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  1. #1

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    this aplies to all instruments. deep secrets to swing , groove , improvisation , phrasing , phrasing in composition , etc, can be found in the afro bahian brazil ketu candomble rhythms .

    they are like blue prints to the actual evolution of rhythm styles in jazz, which have always been one of the main factors indicating innovative periods in key new styles of jazz history.

    the actual ketu orchestra is three atabaque drums, two play the same thing with two sticks but differant tones, and they are the same patterns as the bell but elaborated and one person solos out front with one stick and a hand. this is like a serious swining jazz combo , the essence of hook up and groove. the bravum pattern has the actual splang a lang beat in one hand against a triplit figure in the other. that right there, that the splang a lang beat is in one of these ketu beats, has to be celibrated in itself. the bell to the bravum, sounds like backwards swing, but is a rhythm in a huge amount of jazz phrasing, including compositions like nows the time by charlie parker. catching these bell parts as phrasing is a key to swinging hard and using them in solos and compositions.

    but, its much more. from joplin, to jelly roll, armstrong hot fives to ellington, to bird, miles , trane wayne etc, all have huge amounts of ketu codes in their playing and composing. the history of jazz rhythm evolution is mapped out in these ketu rhythms, this only scratches the surface. the ramifications are enormous and you really cant listen to jazz the same way once you recognise these ketu codes. and all instruments benafit from discovering this and understanding it. there are secrets of finding intuition in these concepts , which is the secret ingrediant, its in there big time.

    i brought in a thread showing my new york credibility and that i worked a lot there, here is a link to my youtube channal of our record lable and many of my records ( they are still going up) that you can listen to some great music with my huge brazilian influences from living there thirty plus years , just to establish, i have credibility and im transparent about it :

    Bons Ritmos
    - YouTube

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  3. #2

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    Yeah, Congo Square New Orleans and all that. Afro Caribbean rhythms are a huge, well respected part of the jazz roots and tradition.

    I like how it gets stripped down, but implied, in most jazz, because of how busy it is otherwise. Like Miles said, less is more.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post


    this aplies to all instruments. deep secrets to swing , groove , improvisation , phrasing , phrasing in composition , etc, can be found in the afro bahian brazil ketu candomble rhythms .

    they are like blue prints to the actual evolution of rhythm styles in jazz, which have always been one of the main factors indicating innovative periods in key new styles of jazz history.

    the actual ketu orchestra is three atabaque drums, two play the same thing with two sticks but differant tones, and they are the same patterns as the bell but elaborated and one person solos out front with one stick and a hand. this is like a serious swining jazz combo , the essence of hook up and groove. the bravum pattern has the actual splang a lang beat in one hand against a triplit figure in the other. that right there, that the splang a lang beat is in one of these ketu beats, has to be celibrated in itself. the bell to the bravum, sounds like backwards swing, but is a rhythm in a huge amount of jazz phrasing, including compositions like nows the time by charlie parker. catching these bell parts as phrasing is a key to swinging hard and using them in solos and compositions.

    but, its much more. from joplin, to jelly roll, armstrong hot fives to ellington, to bird, miles , trane wayne etc, all have huge amounts of ketu codes in their playing and composing. the history of jazz rhythm evolution is mapped out in these ketu rhythms, this only scratches the surface. the ramifications are enormous and you really cant listen to jazz the same way once you recognise these ketu codes. and all instruments benafit from discovering this and understanding it. there are secrets of finding intuition in these concepts , which is the secret ingrediant, its in there big time.

    i brought in a thread showing my new york credibility and that i worked a lot there, here is a link to my youtube channal of our record lable and many of my records ( they are still going up) that you can listen to some great music with my huge brazilian influences from living there thirty plus years , just to establish, i have credibility and im transparent about it :

    Bons Ritmos
    - YouTube
    Great.

    Are you aware of some academic stuff written on this?

  5. #4
    What blows my mind about the Ketu Rhythms and jazz rhythm evolution history, is how these rhythms shadow each jazz evolution . Even the bata rhythm ( in Cuba , bata is used to describe the whole religious expresion, in Ketu , it's one beat , these Yoruba words got used differently, it appears, in different parts of the Americas where slaves were brought) , in Ketu , can go with a ballad.

    the stickings in Ketu also link it up with jazz drum sticking. I started on bongos and congas and always knew there were hook ups and the shared African roots. But Ketu seems to have blatant parallels, with each jazz rhythm innovation . I know Haiti has stick drumming in its vodoun , but, I don't see as many blatant hook ups to jazz evolution history.

    also, not just grooves show hook up. Bell parts like jinka / bravum, are all over jazz melodies written by the masters. And in phrasing for solos.

    for guitar, this means lots of ideas for writing and soloing, and , insights into comping approaches in the rhythm section. In Ketu , two drums and a bell are almost playing the same duple triple polyrhythms, syncopated and repeated over and over while another drummer solos invoking the gods and tô the dancers.this is a blue print for how a jazz combo works. The more I work on these Rhythms, the more my groove gets centered as I instinctually go more for that as a result of going over and over these grooves.

    then there is the huge benafit in improvisation of getting how much these concepts puts me more in touch with intuition, maybe the deepest aspect of these concepts. Turn off the thinking brain and rely more on our sub concious and intuition, feeling it, grooving it , swinging it...these terms become more clear understanding these concepts. Scientists now say our intuition and subconscious are reacting quicker than the thinking brain , here are music concepts that seem to embody this.

    simplicity repeated over and over to make larger structures....hey, that's the definition of mandlebrots fractal theory....you mean ancient African concepts were a musical expresion of fractal theory? Ha ha, life can sure blow the mind if you look in the right places.

  6. #5
    There are lots of musicians in Salvador who are experts on Ketu, there are books, big bands with arrangements on Ketu , brazilian drummers who have books with candomblé Rhythms ...

    but , I am the only person who has made this deep hook up of Ketu beats and how much they hook up with jazz history evolution. At least I can't find it anywhere else , please let me know if anyone has made this hook up.

    this is a result if my life's work, my serious jazz experience in the USA, I have a thread here of my New York gig tapes, and thirty plus years living in Brazil working with an Afro Brazilian dancer, and the last six years, thanks to my son and the late Bira Reis , pelourinho icon, going deep into Ketu rhythm, not practicing the religion.

    i have the jazz insight and thirty plus years working with Afro bahia dance.

    as far as I know,I'm the only one demonstrating, quite conclusively from this YouTube and one cd I've done


    these profound parallels of Ketu candomblé Rhythms and beats with the evolution of jazz history of rhythm innovation plus phrasing in soloing and writing by the masters.

  7. #6




    i should have brought these in earliar, this is jordi amorim on guitar , from salvador bahia, works with timbalada and rumpilezz the big band that plays over ketu concepts, but doesnt relate it to the history of jazz.

    jordi is 23 and he knows his salvador culture really well and aplies it to the guitar , and, he has gone the extra mile and learned jazz and wayne shorter songs, so this he is a great example to look at for using ketu rhythms in jazz.

    christian miller, just to add to what you asked, i went to ketu candomble beats to expand my knowledge of how to play brazilian rhythms better, those who know, know candomble in its varous nations has the roots for the exiting brazilian popular rhythms we love, samba / bossa , baio, forro, coco etc. and it did expand and improve my concepts of brazilian rhythms a lot. to my surprise, i discovered it also had the blue print for the evolution in rhythm innovation in jazz history.

    i also studied the late bira reies dvd on ketu rhythms which was a game changer to me, but, the whole jazz history hook up was my realisation based on what i knew about jazz. the bravum beat has the splang a lang embedded, so right away i was hooked that jazz had ketu codes. then i would see the ken burns docu or something and i would hear armstrong hot fives and id realise they are phrasing off an opanije cadence. so i just started getting my mind blown each step of realisation.

    now , im not saying jazz musicians studied ketu candomble. im saying that where in brazil ( its the largest population of african descendants outside of nigeria, states like pernambuco and bahia are as diverse in afro brazilian culture as if they were another country ), the afro descendants actualy codified candoble reaching out to their roots and religious beleifs, in america, with drums banned from afro descendants in slavery, there still was the ancient concepts flowing through.black americans were always trying to stay in touch with their culture and roots even as it was banned. with rag time, tap (introdueced by master juba) new orleans and south carolina geechee culture etc , these concepts were intergected in a mish mash manor. but, stong enough that i can see the hook ups with ketu candomble culture and tie both into my african congo records and senagal records and lots of youtubes , including diverse ethnicities like igbo and pygmies, but, ancient african hookups.

    it may seem daunting at first, wow, learning a bunch of new rhythms like each one its own groove. but, once you get in it, it flows like water. even if you just check out my youtube and get the jinka/bravum bell pattern is in jazz greats compositions and solo phrasing and adopt it to your playing or writing, you are going a long way to getting in touch with these roots

    i discovered this hook up and im bringing it into players forums of various instruments to break these concepts . ive sent it to jazz education e mails and critics because this could radicly change the way we look at the history of jazz rhythmic innovations. but they all are stiff so im trying to bring it to the players and students just to get this word out

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    ...you mean ancient African concepts were a musical expresion of fractal theory? Ha ha, life can sure blow the mind if you look in the right places.
    You only need to look as far as the blues... fractal as can be. The progression is compression.

    I - I - I - I - I - I - I - I
    IV - IV - IV - IV
    I - I - I - I
    V - V
    IV - IV
    I
    IV
    I
    V
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  9. #8
    yes, im not surprised..and im only scratching the surface, there are huge things fjor all of us to look at now and discover

    .blues only got drums in the 40's or so. you take the bravum , put a back beat on it and it could work with any blues shuffle..

    that is the thing, yes, there is a connection with all the afro diasporic cultures. jelly roll said that he had the "spanish tinge" in his music , and they always mention the "tresillio" as having an affect on americas cultures, but jelly roll really has a lot of "opanije" in his expresion and the tresillio is really better expressed in "ilu".and you could put a 2/3 clave to express what jelly roll was talking about , but, check it out, opanije is much closer to what he is doing than 2/3 rumba clave

    we should be thinking about it and describing it in yoroba terms not spanish.

    and what is blowing my mind is that we have to go back and re think what afro descendants in the americas were really trying to express and it really helps center me up about how to aproach playing jazz

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post




    i should have brought these in earliar, this is jordi amorim on guitar , from salvador bahia, works with timbalada and rumpilezz the big band that plays over ketu concepts, but doesnt relate it to the history of jazz.

    jordi is 23 and he knows his salvador culture really well and aplies it to the guitar , and, he has gone the extra mile and learned jazz and wayne shorter songs, so this he is a great example to look at for using ketu rhythms in jazz.

    christian miller, just to add to what you asked, i went to ketu candomble beats to expand my knowledge of how to play brazilian rhythms better, those who know, know candomble in its varous nations has the roots for the exiting brazilian popular rhythms we love, samba / bossa , baio, forro, coco etc. and it did expand and improve my concepts of brazilian rhythms a lot. to my surprise, i discovered it also had the blue print for the evolution in rhythm innovation in jazz history.

    i also studied the late bira reies dvd on ketu rhythms which was a game changer to me, but, the whole jazz history hook up was my realisation based on what i knew about jazz. the bravum beat has the splang a lang embedded, so right away i was hooked that jazz had ketu codes. then i would see the ken burns docu or something and i would hear armstrong hot fives and id realise they are phrasing off an opanije cadence. so i just started getting my mind blown each step of realisation.

    now , im not saying jazz musicians studied ketu candomble. im saying that where in brazil ( its the largest population of african descendants outside of nigeria, states like pernambuco and bahia are as diverse in afro brazilian culture as if they were another country ), the afro descendants actualy codified candoble reaching out to their roots and religious beleifs, in america, with drums banned from afro descendants in slavery, there still was the ancient concepts flowing through.black americans were always trying to stay in touch with their culture and roots even as it was banned. with rag time, tap (introdueced by master juba) new orleans and south carolina geechee culture etc , these concepts were intergected in a mish mash manor. but, stong enough that i can see the hook ups with ketu candomble culture and tie both into my african congo records and senagal records and lots of youtubes , including diverse ethnicities like igbo and pygmies, but, ancient african hookups.

    it may seem daunting at first, wow, learning a bunch of new rhythms like each one its own groove. but, once you get in it, it flows like water. even if you just check out my youtube and get the jinka/bravum bell pattern is in jazz greats compositions and solo phrasing and adopt it to your playing or writing, you are going a long way to getting in touch with these roots

    i discovered this hook up and im bringing it into players forums of various instruments to break these concepts . ive sent it to jazz education e mails and critics because this could radicly change the way we look at the history of jazz rhythmic innovations. but they all are stiff so im trying to bring it to the players and students just to get this word out
    Great, please write a book and get it published so I can cite it! ;-)

    I’m doing an MA in music education. My special interest is how to teach or more accurately how to provide a student with a clear background on jazz rhythm. I’ve obviously known about the hookup with West African rhythm and jazz swing for some time - like many I teach the Afro-Cuban Bembe bell pattern to help players understand phrasing and swing, but what impressed me is how specific this is and the fact that it can also talk meaningfully about different types of swing feel.

    Now that’s great for me and my student’s studies. Problem is the academic literature is pretty sketchy when it comes to jazz rhythm. In fact to be honest jazz pedagogy does not seem well represented in the literature generally, most of the stuff I can find is classical.

    You might say ‘rhythm is experiential and hands on, not academic’ and be 100% right, but that’s not how the academic literature works. I suppose the place to dig into is ethnomusicology but that link with jazz seems largely unexplored, unless I’m just not finding the materials online.

    One place I could cite is Schuller’s early jazz. But the more we have on this the better imo.

    Anyway great stuff, I’ll be going down this rabbit hole...
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-14-2019 at 10:45 AM.

  11. #10
    christian

    really great what you wrote, my e mail is at the end of the clip i brought in , feel free to cantact me about anything and i will go into your website and look for your contact.

    i think the cuban bembe and other rhythms are a fantastic way to notice the hook ups and ive always wondered why they seperate "latin jazz" from jazz , because they are a lot closer than odd times and free jazz to the roots of jazz.

    i started on bongos and congas so i value cuban culture very much, and i agree with you , i think this ketu is even more elaborated about these hookups . i mean brazil is enormous and was the biggest slave holding country in the americas so it makes sence that it has huge amounts of information about the culture of the people brought over in slavery.

    i agree totaly there is a blind spot in the educational system and its important for all of us to fill in the gaps as we can, so, im going down the rabbit hole also with you on this , i agree these are crux issues that can make us improvise better...im just scratching the surface with what ive talked about and im still learning the "rum" , the solo part with one hand and stick ( there is that yoroba using rum in ketu as the solo , but is "rum"ba in cuban), and each rhythm could take a nice time to explain it and how it is in jazz , what era, what cuts. there is still a lot that is revealing it self to me so this is by no means a finished thing.

    one thing, to all of us jazz players, we already are working with these concepts . any gigs that play standards or funk or rumbas or rock , blues etc , we are already dealing with these concepts, so its not about learning something foreign or totaly out of our realm. we subconciously know these concpets as part of our america and americas culture. just like we know a chord done by tyner with trane can be found first in bartok , these grooves , rhythms ,phrasings and melody phrases have origins we can plug into and give us more insights....thanks for your insights

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Great, please write a book and get it published so I can cite it! ;-)



    Now that’s great for me and my student’s studies. Problem is the academic literature is pretty sketchy when it comes to jazz rhythm. In fact to be honest jazz pedagogy does not seem well represented in the literature generally, most of the stuff I can find is classical.

    You might say ‘rhythm is experiential and hands on, not academic’ and be 100% right, but that’s not how the academic literature works. I suppose the place to dig into is ethnomusicology but that link with jazz seems largely unexplored, unless I’m just not finding the materials online.
    I read Bernsteins Doctoral thesis in my local library in the mid eighties, it was bundled with one of his biographies. I can't find it online as, well, the quality of information online, and the people discussing it ,rarely compete with the era of truth.

    A short search however lead to this link and it contains the first part of the title. 'The Absorption of Race Elements Into American....'

    JSTOR: Access Check

    I have mixed feelings about sharing this information as Christian is so obviously on the wrong path.

    You build a house from the ground up.

    You cannot have the penthouse floating above the ground as you pretend that the foundations are unnecessary.

    Still if one has a large enough sandpit one might start from the top. It is then a simple matter of making sure that your supervisor is also working without foundations, head in the sand, burrowing towards no clear destination.

    I personally would be troubled that all the people who started with a humble shack, made it waterproof, put a fence round the yard and laid foundations for their second go were ACTUALLY learning about house building whilst the people in the children's play area get a different education entirely.

    Noone ever built a palace who hadn't first built a shack, least not one that they could invite people into and expect them to be comfortable and not feel wet.

    Don

  13. #12
    i could be misunderstanding you, and, i cant speak for christian , but, im talking about foundation, when you play jazz, maybe the most important part of foundation.

    every thing about the word "foundation" in jazz , would have to ask the question " what groove are you playing ?" how does the rhythm section interact? if one person is playing from one era of jazz history, it might clash with an aproach to another. what phrasing are you using ? what melody phrasing can swing the hardest ?

    you can look at foundations of harmony and melody , from the european classical tradition , and , how that is translated into blues , 12 bar and aaba ( looking at the historic "foundation" of these forms as they were played in jazz).

    but, groove, swing, cross rhythm, syncopation , phrasing in rhythm and written melodies , is what makes jazz unique and seperates it from other traditions

    so these ketu candomble beats that seem to be a blue print for evolutions in jazz rhythm aproach history , whether a drummer, or lead player phrasing ,or rhythm section aproach , all seem to have ketu codes embedded in lots of places ( not all by any means). so , this is speaking forcefully to the secrets of these foundations . secrets that explains so much about how the great jazz innovators were aproaching swing and groove and phrasings, improvisations ( the mental aspect of improvising is all in ketu candomble with a soloist out front with three backing accompyaning percusionists going in the same direction in a two against three pollyrhythmic call responce repeated syncopated phrase laying dowm a monster groove) and about the foundation of how to play jazz , and improvise using european tuning and harmonic concepts though not always.

    the whole fundimental question in jazz improvisation ,about how do you get in touch with your intuition , seems to be unbeleivably crucialy linked to the "foundation" of playing jazz in the first place.....is all up in there in ketu candomble beats and drum dance concepts. i sure hear all those old greats and legends differant now, with a much deeper understanding of what they are trying to do.

    this definitly isnt anything to do with what bernstein could say about the absortion of race elements into america. he would only be theorising . you cant read about this , you have to hear it , see the dance, feel it . a book can give you one thing not another.

  14. #13
    what are you doing when you take a solo on the guitar in a jazz 12 bar blues or aaba form?

    do you play lines ? play things you transcribed? when you are out there improvising , what is going on? what is your referance? intelectual ? are you feeling anything? are you looking to express feelings? go into alpha state? intuition?

    guitar, you are rhythm section player, what is your referance? what are you suposed to be doing ? are you deciding to affect a certain era of jazz? for sure each era is very demanding in what makes it unique to the other eras...

    what do you think you owe the bass and drums in the rhythm section? as a soloist, do you think you owe the rhythm section some kind of hook up?

    i played a jazz lounge gig with a guitar player who went through the educational system, for jazz. we played so what, he had transcribed the solo, and , could play it, great, it was cool, come back to the rhythm section and he lost the form down the way...of so what (?)

    holding the form is one of the most important things you have to do..this guy didnt get trained right.

    paper...in jazz...yeah, i know , super important to read, giging life demands it, writing tunes demands it, it is crucial in jazz and todays music...

    yet, all my favorite jazz groups , my icons ,who can read and write , the shows they did, the youtubes they have of my favoritie cuts, they arnt reading...they are feeling it....lots of bebop was based off familiarity with older harmonic progresions they had all played. they embellished them, but, it was about familiarity , simplicity to build on that...

    all this , all all of this is in the ketu candomble concepts, sure, not the harmonic or tuning , but so much of the other aspects are in there...

    and, to a certain extent, when it comes to jazz, you have to answer the same way the musiciains in the movie ( im sure it was differant in real life haha) of james brown had to answer james brown's question about their insturments " what is this?"
    the answer " the drum"....in jazz yes, this is part of it, part of imrovisation, soloing, rhythm section and writing

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
    I have mixed feelings about sharing this information as Christian is so obviously on the wrong path.

    You build a house from the ground up.

    You cannot have the penthouse floating above the ground as you pretend that the foundations are unnecessary.

    Still if one has a large enough sandpit one might start from the top. It is then a simple matter of making sure that your supervisor is also working without foundations, head in the sand, burrowing towards no clear destination.

    I personally would be troubled that all the people who started with a humble shack, made it waterproof, put a fence round the yard and laid foundations for their second go were ACTUALLY learning about house building whilst the people in the children's play area get a different education entirely.

    Noone ever built a palace who hadn't first built a shack, least not one that they could invite people into and expect them to be comfortable and not feel wet.

    Don
    I think I'm among a very SMALL minority who actually ENJOYS a good bit of analogy in talking about these sorts of things, but even for ME, this reads as mostly nonsensical. No idea what you're talking about whatsoever as you're not making a specific point about anything concrete. You're making metaphorical references to something which you haven't clearly stated in the first place.

    Beyond all that, it's weird and rude to talk about someone in third person while dismissing what they're saying. It's a forum. Discuss the TOPIC with the person who posted whatever it is you're addressing.

  16. #15

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    The evolution of music that eventually became jazz is like a long distance game of "telephone."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
    I read Bernsteins Doctoral thesis in my local library in the mid eighties, it was bundled with one of his biographies. I can't find it online as, well, the quality of information online, and the people discussing it ,rarely compete with the era of truth.

    A short search however lead to this link and it contains the first part of the title. 'The Absorption of Race Elements Into American....'

    JSTOR: Access Check

    I have mixed feelings about sharing this information as Christian is so obviously on the wrong path.

    You build a house from the ground up.

    You cannot have the penthouse floating above the ground as you pretend that the foundations are unnecessary.

    Still if one has a large enough sandpit one might start from the top. It is then a simple matter of making sure that your supervisor is also working without foundations, head in the sand, burrowing towards no clear destination.

    I personally would be troubled that all the people who started with a humble shack, made it waterproof, put a fence round the yard and laid foundations for their second go were ACTUALLY learning about house building whilst the people in the children's play area get a different education entirely.

    Noone ever built a palace who hadn't first built a shack, least not one that they could invite people into and expect them to be comfortable and not feel wet.

    Don
    I don’t think you understand how buildings work.

  18. #17

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    Seriously, if I were to enumerate and thoroughly explore the ways in which absorption of jazz into academia was deeply problematic I’d be claiming a PhD, not an MA.

    Not that I know that’s what’s being discussed. Donkey’s post was a bit of a Rorschach ink blot tbh.

  19. #18
    jazz and improvisation is so fascinating to me, as any instruments, if we are playing jazz, there are so many facets about improvisation to talk about.

    i love combo playing. that is why i play jazz. big band can have huge power and everything is geared to go in the right direction.

    but combo playing is the fillet mignon of what improvisational playing is all about. open feild running, intimite communication by three or four or five players , if they are in the jazz foundation , with that monster swing bop feel and a pre ornette form that still allows for groove and feel to dominate . some great jazz certainly fits that discription .

    so what is the spark of improvisation? what motivates you all? i know what motivates me. improvising and feeling it has always been something i have loved, i didnt have to work at it. and its what i want to do until the end now. nothing else haha

    its that going into your intuition ,trusting it, and, in actuality , turning off your thinking brain to let your sub concious take over. its working faster than your thinking brain , you have to learn to let go and trust it...when you are in a furious up bop 12 bar blues , so fast you can barely feel four bars go by, ther is that point you have to hold hands with your bandmates , like you are in a storm trying to make it through , you know its 12 bar blues , but in the middle of a hurricaine...that is when you let your intuition take over , and desperatly hold hands and help your bandstand players with one . and its amazing , this whole improvisation thing in jazz.

    and these dynamics are in play like that with ketu beats. three people hold their part , its almost the same with distintions, two guys play ogdavis , two slender sticks and play the same thing, that follows closely to the bell, then the solo guy plays one stick and one hand , its called "rum". this is like a combo. ive showed they are under some parts of joplin, jelly roll, armstrong, ellington, miles, bird , coltrane. in their phrasings also , in melodies of songs they wrote.they cover fast exciting call responce, medium bouncy swing that is the splang a lang beat and a beat that captures the splang a langity of elvin with the same bouncy bell part, a 3/4 feeling that covers anything from all blues to juju to my favorite things, to even a rhythm called bata that fits with ballads ...wow , how much more before one has to ask what is going on here?

    so, what is going on in ketu candomble , the afro bahian brazilian religous rites that they hid behind catholic saints to represent their dieties ? the same as cuban santera ,and haitian voudoun ? even into the black american church that had no drums , they were banned?

    one thing is possecian . by the diety . in the black american church it would represent getting the feeling from the holy ghost which is like being possesed, sometimes going to the floor.

    what is this really? someone gets possesed by the drums calling a certain diety and everyone is dancing a certain dance and singing a call responce chant and someone gets possesed . these are just the same rituals and paramaters any religion has , but, this one has drums and dancing , and , its the act of turning off your concious brain and going into the sub concious world ,feeling comes into play , intuition , things you dont even realise you have inside like a gigantic universe .

    look, for me, truth is the concepts of the rhythm and dance came first , the feeling , the centering of the body and soul , these beats are meant to go to a dance, this is ancient africa for sure , igbo to pygmies is a gigantic ethnic differance but they have the same concepts.

    all religions in their prayer try to reach some kind of state of letting go . but this religion is directly from these ancient african concepts , that covered all aspects of life not just religion, and the ancient shamons knew how to use these musical concepts to enhance his presentation. like handels massiah .

    but these happen to be the codes in jazz rhythm and dance also. and in improvisation , there has to be this element of letting go and trusting your intuition , and letting your sub concious push your expresion, emotions come out , expresions come out, and its off this polly rhythmic call responce simple repetitive groove that drives over and over to build larger structures. the soloist guarentees its differant every time, like waves, like life,that is why we relate so hard to it . something seems so right

    and the ketu candomble codes tell big secrets how to tap into this deeper intuition , sub concious flow over powerful grooves

  20. #19

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    Which Ketu code(s) do you hear in this recording?



    I can see how much of the 20s stuff is very Opanije influenced, and also how Jinka/Bravum tended to dominate after the war.... But the Kansas City swing of early Basie and so on seems to be different again...

  21. #20
    christian, i just got the notice of this post , and , sorry im dealing with a cd that is tanking so im circling my wagons hahah

    definitly lots of " bravum"and "jinka". "bravum" has the splang a lang embedded in the two drums that play the same thing with sticks , the "pi" and "le", with the other hand playing a triplit.

    in both "bravum " and "jinka" the bell is the same, and it has the feel of "jingle bell rock", if you just take the phrase "jingle bell". if you say the phrase in that tune over and over "jingle bell" with no tone, try this test:

    start hearing that phrase over and over in your head as you listen to that cut and see how many times the solo invokes that phrase, even as part of a longer phrase . if its stringed eigth notes , we know in swing to make the eigthn notes swing in our head. so , think "jingabelly/jingabelly" for a string of eigth notes .its amazing how often the soloists phrases have the "jingle bell " inside the longer phrases , and it is a big goose to the swing feeling, a great pivot

    yes, the unison horn lick at the end evokes "opanije", and 2/3 clave, ive just found "opanije" is more close to the feel . because , i find that in american jazz history, these ketu codes are mish mash .you might find two or three in one song, in the phrasing, in the unison lines, in the head,in the rhythm section, in an accent somewhere. where "ketu candomble" is codified and each groove is its own and goes forever.

    another lick i hear all the time in this ear jazz is "tatadiggity/tatadigitty" that a soloist uses. ive heard piano players do this and guitar players , also in blues guitar, its a common lick. sometimes just going down a scale

    its the "pi" and "le" ( the two drums playing the same thing") part to "jinka"
    "bravum" and "jinka" dominate the swing era up to miles kind of blue modal jazz

    sorry i got this late. im happy to check out any music you are curious about and try to break it down

  22. #21
    i misspelled "ear jazz" , i meant to say "this era of jazz"

    this is an incredable thing for me , christian, because once i cracked this code, i cant listen to jazz the same ever again

    now, i hear these ketu codes pouring out in a big way. its a fantastic way to define what is going on, and very hands on about bringing it right away to the bandstand. like , in medium or slow swing, i started using my bass drum to accent like the bravum / jinka bell , occasionaly. i had done it befor but didnt know what i was doing, now when i do it, it has much more purpose and definition

  23. #22

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    Erm... Why don't I quite believe in all this? Like no one could have thought of a bouncy swingy rhythm all by themselves? Without it being related to/derived from some manic Afro drumming thing I've never heard of before?

    Da Vinci codes!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    christian, i just got the notice of this post , and , sorry im dealing with a cd that is tanking so im circling my wagons hahah

    definitly lots of " bravum"and "jinka". "bravum" has the splang a lang embedded in the two drums that play the same thing with sticks , the "pi" and "le", with the other hand playing a triplit.

    in both "bravum " and "jinka" the bell is the same, and it has the feel of "jingle bell rock", if you just take the phrase "jingle bell". if you say the phrase in that tune over and over "jingle bell" with no tone, try this test:

    start hearing that phrase over and over in your head as you listen to that cut and see how many times the solo invokes that phrase, even as part of a longer phrase . if its stringed eigth notes , we know in swing to make the eigthn notes swing in our head. so , think "jingabelly/jingabelly" for a string of eigth notes .its amazing how often the soloists phrases have the "jingle bell " inside the longer phrases , and it is a big goose to the swing feeling, a great pivot

    yes, the unison horn lick at the end evokes "opanije", and 2/3 clave, ive just found "opanije" is more close to the feel . because , i find that in american jazz history, these ketu codes are mish mash .you might find two or three in one song, in the phrasing, in the unison lines, in the head,in the rhythm section, in an accent somewhere. where "ketu candomble" is codified and each groove is its own and goes forever.

    another lick i hear all the time in this ear jazz is "tatadiggity/tatadigitty" that a soloist uses. ive heard piano players do this and guitar players , also in blues guitar, its a common lick. sometimes just going down a scale

    its the "pi" and "le" ( the two drums playing the same thing") part to "jinka"
    "bravum" and "jinka" dominate the swing era up to miles kind of blue modal jazz

    sorry i got this late. im happy to check out any music you are curious about and try to break it down
    No you were super prompt haha.... sorry that the cd isn’t doing so well, I know that feeling lol

  25. #24

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    Btw I’m having a lot of fun playing with this. I think the value of it for me atm is the way it gives you little rhythmic patterns and grooves to base your lines on that lock in really well. I’ll do a video of it when I’m ready and link it here to get your thoughts if that’s cool.

    Opanije is a lot of fun with the baby dodds woodblock pattern on Drum Genius.... I’ve always been intuitively aware that early jazz has this straighter, different sort of swing, but it’s cool to pin it down. I listened to Potato Head Blues again today and I couldn’t not hear that pattern....

  26. #25

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    Also do I detect a distinct Opanije influence in James Brown?

  27. #26
    ragman1, the reason you cant fathom this is because it has never been talked about before. there is nothing out there that remontly has ever tried to link ketu candomble beats with the evolution of the history of jazz.

    " Like no one could have thought of a bouncy swingy rhythm all by themselves?" .....like "spontaneous generation"? theory that life could come out of no where from seeing maggots apear on meat , a theory supported by scientists back in the day.

    ragman, there are so many hookpups , its way too many to be conincidental. but then again, i hear the hookups all throgh the americas to what also happened in the usa, in their perspective cultures. all very same evolution where people were brought as slaves to the americas, in great numbers. the music drum dance culture began to dominate the perspective places they were brought to, becoming the foundations of the beats and dances of their popular cultures.

    look what happened in cuba, haiti and brazil, their attempt to establish their religous heritages from where they came from in africa, all hid their dieties behind the catholic saints. how did that happen so similarily?

    brazil is the largest slave importing country from africa in the americas. they have more evolutions of the african cultures that were banned than any other country in the americas. they have things that relate to cuba, things that relate haiti, things that relate to the usa , from the descendants of slaves from africa

    the reason these codes are in jazz is because they are the same people in slavery. the more we understand the culture where they come from , the more we will get what jazz is all about in its execusion ( not its harmonic music theory ). its like if you understand western european classical harmonic concepts, you can understand more about jazz...not the blues but the tonal system and harmonic tricks used in chord changes. it just gives someone the edge. you dont have to be a classical music player to play jazz, but, the harmomic theory understanding of the principles of european classical music sure dont hurt. can give you a leg up in some ways.

    same with this. heck, you could call them "igbo" codes , or "yoroba codes", but, the origins from africa are more complex , more pollyrhythmic, more powerful even. but something about how they broke down ketu candomble beats in brazil , had to accomodate other tribes who were sometimes enemies in africa, made a codification that amazingly hit a lot of concepts being put forth by joplin to jelly roll to armstrong - ellington etc. there is stuff in cuban beats and dances that relates too, jelly roll would talk about the "spanish tinge", but he meant the yoroba tinge. there are hand drum beats in candomble de angola that are very similar to other beat concepts in the usa, especialy boogaloo congas, or use clave like cuba, that is how vast brazil is , its got huge amounts of cultural expresions based on african descendants trying to preserve their culture while its being banned and destroyed by the people who put them in slavery.

    the ketu candomble with sticks is what blew my mind because i started seeing how it relates to drum kit ( make no mistake, the early examples i gave didnt use drums at all so its deeper than just drums). i play hand drums too and knew that there were hookpups to jazz, but, these stickings make it deeper. and there were so many variities , not just 6/8, it has a bunch in 6/8, but, a bunch that had this bouncy swing jazz feel, others that explained rhythm and blues beats, and these beats are also recognised as the basis for brazilian pop rhythms. even one pattern called "bata"not to be confused with the cuban term "bata" that refers to all their religous drumming , that you could fit under any ballad in jazz that has a normal 4/4 flow.

    way too much for coincedence

    im not saying you have to learn this, you dont have to do the math that einstein did to understand his theory, just absorb what he said and see how it fits with your daily perceptions...like when they told us the earth goes around the sun...at the time it just didnt make sence...if you kind of get what im saying, it will dramaticly alter your perception of some things in jazz

  28. #27
    let me tell you, when i first got to brazil, and went to an escola de samba, my jaw dropped , not just because of the awesome percusion, not just because of the incredable dance the samba, but , the whole thing was like being in a strange convexed mirror of some school dance in america playing james brown or motown

    i was very lucky to be a white guy who was accepted in the black community where im from when i grew up, accepted into the social scene and would go to the parties , and, we would dance our behinds off..it was a great era for music and dance in american culture and it was my social background and it marked me for life, the whole music beat dance social thing. jazz era was even bigger for dances and rhythms .

    it just blew my mind that being at that escola de samba was like some psycadelic convex mirror of what it was like at black american parties and dances ,except bigger and badder . incredably visceral , wonderful body movements that used all fulcrums of the body. powerful afro diasporic grooves.

    there was no doubt in my mind about the parralel hookups that were going on between the usa and brazil inspite of a lot of anti americanism and huge denials of ever being influenced by american culture . of course their are radical differances , but, the hookups are huge . parralel hookups, black americans didnt study ketu candomble

  29. #28
    christian, your comments came in when i was typing

    for sure if i hear the specific beat of james brown i could try to break it down from what i know...there is also parralels to hand drums of candomble de angola , to the boogaloo congas

    the blues and funk and hip hop, sure have just basic hook ups with these concepts. i can take a blues shuffle , play it bravum and catch the back beat and it fits like a charm

    "ilu" is all over the jazz and funk ...some stuff by ray charles or martha and the vandellas , ilu slips right in there as well as the left handed part slowed way down hits some ray charles and horace silver and bossa nova and olodum

    you are getting exactly what im saying...you start down this rode and it will give you feedback and tricks right away you can use om the bandstand....id love to hear what you are coming up with...once you go down the rabbit hole there is no turning back hahahaha

    because it is the origins, you cant go wrong , its an open pallette....above all, just another weapon in your armory to make you a better player,

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    ragman1, the reason you cant fathom this is because it has never been talked about before. there is nothing out there that remontly has ever tried to link ketu candomble beats with the evolution of the history of jazz.
    You're right :-)

  31. #30

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    Brazil took 35% of the 10 million or so slaves taken from Africa, The Caribbean another 50% & The US less than 4%. It's not surprising that the music survived best in South America & the Caribbean Islands. On a side note I spent much of my 20's & 30's (& 40's) in various parts of West Africa - Including 10 years as the only European in a 180,000 population town. I soon found that playing Afro-Cuban music would fill my house with people a generation older than me asking to borrow my cassettes, my peers asked why I listened to old people music. Jazz was headphones only - guests left & neighbours turned up & suggested things I should play instead (I had LOTS of Cassettes to choose from). The only exception was Elvin Jones, I was asked twice if I could just play the drum track without that other noise. (Coltrane). The Blues Brothers Movie was appreciated but not the blues...

  32. #31

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    Yeah I was nerding out about medieval music on Wikipedia today, and it reminded me of a term I’d forgotten - rhythmic mode. In the Middle Ages they had rhythmic and melodic modes.

    So, we can write and improvise on melodic modes, but also rhythmic modes, and that makes sense to me because to pick an obvious example, we have clave in Cuban music. But Parker’s music often seems to relate the clave to me...

    It’s interesting that the idea of giving raw pitch material to budding improvisers is absolutely standard - be it blues scales, modes, chord tones or whatever - but as soon as you suggest providing raw rhythmic material for the same purposes people start going on about how it should be purely intuitive. As if this is somehow different from learning a rhythmic pattern in percussion and how to embellish and vary it...

  33. #32
    ragman1...haha or im just a babbling old idiot out of my gourd, thinking he has found the rosetta stone of jazz history evolution and compares himself to einstein blahahahahaha...(they are coming to take me away...they are coming to take me away...)

    dot75 , ive always wanted to visit a west african country ...i always since a kid , got traditional african drumming records, not that i have a huge collection stashed away anywhere, and youtube is a godsend if you love traditional african drum dance

    they say brasil is the second to largest afro descendant population , next to nigera on the planet...and the united states is third largest afro descendant population ( who knew?) actualy all that could be just rumor , i read it somewhere , but cant link it , but, on the one hand not , maybe close to true , and on the other, the tremendous blood mixture from indinigous and the colonizers has to make it a differant situation than the people of africa, but africa has the most widest ethnic variety of the world ....so, now its confusing hahaha

    christian, yeah, its like we have to learn all about groove and rhythm on our own hahahahaha sounds like something else we had to learn all on our own
    did you try the jingle bell bravum bell trick with that cut you brought in? the thing to know is that sometimes in jazz, they are mixing these ketu codes so there are a couple going on sometimes (in reguards to basie, but papa jo jones innovated bravum into the ride pattern).. i would need to hear each cut by a master to analyse what ketu codes they are using or mixing...which is so cool ...gosh , i never was an armstrong enthusiest , im not going to start an armstrong tribute band , but i have listened to more armstrong , jelly roll and joplin more than i ever had ...discovered a new respect ...let alone how much it compliments what i do intend to play . like you said , i cannot not notice opanije in armstrong ...its like i have to go back and listen to everything all over again ...wow that is mind blowing, for what ever reason just to get the feeling you have to go back and check all that hip jazz all over again ..that sais a lot about jazz

  34. #33

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    OK, so here's a thing, obvious relationship between the Opanije bell pattern



    And Buddy Bolden's Big Four beat demonstrated by Wynton Marsalis


  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    christian, yeah, its like we have to learn all about groove and rhythm on our own hahahahaha sounds like something else we had to learn all on our own
    I can't imagine what you are referring to ;-)

    Swiftly moving on, I do not feel quite so alone when I go to a course on Samba, for instance. The teachers are VERY specific on what to play, what is Samba and what is not. It's great!

    Beginners jazz course - 'here's some notes make some shit up.' And then none of it sounds like jazz.

    I used to think this was a failure of the academic institutions, but you seem to be saying the reasons for this are at least in part historical, and down to the exact nature of slavery in the US. You know, to a certain extent I get the impression even someone like Wynton who was steeped in these rhythms from an early age and clearly feels them all intuitively is conceptualising things in his own way for the purposes of education and outreach.

    So turning to Brazil for inspiration seems a lot more sensible in this light for people like myself not born into a musical family in NOLA.

    We may or may not rename Opanije as 'the early jazz clave' or call Bravum something like 'swing phrasing clave' or whatever, but the rhythms are clearly THERE in the music.

    did you try the jingle bell bravum bell trick with that cut you brought in? the thing to know is that sometimes in jazz, they are mixing these ketu codes so there are a couple going on sometimes (in reguards to basie, but papa jo jones innovated bravum into the ride pattern).. i would need to hear each cut by a master to analyse what ketu codes they are using or mixing...which is so cool ...gosh , i never was an armstrong enthusiest , im not going to start an armstrong tribute band , but i have listened to more armstrong , jelly roll and joplin more than i ever had ...discovered a new respect ...let alone how much it compliments what i do intend to play . like you said , i cannot not notice opanije in armstrong ...its like i have to go back and listen to everything all over again ...wow that is mind blowing, for what ever reason just to get the feeling you have to go back and check all that hip jazz all over again ..that sais a lot about jazz
    I'd be interested to know any further thoughts regarding this and the development of jazz drumming.

  36. #35
    Yeah, that opanije clip is music tô my ears...

    i was just thinking of this wynton explanation of the bass drum, thanks for bringing it in.

    yes, I agree totally , we may not be able to call these things clave of jazz, but , they are definitely in there !

    that is where I say , in American music, these codes come in mishmash.in Brazil , its codified and definite in Ketu, but popular brazilian music it gets mishmashed too.

    wynton takes it back to marching band evolutions, but , what is driving that? I see it as a people trying to grab and retain a culture that was stripped and banned. So all over the Americas , these new expressions of that culture banned , start evolving. And it's so strong, they become the foundations of the beats and dances of the popular culture.

    ketu is just a great blueprint of where these evolutions came from.it just has a lot of information.

    so here goes the babbling

    i discovered in Ketu , how you take jinka , keep the pi and le thing the same , and add one beat to the bell and it becomes 3/4 salto

    slow ilu way down and use just the left hand part and it's bossa, olodum, ray Charles, Horace silver etc

    there is this incredible way these beats evolve interconnected , that add, subtract, slow it , speed it up,take a triple meter and make it duple, that it always creates something new, usually coupled with a dance. It's always open to innovation

    simplicity repeated over and over that creates larger structures, the fractal concept, and improvisation means it's different every time, like every wave is different in the ocean .

    this explains all these incredible music styles all over the Americas with Afro diaspóric roots, each unique , evolving but related.

    your choice of the Cuban bell part is equally valid to discover properties of swing.

    why jazz separated from Latin jazz , and made it seperate catagory , is beyond me, they are closer related than odd times, odd bars and over kicked accented arrangements.

    you can be anywhere in the world , and if you plug into these concepts , you can get it...and you seem plugged in, hone your up bop think quick technique, with these techniques and you can't go wrong

  37. #36
    Há, auto correct made sato salto , há , it's sato

    Man im just starting tô break down baby dodds , I used to just say , yeah , there is pops and baby dodds. The history of jazz ..let the Dixieland cats show you etc

    now , it's all back to the drawing board...

    many times in early jazz they are doing om pa om pa , with the bass drum figure wynton was talking about, it's the front cats putting out opanije, ilu etc kicks. The drums have lots of rolls and buzz strokes...

    you got second line influence, all these things coming together.

    right now, I don't want to get on the kit and recreate these great drummers, it's more listening and going aha, check that out. I am practicing some rolls they are doing and throwing in some opanije bass drum , and saying wow , look how that works , but nothing ready for prime time in stage.

    what I have done and recorded and taken on stage , is take a bunch of Ketu beats and transferred them to drum kit, with fantastic results.

    but this plug into older jazz styles and what is going on was totally unexpected on my part, I can only follow these insights to where they lead. And it's blowing my mind.

  38. #37
    Final babble in this rambling this morning

    one of the big picture lessons from exploring Ketu is how people holding down these simple repeated syncopated three against two polyrhythmic grooves is , allows you to turn off your thinking brain and allows the sub conscious and intuition to come out front, and this is deeply powerful.

    this isn't trance drumming , it's more alpha state . The repeated pollyrythm gives each bar a nuclear power inside that is the difference in the ancient African concepts from most other world concepts, notice I say most. South India has some grooves , but , the Dravidians who settled there came from Africa 10,000 years ago, so, maybe they brought it.

    but, this Taylor made for intuition and sub conscious to come forward , is the gift of ancient Africa .

    i lament hearing many people here talking if problems improvising. Of getting past technique and letting go soloing. And the secrets to that are all up in these concepts .

    the religious parts of these ancient African concepts are al, about possession Letting a diety take over your soul...the music came first, the shamans knew how to funnel these concepts into a religion, but, principles of the music came before the religion.

    the secrets how to let go and allow intuition to take over are in these incredible drum dance concepts from ancient Africa

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos View Post
    Final babble in this rambling this morning

    one of the big picture lessons from exploring Ketu is how people holding down these simple repeated syncopated three against two polyrhythmic grooves is , allows you to turn off your thinking brain and allows the sub conscious and intuition to come out front, and this is deeply powerful.

    this isn't trance drumming , it's more alpha state . The repeated pollyrythm gives each bar a nuclear power inside that is the difference in the ancient African concepts from most other world concepts, notice I say most. South India has some grooves , but , the Dravidians who settled there came from Africa 10,000 years ago, so, maybe they brought it.

    but, this Taylor made for intuition and sub conscious to come forward , is the gift of ancient Africa .

    i lament hearing many people here talking if problems improvising. Of getting past technique and letting go soloing. And the secrets to that are all up in these concepts .

    the religious parts of these ancient African concepts are al, about possession Letting a diety take over your soul...the music came first, the shamans knew how to funnel these concepts into a religion, but, principles of the music came before the religion.

    the secrets how to let go and allow intuition to take over are in these incredible drum dance concepts from ancient Africa
    That really struck me. There is of course the same thing in the (not just European but also Near Eastern and North African) Hellenic cultures, which is the original meaning of the Latin word Genius, which was the same thing as Genie, or Djinn. In Greek, Daemon. The same concept in ancient Egypt... The muses of antiquity and so on. Somebody's genius was literally the spirit that seized them.

    This concept survived Christianity too, but not capitalism. Our modern understanding comes from the 18th century.

    In today's post industrial capitalist world we think of genius as being a possession, not a possessor.

    The phrase 'Bach's great genius' now has a meaning almost contrary to its original, one which I suspect Bach would have regarded as blasphemous. Man is now the master of his destiny, rather than a vessel for higher entities that might use him as their instrument. (Note that I use the old fashioned gendered language.)

    (And in the 18th century, certain humans could also possess and sell other humans, including quite a few of those Enlightment thinkers.)

    Nowadays in what gets called Western Culture, we tend to reject things that are not rooted in measurable science. But there is a great folly here, because while science is a great thing, it is not fundamentally everything we experience or know, and I actually think scientists are more aware of this than you would think from the positivist scientism that dominates mainstream thought.

    From the subjective point of view of the human sphere, the ancient way of viewing these things makes sense and is more useful. We may not in fact think of ourselves of becoming vessels for deities, but that idea of surrender and the music passing through us is not just some New Age Woo Woo shit, but literally a concrete reality and a technique of the mind that we have to cultivate every day in order to play music.

    These rhythms seem like a natural portal into this state of being.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-18-2019 at 07:46 AM.

  40. #39

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    I suppose Red Garland has a lot Opanije going on sometimes:





    But then I always though Paul Chambers would have made a good Sousa player for a marching band lol

    When it switches to 4/4 we get that move to Bravum and the pushes end up being on any or all the beats.

  41. #40
    good catch there, christian
    garner is being subltile but some of that phrasing sure is the opanije, and a lot of bravum bell

    yeah that two beat thing the bass does on heads seems to go back to that ompa om pa thing from before and that walking bass really fits with bravum big time

    jazz had this thing where it was broken up and then went unbroken...almost like funk and rhythm and blues into disco , where they didnt the groove on differant sections, for sure that was a change in groove concept in popular music

    yes, i agree , these rhythms, are a portal to the sub concious, the intuition the inner universe , surely as big as the physical universe

    this human thing and our search is phenominal . these ancient africans sure are due a part in these discoveries ..to come up with these concepts to turn off the thinking brain is an intellectual choice

  42. #41

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    I don’t know if it adds to the conversation, but Mike Longo talks about very similar concepts, from the African roots, “polymetricity”, “polyhemiola”, “ontological” music happening from the rhythm, the problem of Western centric pedagogy having failed to teach the most essential parts of Jazz, etc.

    I know Cristian has taken Mike’s course, but maybe the OP would be interesting in checking it out?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I don’t know if it adds to the conversation, but Mike Longo talks about very similar concepts, from the African roots, “polymetricity”, “polyhemiola”, “ontological” music happening from the rhythm, the problem of Western centric pedagogy having failed to teach the most essential parts of Jazz, etc.

    I know Cristian has taken Mike’s course, but maybe the OP would be interesting in checking it out?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I haven’t done any of mikes exercises for a while, but I feel if I go back with the other info I’ve explored, it will deepen them.