Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Posts 101 to 126 of 126
  1. #101

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I thought about a new thread for this,in On The Bandstand, but maybe it will make sense here.

    Some time back I heard a Brazilian master drummer play a simple egg shaker. None of the non-Brazilians could get the same groove.

    In the course of a lesson from another Brazilian master, the shaker reminded me of the Little Train That Could, meaning "I think I can" repeated. Some readers will know what that sounds like. The Little Train speeds up and the rhythm of the words changes with the speed, but somehow, it stays in a kind of pocket.

    So, I started bringing a shaker to jams. On the Brazilian tunes, if the guitar comp wasn't needed, I'd play shaker instead, chanting silently, "I think I can". The drummers looked happy, which is a good sign.

    Then, something interesting in another way happened. When I was playing guitar in one of the sessions, I kept feeling like I was getting off the time. I wasn't sure why. I couldn't hear where the problem was in the band, or in me. But, when I was playing shaker, keeping time with my arm and wrist, I felt pretty confident that I was on the beat. I could feel it clearly. Suddenly, I could hear when the drums, bass, or both faltered. At another session, with a different bassist and drummer, I did it again, finding that it was all fine.

    So, as a small, but possibly helpful, idea to improve time feel, I'd suggest putting the guitar down and playing shaker. Other hand percussion is possible, but most other percussion instruments are more complicated than a straightforward shaker part.

    Another thing I'd suggest is not playing too loud. I find it easier than it should be to get off the time if I inadvertently drown out the rhythm section. It's better if I put the amp further away, so I hear the guitar more in the group context.
    The frustrating thing is Brazilian music has so much more of a language for talking and teaching the stuff. From what little i know of Cuban music, seems the same.

    Anyway, here, most jazz musicians are taught Brazilian music and other African and African Diaspora rhythms by a guy called Barak Schmool, including (AFAIK) Jacob Collier who I think has a pretty good samba feel to these gringo ears (Jacob's first instrument was drums.) I've also had some contact with Barak learning Samba and his approach is pretty technical.

    Many sambistas prefer a more immersive approach - they say 'you can learn the patterns but you need to immerse yourself in the culture.' Of course flying to Rio every year is a big commitment for someone who's main focus is jazz, so Barak's approach might be appropriate for jazzers, who might want to save the money for a trip to NYC lol.

    Anyway, similar debate to what comes up when we talk about jazz feel.

    Barak's project (what used to be the F-IRE collective) is really to equip jazz musicians with better groove skills, more of a connection to dance and so on. The fact that he does this using Brazilian music, not Jazz is striking.

    (Problem is of course, while rhythmic vocabulary is from the same roots, feel is obviously completely different. I wonder if yes, Ketu Candomble drumming might be more appropriate. That said the 'can' if 'I think I can' does align with the 3rd triplet upbeat, so there is still a 6/8 lilt in Samba.)

    (One thing I did learn from him is that in AD music the downbeat is relaxed while it is the upbeats that are energised. This is true on any level of subdivision - be it 1/2 notes, 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes or 16th notes. This is most obvious perhaps in the way we click our fingers to jazz on 2 and 4, or play 1st Surdo in the bateria on beat 2; and so therefore the scientific finding that jazzers hear the 1/8th upbeat in the same way as the beat in Western music, as a moment of synchronisation, makes perfect sense. It shouldn't have been a surprise lol.)

    American Jazz on the other hand, while using many of the same rhythms is a different thing. And there seems to be few reference points. It’s interesting what doesn’t seem to get taught... basic vocabulary such as Charleston....

    I’ve met plenty of jazz graduates who don’t know what a Charleston, or a second line is. Might be less so in the states, but here in London it feels there’s a disconnect with the basic rhythmic language of the music. The swinging players know all of this stuff intuitively, of course. Doesn’t mean they can teach it.

    The shaker thing - do you do the thing where you bring it further back on the 4th 16th (the 'can' if I think I can, or Ta of Karakata as it's been taught to me)? Just interested.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-30-2019 at 05:01 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

    User Info Menu

    Another thought re: the importance of having a language to talk about rhythm... Here's a story told by Barak's teacher Joao Bosco De Oliveira.

    So, an inexperienced player is practicing with the bateria. He's playing tamborim (I think) and keeps dragging. Now Bosco teaches, 'if the samba dosen't feel like it's speeding up, it's dragging' - so this fella doesn't know this, and the tempo is coming down and coming down. The leader points at him and makes it VERY clear he is fucking up. He then attempts to demonstrate how the part should feel. In process of demonstrating the part the leader does what everyone tends to do when demonstrating - he plays it louder.

    (It's a bit like an English tourist repeating the same phrase in English louder to someone who doesn't speak English lol)

    Needless to say the guy plays it louder and keeps on dragging. It's later made clear to him not to return.

    So - I'm not saying that leaders of Rio baterias should be expected to be teachers (lol) but it does illustrate a point.

    • First of all the teacher doesn't necessarily even know the student is dragging per se - it may just be that to him as a person having learned the music as a mother tongue that it's just *wrong*.
    • Secondly the student doesn't know what to listen for, so it's not clear what he needs to do to get it sounding *right* (or at least, less wrong) - the leader just picks up the instrument and sounds amazing.
    • Thirdly the mode of communication used actually made it worse, because nobody wants the guy playing out of time to play louder lol.


    Bosco is one of the best teachers I have had (and everyone who has studied with him agrees), not because he is the best percussionist or anything (although he is great), but because he knows how to break it down and communicate the building blocks of the music, as well as illustrate the culture of the music through anecdotes and history. Of course a student passionate about the music of Brazil should spend as much time in Brazil as possible, but that's a big commitment. He is a master at teaching the basics of the music correctly.

  4. #103

    User Info Menu

    First off, I wouldn't swear that the Little Train rhythm is exactly what the sambistas play. I just think it's closer than what I was doing before. That said, I played it this morning with an American drummer who gigs regularly with Brazilians and he was smiling, fwiw.

    One of the drummers who taught it recommended playing the shaker with a physical pattern.

    I'll do my best to describe it. Hold the shaker in front of you and shake it.

    Now imagine that someone off the side is looking at you do it. The shaker's trajectory is a basically a slight arc back and forth.

    Now imagine that you play the forward motion with a bigger arc. Imagine that's the top 30% or so of a circle -- still as seen from the side.

    Then, a short backward motion (this would be about 10 o'clock or so on the circle). Then a corresponding forward motion.

    And, then the bottom arc coming back to the starting point.

    The teacher's point, I think was that if you trace the circle like that, you're more likely to get the rhythm right. It is, in fact, they way he played it -- and not just for demonstration. But, another Brazilian drummer didn't do it, at least not as obviously, but still sounded great.

    Another Brazilian said they have something called Trenzhino (I'm guessing at the spelling). The Little Train. It refers to a certain chugging quality to the rhythm. I don't know if it refers to the same Little Train in the fairy tale.

    I have also heard the idea that it should feel like it's rushing. I have had the opportunity to play with some Brazilian masters. My impression is that many of them play that way, it's a style. But not all.

  5. #104

    User Info Menu

    " I think I can " ha ha , I have a phrase I go to in up modal bop when a soloist goes linear with no time. I start hearing in my head " these and those and these and those " ha ha , to help me lock into a groove

    good point ,Christian , older jazz guitar played more rhythm.

    this opanije is funny, it's all in early jazz , when swing went more bravum , it still stuck around in band kicks in arrangements. And as swing got faster , it turned into bop , and the opanije feeling got stripped down, and the last referance I can see is the A head of " milestones " . That kick would be a super fast striped down opanije cadence. So , see how that works? An evolution from the original cadence?

    the tuba hits that oom pa oom pa in early jazz , piano picks it up in stride piano , when tempos get faster like with teddy Wilson, he starts laying the chords on the one , like the "oom" from " oom pa " , hit bop with bud Powell style, then McCoy takes it to another leval , then herbie starts getting wispy , but would bring it in occasionaly...but , you have to know the history to get why there is this comp on the one in swing bop and it is crucial in the swing dialogue as a pivot point.

    There is this evolution, the tempos get faster , the cadences get striped down , but there still is a thread to the older concept. If young players only copy the new generation of guitar players, they might miss where the kicks their idols play came from.

  6. #105

    User Info Menu

    Yes yes yes, there should be lift in samba and jazz and gua gua co..

    i call it the tautness ness of the bow when you shoot a bow and arrow. The spring action affect.

    pollyrhythms encourage lift, not drag, it's on top

    yes, you can be in a taut rhythm and solo behind the beat in that affect that was talked about relating to the " triplet" feel, but , the rhythm section can't drag. You can't let a behind the beat solo pull the rhythm section down.

    i don't know what it is about samba, but , once you really get it , you can swing it on a match box , I can do it, I just can't explain it. It's all in the cadence I think.

  7. #106

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    First off, I wouldn't swear that the Little Train rhythm is exactly what the sambistas play. I just think it's closer than what I was doing before. That said, I played it this morning with an American drummer who gigs regularly with Brazilians and he was smiling, fwiw.

    One of the drummers who taught it recommended playing the shaker with a physical pattern.

    I'll do my best to describe it. Hold the shaker in front of you and shake it.

    Now imagine that someone off the side is looking at you do it. The shaker's trajectory is a basically a slight arc back and forth.

    Now imagine that you play the forward motion with a bigger arc. Imagine that's the top 30% or so of a circle -- still as seen from the side.

    Then, a short backward motion (this would be about 10 o'clock or so on the circle). Then a corresponding forward motion.

    And, then the bottom arc coming back to the starting point.

    The teacher's point, I think was that if you trace the circle like that, you're more likely to get the rhythm right. It is, in fact, they way he played it -- and not just for demonstration. But, another Brazilian drummer didn't do it, at least not as obviously, but still sounded great.
    Yep that sounds like how I was taught. Obviously you exaggerate to start off with, and when it's internalise, that exaggerated movement is no longer required. I doubt even if you were fighting fit you could do that big movement with a Chocalho for hours on end. It's bad enough with an egg.

    Another Brazilian said they have something called Trenzhino (I'm guessing at the spelling). The Little Train. It refers to a certain chugging quality to the rhythm. I don't know if it refers to the same Little Train in the fairy tale.

    I have also heard the idea that it should feel like it's rushing. I have had the opportunity to play with some Brazilian masters. My impression is that many of them play that way, it's a style. But not all.
    Bosco was teaching specifically Rio Samba. I doubt this holds true for say, Samba reggae, and obviously Bossa doesn't feel like it's rushing. Carnival Samba is pretty fast and physically demanding to play for a long time (which they do obviously.) Good exercise!

  8. #107

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    Yes yes yes, there should be lift in samba and jazz and gua gua co..

    i call it the tautness ness of the bow when you shoot a bow and arrow. The spring action affect.

    pollyrhythms encourage lift, not drag, it's on top

    yes, you can be in a taut rhythm and solo behind the beat in that affect that was talked about relating to the " triplet" feel, but , the rhythm section can't drag. You can't let a behind the beat solo pull the rhythm section down.
    This is so true. That's why I think to preceive those points of synchronicity with what you are doing is important? ( I don't know if it's important to African and AD drumming tradiitons, TBH, but I find it helps me)

    For instance, the way the Bembe/Vassi bell pattern intersects with the 4/4 means if you are perceiving the polyrhythm on top of, say, playing a straight 4/4 ride or rhythm guitar part, you can hear what the soloist is doing and lock in to it.

    OTOH the Bembe can exist in a good rhythm sections groove anyway, so the soloist might be more likely to lock in.

    In the same way, if you are nailing the upbeat consistently in a swung 1/8th line, the section will feel it. If you aren't... Well you're back to triplets and overdotting (mea culpa.) Obviously if you have a great drummer, they are already giving you the upbeat and all you have to do is lock in...

    Jonathon Kreisberg puts it well - 'people think this music floats, but actually it's locked in.'

    The polyrhythms are to me akin to upper structures on chords. When I first heard Kind of Blue I thought it was out of tune. Later I learned to hear 9ths and 13th and realised what Miles was doing, and heard the relationship to the chord.

    The same with polyrhythmic phrasing; the unsophisticated ear may hear Billie as simply out of time and not hear the 6/8 lilt perceived by Wynton above. Furthermore, 'phrase that melody behind the beat' may become the bandstand shorthand for 'lock into this polyrhythm' which is fine if you know how to feel it.

    i don't know what it is about samba, but , once you really get it , you can swing it on a match box , I can do it, I just can't explain it. It's all in the cadence I think.
    Yeah defo.

  9. #108

    User Info Menu

    christian, yes bossa implies laid back, the original writers were writing about the unbeleivable lifestyle of ipanema copacabana on the beach

    i think the whole bossa thing is the same as the billy holiday phrasing, its behind but it super aware of the real groove underneath..

    remember i hooked one of the standard bossa cadences of cross sticking , to the extremly slowed down opisite hand of the powerful ilu beat, that has two beats that float a 3 against 2 affect, cutting the 3 off at the end of the bar starting the cycle over again.

    there is that 3 against 2 phrasing you talk about catching a beat of the 3 making it sound laid back but its not. the trick is always being strong how it comes back in . you can float out a phrase but it has to finish strong to line up with the rhythms section

    the whole rhythm thing radicly changed in bossa / samba after the era of jobim /gilberto , when the players who were younger came in who could really really play , and started innovating , like the incredable bass player luizao maia who changed how everyone plays samba bass . the cutting edge got real differant , and it never quite made it to the west...esperanza spaulding is an example of someone who got it...her version of "coisa feita" is something to envy hahahaha

  10. #109

    User Info Menu

    When I hear Ilu I think of this:



    Oh hai Barry.

  11. #110

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    When I hear Ilu I think of this:



    Oh hai Barry.
    That's a cool tune! What is this groove? I call anything R&B with Latinish flavor Bugaloo, but I'm probably wrong...

  12. #111

    User Info Menu

    sidewinder
    ha , yeah, that is the opisite hand of the pi le two hand ilu beat , slowed way way down.

    you got it

    the heavy thing about ilu is, especily if you hear it as its normal fast tempo, it also is the grandfather of the coco, forro , baio etc in brazil, it has that constant quarter note triplit feel ( i think that is right , its almost like the first half of a cascara 3/2 clave )implied in the groove ( the two stick handed " pi and le "opens up these other vistas by looking at the opisite hand which is doing a kind of "ruf" ,a drummer rudimental term ,alternating hands . that is where the bossa sidewinder olodum ray charles etc beat gets implied, in this opisite underhand side of looking at the beat ,and in these cases , slowing it down ,way down)

    you can hear this quarter note triplit ( first part of the 3/2 cascara clave , more or less) in sections of ragtime, louis armtstrong , the charlston etc
    so ilu has these various properties that you see in a lot of differant idioms , and that makes it a very powerful groove

    when people talk about the habanera and tresilio, in truth , that is ilu , meaning it is all up in igbo ogeno beats . its like the first part of a cascara of a three two clave over and . the composer and country of origin was under spanish rule but the concept is from west africa, and they are ancient concepts

    of course im sure cuban drumming has something related, but, ilu is a yoroba word , isnt it better to perceive those kind of grooves with that word? haha

    the bell pattern you can hear in nigeria etc but the effect of the ruff alternating hands so the opisite hand has this cross rhythm for a couple of beats , is for sure in brazilian ketu....just to clarify, i dont want to give too much generalised information so people might think im saying something else . i think these beats would get played so much that ideas started to emerge about the implication of the opisite hand , and how it could create new directions . in america, my gosh that is a mystery but i can only guess it was like a kirilian photograff where you tear up a leaf but you can still see the lost part in the kirilian photo. these concepts were in the people , they came out in differant ways depending where the people were taken. ultimitly leading to artists letting this culture pour out in rag , jazz, blues, rock, funk, hip hop , disco edm etc

  13. #112

    User Info Menu

    I have heard some differences in the way Sambistas from different cities and of different ages handle the groove.

    One Elder Statesman, Hamilton Godoy, from Sao Paulo, has as deep a groove as I've heard, but he doesn't have that "sounds like rushing" thing -- and he probably goes with slightly slower tempi on the standards.

    But, some younger Sao Paulo players seem to have a way of driving the groove that I haven't heard quite the same way from Rio based players. This could be my imagination, since Rio players also drive hard. I heard Andre Mehmari do it with Yotam Silberstein at Dizzy's a few weeks ago and it reminded me of Chico Pinheiro's comping. They're both from Sao Paulo, but younger than Mr. Godoy. It's based on playing every upbeat, but saying that doesn't do justice to the feel. It's heavily propulsive in a way that straight upbeats are not.

    Another point: I hear the "feels like rushing" thing more in the comping instruments and the melody instruments than in the drums. It's subtle and I could be wrong, but I know what it feels like in a group that's doing that - and I usually feel the pressure in the melody and comping. Perhaps the tension is created by the push there while the bass and drums are on, but not ahead, of the beat.

  14. #113

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I have heard some differences in the way Sambistas from different cities and of different ages handle the groove.

    One Elder Statesman, Hamilton Godoy, from Sao Paulo, has as deep a groove as I've heard, but he doesn't have that "sounds like rushing" thing -- and he probably goes with slightly slower tempi on the standards.

    But, some younger Sao Paulo players seem to have a way of driving the groove that I haven't heard quite the same way from Rio based players. This could be my imagination, since Rio players also drive hard. I heard Andre Mehmari do it with Yotam Silberstein at Dizzy's a few weeks ago and it reminded me of Chico Pinheiro's comping. They're both from Sao Paulo, but younger than Mr. Godoy. It's based on playing every upbeat, but saying that doesn't do justice to the feel. It's heavily propulsive in a way that straight upbeats are not.
    It's probably closer to a swung eighth upbeat, apparently...

    Another point: I hear the "feels like rushing" thing more in the comping instruments and the melody instruments than in the drums. It's subtle and I could be wrong, but I know what it feels like in a group that's doing that - and I usually feel the pressure in the melody and comping. Perhaps the tension is created by the push there while the bass and drums are on, but not ahead, of the beat.
    Well we were just playing percussion at the time.

    I don't really know about how kit works in that set up, as I have no experience playing kit.

    But - and I'm WAAAAY above my pay grade here, probably talking shit.... it feels like the samba swing fundamentally belongs to the tamborims etc.... as the guitar plays tamborim patterns in brazilian comping styles maybe it's up to us to give that push?

  15. #114

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    sidewinder
    ha , yeah, that is the opisite hand of the pi le two hand ilu beat , slowed way way down.

    you got it

    the heavy thing about ilu is, especily if you hear it as its normal fast tempo, it also is the grandfather of the coco, forro , baio etc in brazil, it has that constant quarter note triplit feel ( i think that is right , its almost like the first half of a cascara 3/2 clave )implied in the groove ( the two stick handed " pi and le "opens up these other vistas by looking at the opisite hand which is doing a kind of "ruf" ,a drummer rudimental term ,alternating hands . that is where the bossa sidewinder olodum ray charles etc beat gets implied, in this opisite underhand side of looking at the beat ,and in these cases , slowing it down ,way down)

    you can hear this quarter note triplit ( first part of the 3/2 cascara clave , more or less) in sections of ragtime, louis armtstrong , the charlston etc
    so ilu has these various properties that you see in a lot of differant idioms , and that makes it a very powerful groove

    when people talk about the habanera and tresilio, in truth , that is ilu , meaning it is all up in igbo ogeno beats . its like the first part of a cascara of a three two clave over and . the composer and country of origin was under spanish rule but the concept is from west africa, and they are ancient concepts

    of course im sure cuban drumming has something related, but, ilu is a yoroba word , isnt it better to perceive those kind of grooves with that word? haha

    the bell pattern you can hear in nigeria etc but the effect of the ruff alternating hands so the opisite hand has this cross rhythm for a couple of beats , is for sure in brazilian ketu....just to clarify, i dont want to give too much generalised information so people might think im saying something else . i think these beats would get played so much that ideas started to emerge about the implication of the opisite hand , and how it could create new directions . in america, my gosh that is a mystery but i can only guess it was like a kirilian photograff where you tear up a leaf but you can still see the lost part in the kirilian photo. these concepts were in the people , they came out in differant ways depending where the people were taken. ultimitly leading to artists letting this culture pour out in rag , jazz, blues, rock, funk, hip hop , disco edm etc
    Man you are dropping some serious knowledge here, really appreciate, some of the best stuff I've read here. Just takes me a little while to get through it... I'm gonna spend some time learning those drum patterns (albeit basically) on the video you posted, seems a great primer, I can see the sticking etc.

    One thing I would say is that while the bell pattern on both Jinka and Bravum looks like the spang-a-lang ride pattern, I would think of it as being reversed - the skip note generally comes after beats 2 and 4. But it does synch well with the horns to my ears.

  16. #115

    User Info Menu

    The best São Paulo players I've seen, Celso Almeida, Edu Ribeiro , Kiko Freitas, and other great men and women, especially, São Paulo, are doing " samba na prate" maybe wrong words, but , it's an older style invented in rio , by guys like Edson Machado. Dom um Romão , Milton banana ...etc. timbó trio was going after the rio sound.

    so these great drummers are throwing fast notes on the cymbal , and filling around the kit. Bass drum dadodadodao.

    if you want to see that style perfected, those are great guys to check out.

    i hit rio in 86 , I thank above for that, hit Salvador that year too but lived in rio. It's where you find out about samba. I came down to rio with a dadodado, but changed really fast.

    rio has so much history and movements in the music.what I learned from luizao and Paulo, I won't go back on. Especially the samba of luizao , he innovated the sound everyone copied and it throws the foot off the older style into a wonderful new world....those guys are experts at these other styles well worth checking out.

    im bringing that sound into the guitar samba thread

  17. #116

    User Info Menu

    Christian , exactly correct about the bell in bravum jinka, it sounds like backwards swing...

    but is a monster front line phrase..it is gold, grab its bouncy anchor and you have solo improv power , phrasing power, but also writing power. Emote on that phrase , dig on it , blues it to death, its paydirt.

    nows the time, satin doll, its lots of compositions. Shuffle with it and use it to pivot off of and back on to.

    this is what makes this Ketu interesting, it addresses profound swing principles.that can be used right away with what you know.

    also. If you hear a pop cut like " heat wave" , boom/dada.dada/ boom/dada.dada, that is ilu from the front hand, not the opisite, so, its code is in some of those type of hits. It's a slice of the bell pattern , and the implication of the groove, but less notes, with a little swing shuffle

  18. #117

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    The best São Paulo players I've seen, Celso Almeida, Edu Ribeiro , Kiko Freitas, and other great men and women, especially, São Paulo, are doing " samba na prate" maybe wrong words, but , it's an older style invented in rio , by guys like Edson Machado. Dom um Romão , Milton banana ...etc. timbó trio was going after the rio sound.
    I have played with both Kiko and Edu; I was a student, but we played for several hours, total. Also, Marcio Bahia, Mauricio Zottarelli and Rafael Barata. Each one was an incredible experience. In each case (and with other masters playing on comping instruments), I felt the push in the comping more than in the drums. I don't have words to describe what the drumming felt like -- and each one does it differently. Kiko has an app that works on Apple phones. They all have instructional videos and they're all fine teachers.

    With regard to the upbeats, the sonic image that comes to mind is "jackhammer". I have sat close and watched/listened to the point where I can see what they're doing, but I have not been able to get to that feel.

    I've also had the opportunity to sit beside Kleber George (Sergio Mendez) playing Chega De Saudade at a brisk tempo, for that tune. His groove is incredible, but I didn't hear the jackhammer. What I did hear was Ginga -- the Brazilian swing -- really deep.

  19. #118

    User Info Menu

    Rpjazzguitar

    fantastic you played with those great drummers.

    i know Rafael , he is from rio

    are you brazilian? Or , do you live in Brazil?

    i think samba drumming allows for a lot of personal interpretation. It's really supposed to be imitating percusion.

    im glad I went to rio first. At that time, the luizao bass concept was huge . I came down to rio already playing the dadodado on the bass drum, so, to experiabce that new way to play samba with the bass drum implying the rio surdo bass drums, was a dramatic change for me, and I've never looked back, even though the trend now in São Paulo, is to go back and relook at the Edson Machado innovations.some guys and women can maintain 16 note ride at really fast tempos.

  20. #119

    User Info Menu

    I've never been to Brazil.

    But, there is a community of musicians, some Brazilian, playing Brazilian music in the Bay Area.

    This community includes some great players and great teachers.

    In addition, a group of us ask some of the visiting players from other areas to do a class if they have the time. There are some other groups around who do the same thing. Fortunately, quite a few of the Brazilian Masters have been willing to do so. We set it up as a combo class -- meaning we put a band together and have the Master coach us. Sometimes, we just want a chance to jam with them, just to see how it feels to play with them. This has been incredibly valuable, but it is still a gradual process of listening, playing and studying.

  21. #120

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    ......

    However, I haven’t found many commercial learning resources focussed on helping students find these rhythms; certainly not compared to pitch-based resources. Obviously, one should always give the simple and vital advice to listen to lots and lots jazz (immersion), but I feel other resources would be helpful, and possibly enjoyable for the student. One way to avoid the ‘blank page problem’ would be to provide the student with rhythmic phrases to base their lines on.

    Most commercial materials that contain rhythmic material focus on reading, whereas I feel I require something more specific and applicable to improvisation, perhaps allowing the student some creative input....
    How convenient it would be, if I could learn Golf by reading a book or watching a video "How to break 90 in 30 days". Lol. The market for this kind of educational media is huge, but the wannabe golfer just get confused. There is no other way to learn, but to play, and play a lot. Together with people that know the game. Music is no different.

    For whatever it's worth:
    When I was five, I attended Rhythmic classes once a week over a year. A lot of kids circling around the gym, with the teacher in the centre clapping the beat. I still remember it. We had claves, maracas and tambourines and written scores (!). We moved, danced, jumped and sang to different rhythms. I have often thought about what this early training did to my perception of music.

    I was born in cold place, far from Brazil, but I have this tendency to resort to latin grooves whether appropriate or not. Maybe it's a guitaristic thing, right hand fingers just want to do the bossa-nova...
    Same thing with the Shuffle beat, seems to come natural to guitar players, something about picks, up- and down-strokes perhaps....

    If you want to teach someone to swing - have them play triplets and do the Shuffle. Punctured eights are closely related, just that there are different degrees of swing.

    Rythm is also very much about dynamic articulation, vital in be-bop like you mentioned, but never expressed in the scores.

  22. #121

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    How convenient it would be, if I could learn Golf by reading a book or watching a video "How to break 90 in 30 days". Lol. The market for this kind of educational media is huge, but the wannabe golfer just get confused. There is no other way to learn, but to play, and play a lot. Together with people that know the game. Music is no different.

    For whatever it's worth:
    When I was five, I attended Rhythmic classes once a week over a year. A lot of kids circling around the gym, with the teacher in the centre clapping the beat. I still remember it. We had claves, maracas and tambourines and written scores (!). We moved, danced, jumped and sang to different rhythms. I have often thought about what this early training did to my perception of music.

    I was born in cold place, far from Brazil, but I have this tendency to resort to latin grooves whether appropriate or not. Maybe it's a guitaristic thing, right hand fingers just want to do the bossa-nova...
    Same thing with the Shuffle beat, seems to come natural to guitar players, something about picks, up- and down-strokes perhaps....

    If you want to teach someone to swing - have them play triplets and do the Shuffle. Punctured eights are closely related, just that there are different degrees of swing.

    Rythm is also very much about dynamic articulation, vital in be-bop like you mentioned, but never expressed in the scores.
    I just want to make clear I’m not selling anything nor aiming to replace anything. Anyway check out what I came up with on the other thread see if you like it.

  23. #122

    User Info Menu

    This thread expresses both the things that frustrate me most about this forum and the things that are most amazing about it.

    The frustrations are often people assuming everything is very binary. Apparently you can’t for instance, both think the records are the primary resource for learning, or that rhythm is primarily learned experiential and also come up with other resources for it or get interested in diving deep into the science and history of the rhythms that pervade our music.

    This seems like bollocks to me. I know of no good jazz drummers who think this way. Which is why it’s so good to have a drummer on the thread...

    And the weird thing is I find myself sometimes arguing this way over .... what? It seems like people are insinuating I seek some replacement for their approaches (which are all proven) while all I seek is a very modest augmentation at best... another way of teaching the same material. Maybe I’m reading in too much, but it’s hard for me not to get that vibe from jcats post... I feel I communicated it in the OP, but maybe not well enough.

    But - Guess I can’t leave while people like bons still pop up!
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-01-2019 at 08:30 AM.

  24. #123

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    This thread expresses both the things that frustrate me most about this forum and the things that are most amazing about it.

    The frustrations are often people assuming everything is very binary. Apparently you can’t for instance, both think the records are the primary resource for learning, or that rhythm is primarily learned experiential and also come up with other resources for it or get interested in diving deep into the science and history of the rhythms that pervade our music.

    This seems like bollocks to me. I know of no good jazz drummers who think this way. Which is why it’s so good to have a drummer on the thread...

    And the weird thing is I find myself sometimes arguing this way over .... what? It seems like people are insinuating I seek some replacement for their approaches (which are all proven) while all I seek is a very modest augmentation at best... another way of teaching the same material. Maybe I’m reading in too much, but it’s hard for me not to get that vibe from jcats post... I feel I communicated it in the OP, but maybe not well enough.

    But - Guess I can’t leave while people like bons still pop up!
    Sorry, I respect your work and your input on this forum. I'll check out what you came up with. The subjects you address are often interesting to me. My input is no more than that, just input for the discussion.

    I'm just saying that one can never learn to play golf by reading a book. But I concur the written rules are handy. And at some point music theory becomes valuable, for sure.

    I believe, without proof, that some skills are nurtured at a very early age and that we have to put in extra efforts to learn/reprogram our language base later in life.

    But I also believe that practice makes perfect and that there's more than just one method/ system/ approach that works. People are different and have different learning processes; by seeing, by hearing, by doing. Hearing and doing seem critical to me in the domain of music. Of course, various excercises could be included in the educational material.

  25. #124

    User Info Menu

    i respect where everyone is coming from on here...

    someone came on and said they get a lot out of playing shaker. it helps them align their time and see things from a differant perspective to realise that it was other players who were off

    i respect someone saying they dont want to mess with percusion and just get on the instrument and get it that way...

    thanks for your vote christian, i came on here and some other instrument forums for the purpose of putting these concepts ive discovered out there. im not trying to sell anything now about it, and all my records i put up on youtube for everyone to hear so im not selling them either. i really wanted to get this message out that i found out and its changed a lot in my head.

    the discusions got good over here and i came in more than i thought.i love you guys are talking about these groove and rhythm issues ,i consider it really important to play jazz well. im worried about talking to much, but, when people kick around interesting concepts and are talking about the things i brought in , its hard to post less

    you can play ketu and not know anything about jazz, or not get better at jazz, but i think it helps , and relates. i dont look at it as playing percusion as much as finding actual roots and origins of these musics i love so much. ive played lots of styles, odd times, written arrangents, but, after all these years i had to admit that the afro diasporic grooves is what i get off on most, and especialy brazilian , american, cuban and i have always listened to traditional african drumming. and there are things i need to check out more.

    and, more happened than i thought. ive listened to more joplin , armstrong and jelly roll ( these are all without drums , and the stuff is coming from the soloist on top , not a rhythms section ) than i have listened to my whole life , and, that is mind blowing.im not going to start an armstrong revival band and i dont think people have to form ketu ensembles, but, just learning about how this ketu hooks up with older jazz, is a massive teutonic shift in how im seeing the music now , i can never hear jazz the same again, ill always be recognising ketu codes and describing some jazz in those terms

    but, thanks to those in here who have received me well and not thought it funny a drummer is coming in . im really glad you all are having these type discussions.

    rpjazz, yeah, san francisco has a thriving brazilian cultural thing going on there. they have an anual disfile of drum schools, right? there is some guy in oakland , jorje alibi? something like that, and he used to work the foldloric shows in rio and he is really teaching good stuff up there. he went up to portland and they got a good bateria school going there. glad you are getting close to real brazilian musicians in the workshops....it helps

  26. #125

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    i n anual disfile of drum schools, right? there is some guy in oakland , jorje alibi? something like that, and he used to work the foldloric shows in rio and he is really teaching good stuff up there. he went up to portland and they got a good bateria school going there. glad you are getting close to real brazilian musicians in the workshops....it helps
    Jorge Alabe. Percussion master. I've taken some lessons from him. Probably ought to do more. There is a bateria in Oakland and there may be another one in SF. Some of the jazz guys go to his classes, mostly, I think, to try to get to feeling the groove the Brazilian way.

  27. #126

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Sorry, I respect your work and your input on this forum. I'll check out what you came up with. The subjects you address are often interesting to me. My input is no more than that, just input for the discussion.

    I'm just saying that one can never learn to play golf by reading a book. But I concur the written rules are handy. And at some point music theory becomes valuable, for sure.

    I believe, without proof, that some skills are nurtured at a very early age and that we have to put in extra efforts to learn/reprogram our language base later in life.

    But I also believe that practice makes perfect and that there's more than just one method/ system/ approach that works. People are different and have different learning processes; by seeing, by hearing, by doing. Hearing and doing seem critical to me in the domain of music. Of course, various excercises could be included in the educational material.
    Oh I shouldn’t be so grumpy, I invited comment on the OP.

    (I have cheered up a little bit since my little daughter danced around to my guitar playing this afternoon.)

    I think I was really looking to talk about something quite specific - vocabulary - the stuff that I’ve been chatting to bons about. No one could describe him (or myself I hope) as someone who simply theorises about music.

    Anyway I think you are absolutely right. Language is an excellent analogy. Some things we have as a mother tongue musically, just given to us in the cradle practically...

    (for me as an Englishman it’s bad rhythm and a tendency to accent the downbeat)

    But you can learn languages in adult... it’s just you need all the help you can get to try and get as good as a native speaker.