or a second line is. Might be less so in the states, but here in London it feels there’s a disconnect with the basic rhythmic language of the music. The swinging players know all of this stuff intuitively, of course. Doesn’t mean they can teach it.

    The shaker thing - do you do the thing where you bring it further back on the 4th 16th (the 'can' if I think I can, or Ta of Karakata as it's been taught to me)? Just interested.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-30-2019 at 05:01 AM.

  18. #67

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    Another thought re: the importance of having a language to talk about rhythm... Here's a story told by Barak's teacher Joao Bosco De Oliveira.

    So, an inexperienced player is practicing with the bateria. He's playing tamborim (I think) and keeps dragging. Now Bosco teaches, 'if the samba dosen't feel like it's speeding up, it's dragging' - so this fella doesn't know this, and the tempo is coming down and coming down. The leader points at him and makes it VERY clear he is fucking up. He then attempts to demonstrate how the part should feel. In process of demonstrating the part the leader does what everyone tends to do when demonstrating - he plays it louder.

    (It's a bit like an English tourist repeating the same phrase in English louder to someone who doesn't speak English lol)

    Needless to say the guy plays it louder and keeps on dragging. It's later made clear to him not to return.

    So - I'm not saying that leaders of Rio baterias should be expected to be teachers (lol) but it does illustrate a point.

    • First of all the teacher doesn't necessarily even know the student is dragging per se - it may just be that to him as a person having learned the music as a mother tongue that it's just *wrong*.
    • Secondly the student doesn't know what to listen for, so it's not clear what he needs to do to get it sounding *right* (or at least, less wrong) - the leader just picks up the instrument and sounds amazing.
    • Thirdly the mode of communication used actually made it worse, because nobody wants the guy playing out of time to play louder lol.


    Bosco is one of the best teachers I have had (and everyone who has studied with him agrees), not because he is the best percussionist or anything (although he is great), but because he knows how to break it down and communicate the building blocks of the music, as well as illustrate the culture of the music through anecdotes and history. Of course a student passionate about the music of Brazil should spend as much time in Brazil as possible, but that's a big commitment. He is a master at teaching the basics of the music correctly.

  19. #68

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    First off, I wouldn't swear that the Little Train rhythm is exactly what the sambistas play. I just think it's closer than what I was doing before. That said, I played it this morning with an American drummer who gigs regularly with Brazilians and he was smiling, fwiw.

    One of the drummers who taught it recommended playing the shaker with a physical pattern.

    I'll do my best to describe it. Hold the shaker in front of you and shake it.

    Now imagine that someone off the side is looking at you do it. The shaker's trajectory is a basically a slight arc back and forth.

    Now imagine that you play the forward motion with a bigger arc. Imagine that's the top 30% or so of a circle -- still as seen from the side.

    Then, a short backward motion (this would be about 10 o'clock or so on the circle). Then a corresponding forward motion.

    And, then the bottom arc coming back to the starting point.

    The teacher's point, I think was that if you trace the circle like that, you're more likely to get the rhythm right. It is, in fact, they way he played it -- and not just for demonstration. But, another Brazilian drummer didn't do it, at least not as obviously, but still sounded great.

    Another Brazilian said they have something called Trenzhino (I'm guessing at the spelling). The Little Train. It refers to a certain chugging quality to the rhythm. I don't know if it refers to the same Little Train in the fairy tale.

    I have also heard the idea that it should feel like it's rushing. I have had the opportunity to play with some Brazilian masters. My impression is that many of them play that way, it's a style. But not all.

  20. #69

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    " I think I can " ha ha , I have a phrase I go to in up modal bop when a soloist goes linear with no time. I start hearing in my head " these and those and these and those " ha ha , to help me lock into a groove

    good point ,Christian , older jazz guitar played more rhythm.

    this opanije is funny, it's all in early jazz , when swing went more bravum , it still stuck around in band kicks in arrangements. And as swing got faster , it turned into bop , and the opanije feeling got stripped down, and the last referance I can see is the A head of " milestones " . That kick would be a super fast striped down opanije cadence. So , see how that works? An evolution from the original cadence?

    the tuba hits that oom pa oom pa in early jazz , piano picks it up in stride piano , when tempos get faster like with teddy Wilson, he starts laying the chords on the one , like the "oom" from " oom pa " , hit bop with bud Powell style, then McCoy takes it to another leval , then herbie starts getting wispy , but would bring it in occasionaly...but , you have to know the history to get why there is this comp on the one in swing bop and it is crucial in the swing dialogue as a pivot point.

    There is this evolution, the tempos get faster , the cadences get striped down , but there still is a thread to the older concept. If young players only copy the new generation of guitar players, they might miss where the kicks their idols play came from.

  21. #70

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    Yes yes yes, there should be lift in samba and jazz and gua gua co..

    i call it the tautness ness of the bow when you shoot a bow and arrow. The spring action affect.

    pollyrhythms encourage lift, not drag, it's on top

    yes, you can be in a taut rhythm and solo behind the beat in that affect that was talked about relating to the " triplet" feel, but , the rhythm section can't drag. You can't let a behind the beat solo pull the rhythm section down.

    i don't know what it is about samba, but , once you really get it , you can swing it on a match box , I can do it, I just can't explain it. It's all in the cadence I think.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    First off, I wouldn't swear that the Little Train rhythm is exactly what the sambistas play. I just think it's closer than what I was doing before. That said, I played it this morning with an American drummer who gigs regularly with Brazilians and he was smiling, fwiw.

    One of the drummers who taught it recommended playing the shaker with a physical pattern.

    I'll do my best to describe it. Hold the shaker in front of you and shake it.

    Now imagine that someone off the side is looking at you do it. The shaker's trajectory is a basically a slight arc back and forth.

    Now imagine that you play the forward motion with a bigger arc. Imagine that's the top 30% or so of a circle -- still as seen from the side.

    Then, a short backward motion (this would be about 10 o'clock or so on the circle). Then a corresponding forward motion.

    And, then the bottom arc coming back to the starting point.

    The teacher's point, I think was that if you trace the circle like that, you're more likely to get the rhythm right. It is, in fact, they way he played it -- and not just for demonstration. But, another Brazilian drummer didn't do it, at least not as obviously, but still sounded great.
    Yep that sounds like how I was taught. Obviously you exaggerate to start off with, and when it's internalise, that exaggerated movement is no longer required. I doubt even if you were fighting fit you could do that big movement with a Chocalho for hours on end. It's bad enough with an egg.

    Another Brazilian said they have something called Trenzhino (I'm guessing at the spelling). The Little Train. It refers to a certain chugging quality to the rhythm. I don't know if it refers to the same Little Train in the fairy tale.

    I have also heard the idea that it should feel like it's rushing. I have had the opportunity to play with some Brazilian masters. My impression is that many of them play that way, it's a style. But not all.
    Bosco was teaching specifically Rio Samba. I doubt this holds true for say, Samba reggae, and obviously Bossa doesn't feel like it's rushing. Carnival Samba is pretty fast and physically demanding to play for a long time (which they do obviously.) Good exercise!

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos
    Yes yes yes, there should be lift in samba and jazz and gua gua co..

    i call it the tautness ness of the bow when you shoot a bow and arrow. The spring action affect.

    pollyrhythms encourage lift, not drag, it's on top

    yes, you can be in a taut rhythm and solo behind the beat in that affect that was talked about relating to the " triplet" feel, but , the rhythm section can't drag. You can't let a behind the beat solo pull the rhythm section down.
    This is so true. That's why I think to preceive those points of synchronicity with what you are doing is important? ( I don't know if it's important to African and AD drumming tradiitons, TBH, but I find it helps me)

    For instance, the way the Bembe/Vassi bell pattern intersects with the 4/4 means if you are perceiving the polyrhythm on top of, say, playing a straight 4/4 ride or rhythm guitar part, you can hear what the soloist is doing and lock in to it.

    OTOH the Bembe can exist in a good rhythm sections groove anyway, so the soloist might be more likely to lock in.

    In the same way, if you are nailing the upbeat consistently in a swung 1/8th line, the section will feel it. If you aren't... Well you're back to triplets and overdotting (mea culpa.) Obviously if you have a great drummer, they are already giving you the upbeat and all you have to do is lock in...

    Jonathon Kreisberg puts it well - 'people think this music floats, but actually it's locked in.'

    The polyrhythms are to me akin to upper structures on chords. When I first heard Kind of Blue I thought it was out of tune. Later I learned to hear 9ths and 13th and realised what Miles was doing, and heard the relationship to the chord.

    The same with polyrhythmic phrasing; the unsophisticated ear may hear Billie as simply out of time and not hear the 6/8 lilt perceived by Wynton above. Furthermore, 'phrase that melody behind the beat' may become the bandstand shorthand for 'lock into this polyrhythm' which is fine if you know how to feel it.

    i don't know what it is about samba, but , once you really get it , you can swing it on a match box , I can do it, I just can't explain it. It's all in the cadence I think.
    Yeah defo.

  24. #73

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    christian, yes bossa implies laid back, the original writers were writing about the unbeleivable lifestyle of ipanema copacabana on the beach

    i think the whole bossa thing is the same as the billy holiday phrasing, its behind but it super aware of the real groove underneath..

    remember i hooked one of the standard bossa cadences of cross sticking , to the extremly slowed down opisite hand of the powerful ilu beat, that has two beats that float a 3 against 2 affect, cutting the 3 off at the end of the bar starting the cycle over again.

    there is that 3 against 2 phrasing you talk about catching a beat of the 3 making it sound laid back but its not. the trick is always being strong how it comes back in . you can float out a phrase but it has to finish strong to line up with the rhythms section

    the whole rhythm thing radicly changed in bossa / samba after the era of jobim /gilberto , when the players who were younger came in who could really really play , and started innovating , like the incredable bass player luizao maia who changed how everyone plays samba bass . the cutting edge got real differant , and it never quite made it to the west...esperanza spaulding is an example of someone who got it...her version of "coisa feita" is something to envy hahahaha

  25. #74

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    When I hear Ilu I think of this:



    Oh hai Barry.

  26. #75

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    sidewinder
    ha , yeah, that is the opisite hand of the pi le two hand ilu beat , slowed way way down.

    you got it

    the heavy thing about ilu is, especily if you hear it as its normal fast tempo, it also is the grandfather of the coco, forro , baio etc in brazil, it has that constant quarter note triplit feel ( i think that is right , its almost like the first half of a cascara 3/2 clave )implied in the groove ( the two stick handed " pi and le "opens up these other vistas by looking at the opisite hand which is doing a kind of "ruf" ,a drummer rudimental term ,alternating hands . that is where the bossa sidewinder olodum ray charles etc beat gets implied, in this opisite underhand side of looking at the beat ,and in these cases , slowing it down ,way down)

    you can hear this quarter note triplit ( first part of the 3/2 cascara clave , more or less) in sections of ragtime, louis armtstrong , the charlston etc
    so ilu has these various properties that you see in a lot of differant idioms , and that makes it a very powerful groove

    when people talk about the habanera and tresilio, in truth , that is ilu , meaning it is all up in igbo ogeno beats . its like the first part of a cascara of a three two clave over and . the composer and country of origin was under spanish rule but the concept is from west africa, and they are ancient concepts

    of course im sure cuban drumming has something related, but, ilu is a yoroba word , isnt it better to perceive those kind of grooves with that word? haha

    the bell pattern you can hear in nigeria etc but the effect of the ruff alternating hands so the opisite hand has this cross rhythm for a couple of beats , is for sure in brazilian ketu....just to clarify, i dont want to give too much generalised information so people might think im saying something else . i think these beats would get played so much that ideas started to emerge about the implication of the opisite hand , and how it could create new directions . in america, my gosh that is a mystery but i can only guess it was like a kirilian photograff where you tear up a leaf but you can still see the lost part in the kirilian photo. these concepts were in the people , they came out in differant ways depending where the people were taken. ultimitly leading to artists letting this culture pour out in rag , jazz, blues, rock, funk, hip hop , disco edm etc