The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    How would you apply the pentatonic approach to, say,

    E7, A7, D7, G7?
    If you want to play with the minorization idea, minor pents all the way... mix and match:

    E7 - Eminpent, Bminpent, Dbminpent, Gbminpent
    A7 - Bminpent, Cminpent, Abminpent, Gbminpent
    D7 - Dbminpent, Gbminpent, Aminpent, Bminpent
    G7 - Dminpent, Gbminpent, Bminpent, Eminpent

    But it's not going to sound good until you begin to hear how the pents relate to the standard jazz sounds.

    Standard sound is more like:

    E7 - going up E G B D F->F# A
    A7 - going down F C# A# G
    D7 - going up D F# A C# D#->E
    G7 - going down E D C# B A F E D

    To get the pents to sound right you have to find the ones that resemble or approximate their more jazz sounding counterparts, then experiment with them to find which of the notes are contributing to that sound... there is an intuitive aspect to it, you have some room between inside and outside sounding lines, and fortunately most of us are well familiar with the sound and mechanics of pents, so some experimentation pays off right away.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Could you give Poehlert's definition of mediant? I'm having trouble parsing that term with any meaning I know for it in this context.
    You ask a lot of questions, all good, but this weekend is nuts for me and I do not have time to do them justice. But I don't want to seem to be ignoring you.

    The first meaning of 'mediant' is middle. So Em would be the mediant of C major. (C = C E G; Em = E G B). That would be the 'basic mediant' or 'mediantic.' There is also the 'blues mediantic". For G7 (G B D F) it is, as Poehlert puts it, "Fm7 in its pentatonic surround" (F Ab Bb C Eb, giving one the b7 b9 b3 11 and #5 of G7) I wish he had chosen another term but he did not.

    Two things that are a very big deal to him. One, he thinks the great blues and jazz musicians of the early 20th century figured out (on their instruments and in their playing) the solution to something that had bothered composers since Wagner, "The crisis of the late romantic harmony." (I have no idea what that means, but Poehlert's "Basic Harmony" is not just jazz harmony; he sees it as the tying together of the whole she-bang, from monophony to Charlie Parker.) Two, the use of minor 7 chords (in their pentatonic surrounding) as a framework for improvisation was something "players of the authentic Modern Jazz and Mainstream often used." That is, it was common practice among notable pros, not a simplistic work-around for novices.

    He thinks if a novice uses these shapes and diagonal connections that they can sound polised much more quickly than with a chord-scale approach. (He doesn't seem to care for that or think that most of the great jazz innovators went about it that way.) But his claim that great players were actually DOING this is someting else. (I don't know enough to say one way or the other.)

    He thinks working with one type or one structure (the minor 7 chord in its pentatonic surrounding) allows one to develop "one consistent Basic Technique." I think that could be esp useful on the guitar, where there are so many different ways to play things. Having a "default" (as Reg calls it) seems like a good idea to me.

    But I haven't been working with this long enough to make a serious judgment about it. I can say that I wish a new, more idiomatic English translation would be made.

    More soon. Crazy weekend here. (Not bad crazy, just relentless.)

  4. #28

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    [QUOTE=pauln;950334]If you want to play with the minorization idea, minor pents all the way... mix and match:

    E7 - Eminpent, Bminpent, Dbminpent, Gbminpent
    A7 - Bminpent, Cminpent, Abminpent, Gbminpent
    D7 - Dbminpent, Gbminpent, Aminpent, Bminpent
    G7 - Dminpent, Gbminpent, Bminpent, Eminpent

    The D7 and G7 take minor pentatonics built from 3 5 nat7 and 13.

    The E7 and A7 are each different.

    How do you arrive at these particular choices?

  5. #29

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    [QUOTE=rpjazzguitar;950355]
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    If you want to play with the minorization idea, minor pents all the way... mix and match:

    E7 - Eminpent, Bminpent, Dbminpent, Gbminpent
    A7 - Bminpent, Cminpent, Abminpent, Gbminpent
    D7 - Dbminpent, Gbminpent, Aminpent, Bminpent
    G7 - Dminpent, Gbminpent, Bminpent, Eminpent

    The D7 and G7 take minor pentatonics built from 3 5 nat7 and 13.

    The E7 and A7 are each different.

    How do you arrive at these particular choices?
    By ear, same as everything else I do in music, based on how it sounds. The four chords are playing different roles so they don't necessarily share the same relative pents, and I didn't try to exhaust all possibilities. Main point was if you want to use pents, there are lots of perspectives to explore.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    You ask a lot of questions, all good, but this weekend is nuts for me and I do not have time to do them justice. But I don't want to seem to be ignoring you.

    The first meaning of 'mediant' is middle. So Em would be the mediant of C major. (C = C E G; Em = E G B). That would be the 'basic mediant' or 'mediantic.' There is also the 'blues mediantic". For G7 (G B D F) it is, as Poehlert puts it, "Fm7 in its pentatonic surround" (F Ab Bb C Eb, giving one the b7 b9 b3 11 and #5 of G7) I wish he had chosen another term but he did not.

    Two things that are a very big deal to him. One, he thinks the great blues and jazz musicians of the early 20th century figured out (on their instruments and in their playing) the solution to something that had bothered composers since Wagner, "The crisis of the late romantic harmony." (I have no idea what that means, but Poehlert's "Basic Harmony" is not just jazz harmony; he sees it as the tying together of the whole she-bang, from monophony to Charlie Parker.) Two, the use of minor 7 chords (in their pentatonic surrounding) as a framework for improvisation was something "players of the authentic Modern Jazz and Mainstream often used." That is, it was common practice among notable pros, not a simplistic work-around for novices.

    He thinks if a novice uses these shapes and diagonal connections that they can sound polised much more quickly than with a chord-scale approach. (He doesn't seem to care for that or think that most of the great jazz innovators went about it that way.) But his claim that great players were actually DOING this is someting else. (I don't know enough to say one way or the other.)

    He thinks working with one type or one structure (the minor 7 chord in its pentatonic surrounding) allows one to develop "one consistent Basic Technique." I think that could be esp useful on the guitar, where there are so many different ways to play things. Having a "default" (as Reg calls it) seems like a good idea to me.

    But I haven't been working with this long enough to make a serious judgment about it. I can say that I wish a new, more idiomatic English translation would be made.

    More soon. Crazy weekend here. (Not bad crazy, just relentless.)


    No worries. I know you have your hands full. I was just hoping my post didn't get lost in the shuffle.

    .

  7. #31

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    rpjazzguitar -

    If you meant literally E7-A7-D7-G7 or E7/A7 - D7/G7 then it's almost certainly a run-down to C major. You could cover the whole lot with a nice end-lick ending up on the C.

    If you insist on playing a different pentatonic over each chord you're going to find it very difficult and it's almost certainly not worth the effort. It also tends to sound odd because you're drifting in and out of key just when the ear says 'I want to hear C'.

    Up to you though. Personally I like Em because Em is the pentatonic for CM7. Am works too, especially with blue notes.

  8. #32

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    I like the minor pentatonic with a major 6 for dominants

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i find poehlert's approach problematic for two reasons:

    -i don't think he ever studied jazz seriously. he was mainly a baroque/pre-classical player who got involved in some mjq type of music with w lauth in the 50s. in the 80s he claimed to be some sort of flagbearer for the "authentic jazz". which he wasn't.

    -there is a hidden political agenda, which is not helpful.
    I find it problematic because I'm not sure I understand it! I don't know about the hidden political agenda.

  10. #34

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    Not sure of the interest but this is how I use minors, pents, blues, etc. I worked up a Bossa progression based entirely on dom chords (any resemblance to Satin Doll is entirely fortuitous).

    D9 - % - E9 - %
    A13 - Ab13 - G6 - Eb9
    D9 - % - E9 - %
    A13 - Ab13 - G6 - %

    G13 - % - C69 - %
    A13 - % - D9 - Eb9
    D9 - % - E9 - %
    A13 - Ab13 - G6 - %

    I just played it how I would ordinarily and captioned in what I did (it's take one). The Gbm is an alt sub for Eb9.

    Had I done more choruses I'd have branched out a bit from this. You can always slide a ii sub up a tone, so F#m - Fm over A13/Ab13 would have sounded even better than Em - Ebm.



    PS. It's harder than it looks :-)

  11. #35

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    Here's one more using what I said, the ii sub moved up a tone. I think the F#m - Fm sounds better than the Em - Ebm - although those are the 'correct' ii of V subs.

    These videos are only demos. It's all very basic for demo purposes. These tricks can be used in any style - swing, funk, bebop, standards, etc, doesn't have to be Bossa.


  12. #36

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    Haven't followed the early posts.I have no idea WTF you guys are talking about, but my very simple approach to minor conversion stems from things I seen jazz players doing on records...

    So you have two types of minor chord, right - fake minor (m7) and real minor (m6)

    So m7 - that works great on lame-ass chords chords. Cos it's fake.

    Major - on C major, Em7 and Am7 - iii and vi subs. Major third up or minor third down.
    7Sus4 - on G7sus4 - Dm7 - ii-V relationship. Fifth up.

    General principle - Cmaj7, Em7, Am7 and Dsus4 are all the same thing.

    Real minor works just great on most of the cool chords

    Half diminished - On Bm7b5 use Dm6. m7b5 is an inversion of m6. Minor third up.
    Dominant - On G7 use Dm6. ii-V relationship. Fifth up.
    Altered Dominant - On G7alt use Abm6. Altered relationship. Half step up.

    General principle - Dm6, Bm7b5, G7 and Db7b9b13 are the same thing.

    Also dim7's are handled with dim7's but can be replaced with minor (fake or real) when soloing. There also diminished symmetry which is one for another day.

    There are obviously many other applications, but these basics are pretty robust and useful. Everyone uses at least some of this shit. Django, Charlie, Bird, and everyone after.

    In terms of scales... Well... Apart form the iii on major thing, but everything can be handled with dorian for fake minor and melodic minor - real minor, and you will sound like you know scales. I like using pentatonic on fake minor and minor pent 6 on real minor.

    At some point the distinction between fake and real minor got eroded. In practice you can do the same thing, play fake on real, real on fake. In practice, you can use melodic and dorian interchangeably by ear. I blame Wes.

    So, here's some stuff on a tune....

    Rhythm Changes A
    Bb6 / Gm7 / Cm7 / F7 / Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 /
    Gm7 Cm7 / Cm6 / Dm7 / Dm6 / Cm7 / Cm6 /
    Fm7 / Bb7 / Eb6 / Ab7 / Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 /
    Fm7 / Fm6 / Eb6 / Ebm6 / Dm7 / Dm6 / Cm7 / Cm6 /

    Or (as a loose outline)
    Bb6 / Gm7 / Cm7 / F7 / Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 /
    Gm Cm Dm Cm
    Fm7 / Bb7 / Eb7 Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 /
    Fm Bbm Dm Cm

    You can also have:

    Rhythm Changes A - altered doms
    Bb6 / Gm7 / Cm7 / F7 / Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 /
    Gm7 Cm7 / Gbm6 / Dm7 / Abm6 / Cm7 / Gbm6 /
    Fm7 / Bb7 / Eb6 / Ab7 / Dm7 / G7 / Cm7 / F7 /
    Fm7 / Bm6 / Eb6 / Am6 / Dm7 / Abm6 / Cm7 / Gbm6 /

    And appreciate how the altered dominant is just a tritone away.

    I find this type of thinking helpful sometimes. However if you play m7/m6 all the time you will sound like a jazz textbook.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-30-2019 at 05:09 PM.

  13. #37

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    I have no idea WTF you guys are talking about
    I know, we can tell :-)

  14. #38

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    Eb6 to Ab7.

    Typo?

    I didn't follow the "fake" vs "real" minor terminology, but the rest looked straightforward enough.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Eb6 to Ab7.

    Typo?

    I didn't follow the "fake" vs "real" minor terminology, but the rest looked straightforward enough.
    No it's not a typo. That's one variant of rhythm changes.
    EDIT: oh I misunderstood. Yes, indeed.

    Yeah, was just trying to make it fun and a bit silly. But that is actually how I view it, and there's some reasoning behind it.

    m7 is a predominant chord really, it didn't get used much as a tonic minor sound before modal jazz. m6 is one of true tonic minor sounds. Barry Harris doesn't even consider m7 chords to be minor, but inversions of 6 chords.

    Minor pentatonic isn't true minor either BTW. It can work in more modern music of course but I'm talking about the tradition here. I believe this is what Martino is fundamentally based on, might be wrong, but I get that impression from what I've seen. He's a bebop cat, all said and done.

  16. #40

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  17. #41

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    Mark -

    But playing fill-in lines over shapes and arpeggios isn't really minorisation. Minorisation is what you said at the beginning -

    (In other words, thinking of, say, D- for ii and the V7 chord in C. That is the simplest example.)

    A few common examples: using Dm7 over both the ii and V in C. More interestingly, Dm7 over the ii, Fm7 over the G7 and Em7 over the C.
    That's what we've been discussing, I believe. Of course, one can also do the fills on the subbed chords too, that expands it a bit.

    Or am I missing something?