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  1. #51

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    I tried this again, just that second chorus. I've upped the tempo to about 160 and tried to give a bit more swing and phrasing. I do think there is a solo in here somewhere!

    The concept here was to take the opening melodic phrase and ride it up through the Dm7b5-G7, then try to permute it through each chord change moving to the nearest chord-tone to preserve the movement. For the second 16 bars I thought about inverting the melodic phrase making the general movement downward.

    This began as a drill where I played the melody and on each melody note I'd stop and see if I could play the arpeggio of the related chord. That turned out to be a fun exercise because it moved me away from starting on the root.

    Anyhow, here's that second chorus a little faster, a little more swing, still a drill, though, not quite a solo.

    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

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  3. #52

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    I think you're sounding pretty good Lawson...maybe it's a bit stiff, but I think that's just because you're in exercise mode still, itll swing more in time as you get more comfortable.

    I wanted to keep the conversation going, so heres 2 choruses. I go fishing a bit, but this was a great exercise for me because I haven't played the tune much, and I dont have the chords memorized...but I can definitely sing the melody...so I'm just going off that.

    There's so many directions you can go with this...and even though I might not take a whole solo like this, it's a great backbone.

    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I think you're sounding pretty good Lawson...maybe it's a bit stiff, but I think that's just because you're in exercise mode still, itll swing more in time as you get more comfortable.

    I wanted to keep the conversation going, so heres 2 choruses. I go fishing a bit, but this was a great exercise for me because I haven't played the tune much, and I dont have the chords memorized...but I can definitely sing the melody...so I'm just going off that.

    There's so many directions you can go with this...and even though I might not take a whole solo like this, it's a great backbone.
    Ah Jeff, your playing always puts a grin on my face. There ought to be some kind of regulation to keep you from having so much fun!

    What I realize I'm lacking is basically vocabulary. I've learned lots of solo material, but I'm slow in pulling the phrases out of those and using them elsewhere. You seem to have lots of great jazz vocabulary that comes out pretty spontaneously, which is a great goal for us to strive for.

    Thanks for jumping in!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I tried this again, just that second chorus. I've upped the tempo to about 160 and tried to give a bit more swing and phrasing. I do think there is a solo in here somewhere!

    The concept here was to take the opening melodic phrase and ride it up through the Dm7b5-G7, then try to permute it through each chord change moving to the nearest chord-tone to preserve the movement. For the second 16 bars I thought about inverting the melodic phrase making the general movement downward.

    This began as a drill where I played the melody and on each melody note I'd stop and see if I could play the arpeggio of the related chord. That turned out to be a fun exercise because it moved me away from starting on the root.

    Anyhow, here's that second chorus a little faster, a little more swing, still a drill, though, not quite a solo.
    This sounds good to me, the key thing is it’s MELODIC. Honestly, if you just tightened up the time a fraction and got it right ‘in the pocket’, it would be a great starting chorus of a solo. Keep doing this!

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    This sounds good to me, the key thing is it’s MELODIC. Honestly, if you just tightened up the time a fraction and got it right ‘in the pocket’, it would be a great starting chorus of a solo. Keep doing this!
    Thank you so much for that Graham. I admire your playing and your perspective on the music a great deal and appreciate your words. I have been having a lot of fun trying to tighten this up and put a little fire into it. I have another "drill" of sorts that I'm thinking might work for a solo concept. I also think I want to notate these just for the exercise of it.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    That turned out to be a fun exercise
    Excellent. The fun comes through, Lawson!

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Excellent. The fun comes through, Lawson!
    Well I can't help but observe how much fun you have spinning out the various takes on these tunes that you do. I need to be more free about just trying out ideas.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    There will never be another solo this noodly
    Did I say anything?

    Is that a mandolin on the couch back there?

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Well I can't help but observe how much fun you have spinning out the various takes on these tunes that you do. I need to be more free about just trying out ideas.
    Ah, it comes out of already doing it far too many times. When it's that stale you stop caring... and, bingo, you get fun :-)

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Did I say anything?

    Is that a mandolin on the couch back there?
    Good eyes to spot that shape, but that's the headstock of my little Recording King size 0 guitar. Super cheap fun lil instrument.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  12. #61

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    Size nothing... yet it exists...

    It would be strange except that they also do a size 000

    scary

  13. #62

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    Guys, I apologize for including a file on the thread. I recorded an example, but didn't want to go the Youtube route. Dang Sound cloud wants me to pay $80 to upload one more file... Hog wash!

    Anyway, I've been packing everything to prepare for my move outta LA (Escape from LA!) and I packed away my mic and my amp. So I thought, why not just try at it on piana?

    I really like this thread. Why not go one step further. Use the melody as a theme and move it around the harmony. Use the melodic rhythm as a theme and move it around the tune. Granted, this is only an example applied to the first A. However, the results are incredibly interesting. I found that I wasn't playing my age old licks and general bs. I was thinking more composition-ally. I think Jim Hall thought along these lines when he was soloing.

    If you sit with a melody long enough, and let it seep into your soul, interesting melodic material emerges. This ties back to what I was saying about the truth that many of us don't spend enough time getting to know the melody. I, for one, am way too excitable and will jump into learning how to improvise line through the harmony. However, the melody is the glue that holds the tune together.

    Scratch that, the melody is the tune--especially for jazz standards. Once I get to Seattle, I'll record more of this idea on guitar. I just wanted to get a recording in while the thread was hot
    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #63

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    Great thread. I've been looking for something new to learn, and I've also heard this whole "learn the melody and use it to improvise" many (many) times.

  15. #64

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    Quite by accident, I found this clip today from 10 years ago playing over TWNBAY. As I mentioned in another thread, I was spending most of time teaching at a few locations, finishing a master's degree and looking after my kids back then so practise time was limited and there are definitely some ropey passages!


  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    Great thread. I've been looking for something new to learn, and I've also heard this whole "learn the melody and use it to improvise" many (many) times.
    That old cliche is exactly what prompted this thread, so you've come to the right place!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    ...
    I really like this thread. Why not go one step further. Use the melody as a theme and move it around the harmony. Use the melodic rhythm as a theme and move it around the tune. Granted, this is only an example applied to the first A. However, the results are incredibly interesting. I found that I wasn't playing my age old licks and general bs. I was thinking more composition-ally. I think Jim Hall thought along these lines when he was soloing.

    ...
    That's pretty much what I was trying to do in the chorus above. I was taking the phrasing of the first line and seeing if I could shift it around and keep the idea more or less there over the changing harmony. Eventually of course the wheels came off but I still kept finding melodic fragments I liked, and tried to land on an original melody note here and there.

    I look forward to listening to your clip later today. Headed out to Easter Services this AM.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Quite by accident, I found this clip today from 10 years ago playing over TWNBAY. As I mentioned in another thread, I was spending most of time teaching at a few locations, finishing a master's degree and looking after my kids back then so practise time was limited and there are definitely some ropey passages!
    Totally excellent, that's exactly the way to do it!

    So where are we ten years later? Own up :-)

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Quite by accident, I found this clip today from 10 years ago playing over TWNBAY. As I mentioned in another thread, I was spending most of time teaching at a few locations, finishing a master's degree and looking after my kids back then so practise time was limited and there are definitely some ropey passages!

    That is really fine! I enjoyed that solo and kept hearing pieces of the tune in and out though it all. Lots of great jazz vocabulary in there too, and it really swings. Great tone.

    Thanks for sharing!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Totally excellent, that's exactly the way to do it!

    So where are we ten years later? Own up :-)
    Thanks rag. Playing out lots more these days and recording a quartet album soon of originals and standards with my organ trio and tenor sax. Here's a fun live clip from last month at my local bar - the trio with a good friend sitting in on vocals (usual caveats about the unbalanced sound as the zoom camera that captured the audio was set up near my guitar):

    Last edited by PMB; 04-21-2019 at 04:53 PM.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    That is really fine! I enjoyed that solo and kept hearing pieces of the tune in and out though it all. Lots of great jazz vocabulary in there too, and it really swings. Great tone.

    Thanks for sharing!
    Thanks for watching! I'm looking forward to hearing where you end up on the tune, Lawson. It's an important topic and a great idea for a thread.

  22. #71

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    PMB -

    Great. Nicely played.

  23. #72

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    Ok, rainy day today, so I spent some of the afternoon learning this song a bit and put down a couple choruses. It's my first time playing this song, so I made an effort not to listen to anyone else (besides Nat King Cole to get a feel for how it's supposed to sound) to get a "baseline" on my take. And then I'll listen to others on here and see how much I can progress after listening and learning more of the song and it's structure.


  24. #73

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    Lots of really musical interpretations of TWNBAY.

    I just signed up with Reverb Nation, hopefully they will give me more recording space.

    Here's the clip I uploaded before, but it's streaming now (so no downloading anxiety)

    Everything but my guitar, laptop, and bare necessities are packed. I'll post something more substantial in two weeks when I've moved. I have to say, using the melody as a springboard for inspiration is quite challenging. I have to really pull back from all my usual melodic habits (and rambling) and really focus on the shape, rhythm, and weight of the melody.

    To that end, this melody-centric work is hard, but I think it's really rewarding in the long run. I already hear some exciting melodic developments in Lawson-Stone's last video. Let's keep this thread going to challenge each other and see where we all end up.

    Oh, here's the link to my reverb nation page. It's short, but it outlines the bones what's possible when you manipulate the melody:

    Alex Link | ReverbNation

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    Hey, Lawson,

    Well, I spent a good part of an enjoyable afternoon playing takes of this and ended up deciding to use the first one. There's something a bit perverse about "trying to improvise" to demonstrate an idea, because the intellect gets in the way of what's supposed to be a mostly intuitive process. So it is what it is. The backing is Aebersold's Another Yew from volume 15. I'll attempt to explain a little bit of the process.

    First of all I do think it's a really good idea and not a question of "moral authority" to know melodies to tunes cold. I hear a lot of otherwise good jazz players, students mostly, who BS their way through the heads to tunes and it immediately screams "unprepared" to me.

    Second, I find that when I know the head very well to a tune it becomes much easier to improvise on it in general, but especially when using said melody as a springboard. Melodies tend to have fairly obvious starting and stopping places, and I find I can go away and come back easier when I know those places well.

    Third, just a few ideas about how to use the melody. Some are pretty obvious, like syncopating it or playing a phrase when the written melody rests. Others are somewhat less so, for example starting the melody on a different note and following the intervallic shape and rhythm of the original melody. Another idea would be to take a piece of the original melody and sequence it through the scale or scales of the changes. I ended up doing some of that in this version.

    Last, what can be really fun and interesting is to take a line that is from one section and play it in a different section of the tune, adjusting for the harmony of course. For example, TWNBAY is basically one lick, one variation, a second lick and two variations, then it starts over and the last part is different from all the others (There will never ever be another you). So you could, for example, take that last lick and start it at the beginning of the form, then play it again on another starting note such as Ab to D for the Dm7b5 to G7 part.

    http://claymoore.com/yew.wav
    That's a great take! And your thoughts here are very helpful to me. Honestly I have played this several times just because I enjoy listening to it. I feel like I have been at this so very long, and still somehow don't have the fluency and feel that makes it "sound like jazz." I feel like I just play guide tones and blues licks. Which I suppose one can even do worse than that, but I've honestly wondered if I should just give it up. After 30 years of working at it--going all the way back to the rmmgj newsgroup as you recall, it still feels out of reach.

    But these thoughts have me thinking of things I can try, so I'm pumped up for another week or so!

    Thanks for being on here and sharing your playing, Clay. It means a lot to have someone on the forum going back that far. I still love that Standards CD!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    Hey, Lawson,

    Well, I spent a good part of an enjoyable afternoon playing takes of this and ended up deciding to use the first one. There's something a bit perverse about "trying to improvise" to demonstrate an idea, because the intellect gets in the way of what's supposed to be a mostly intuitive process. So it is what it is. The backing is Aebersold's Another Yew from volume 15. I'll attempt to explain a little bit of the process.

    First of all I do think it's a really good idea and not a question of "moral authority" to know melodies to tunes cold. I hear a lot of otherwise good jazz players, students mostly, who BS their way through the heads to tunes and it immediately screams "unprepared" to me.

    Second, I find that when I know the head very well to a tune it becomes much easier to improvise on it in general, but especially when using said melody as a springboard. Melodies tend to have fairly obvious starting and stopping places, and I find I can go away and come back easier when I know those places well.

    Third, just a few ideas about how to use the melody. Some are pretty obvious, like syncopating it or playing a phrase when the written melody rests. Others are somewhat less so, for example starting the melody on a different note and following the intervallic shape and rhythm of the original melody. Another idea would be to take a piece of the original melody and sequence it through the scale or scales of the changes. I ended up doing some of that in this version.

    Last, what can be really fun and interesting is to take a line that is from one section and play it in a different section of the tune, adjusting for the harmony of course. For example, TWNBAY is basically one lick, one variation, a second lick and two variations, then it starts over and the last part is different from all the others (There will never ever be another you). So you could, for example, take that last lick and start it at the beginning of the form, then play it again on another starting note such as Ab to D for the Dm7b5 to G7 part.

    http://claymoore.com/yew.wav
    Wow! Very nice playing! Thank you for sharing!

  27. #76

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    My 2nd take. I sped it up a little from the "balladish" tempo to 120bpm as I felt a little more confident. My first was simply after learning the melody and noticing it centered around Eb. This time I took time to learn the chords and try to follow them a little closer. Still not overly happy with it, but I did feel like I improved a little, however slightly. Certainly open to ideas and criticism.

    Oh and btw- I listened to everyone else's...I do remember the OP saying "no pro's"! (but seriously, I need to go back and listen again and try to glean a little).



  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    My 2nd take. I sped it up a little from the "balladish" tempo to 120bpm as I felt a little more confident. My first was simply after learning the melody and noticing it centered around Eb. This time I took time to learn the chords and try to follow them a little closer. Still not overly happy with it, but I did feel like I improved a little, however slightly. Certainly open to ideas and criticism.

    Oh and btw- I listened to everyone else's...I do remember the OP saying "no pro's"! (but seriously, I need to go back and listen again and try to glean a little).


    thanks for posting. You make use of the notes and phrasing of the melody but do some really fun stuff with it. I am stuck right now with a handful of ideas and trying to bust out. This was helpful to me.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    Thank you Lawson and hohoho for the compliments. Yes, it's very cool, Lawson, that you and I and some of the others like Jack Zucker, Paul Kirk, and Paul Sanwald are still onboard, twenty-plus years later.

    Here's another take on TWNBAY. Basically this has kind of consumed my week, getting back into recording my blowing and critiquing it. I don't really have anything new to discuss as I wasn't trying as hard to "play off the melody" this time, although some of it occurs. BIAB backing this time, bossa nova feel at 185. BTW, isn't it time we thought about retiring the term "bossa nova" (new thing) since The Girl From Ipanema came out in 1963?

    http://claymoore.com/anotheryoupollwinners7.wav
    Bossa Ova, Bossa Neva? Either way, a nice rendition, Clay.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I am stuck right now with a handful of ideas and trying to bust out.
    I am as well. It seems as I play around, I have some ideas that I think might sound good. But when it comes time to play them, they either don't sound good, or I can't get them to come out properly and I retreat to my sing-song playing that I'm never happy with.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    Here's another take on TWNBAY.
    I think this is a great example of what the OP was talking about. Taking the melody and starting with a little embellishment and over each chorus taking it further and further. Very nice, had some parts that reminded me of Herb Ellis in there.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I am as well. It seems as I play around, I have some ideas that I think might sound good. But when it comes time to play them, they either don't sound good, or I can't get them to come out properly and I retreat to my sing-song playing that I'm never happy with.
    For what it's worth, I think you have some nice ideas in your clip, more good ones that otherwise. I am realizing I need to master more jazz vocabulary. I know a lot of theory, but somehow I don't get the jazz phrasing. Mine (to me) sounds very "white bread." I've been learning a lot of bop solos and such, but so far haven't been able to transfer much to my other playing. I can play the heck out of the solos I've learned, though!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    The concept here was to take the opening melodic phrase and ride it up through the Dm7b5-G7, then try to permute it through each chord change moving to the nearest chord-tone to preserve the movement. For the second 16 bars I thought about inverting the melodic phrase making the general movement downward.

    This began as a drill where I played the melody and on each melody note I'd stop and see if I could play the arpeggio of the related chord. That turned out to be a fun exercise because it moved me away from starting on the root.
    I tried this a little tonight...didn't have alot of time, but I like the ideas. The other thing I worked briefly on was playing the melody one way (ie, up) and then the next line down. A simple idea, but a decent way to get a little mileage out of a line.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    For what it's worth, I think you have some nice ideas in your clip, more good ones that otherwise. I am realizing I need to master more jazz vocabulary. I know a lot of theory, but somehow I don't get the jazz phrasing. Mine (to me) sounds very "white bread." I've been learning a lot of bop solos and such, but so far haven't been able to transfer much to my other playing. I can play the heck out of the solos I've learned, though!
    I can play the heck out of the solo's I learned too! I can hear that you do know theory, and what you play on the video on the top of page 2 here I liked. But your phrasing is a little "stilted" maybe. Someone else said it also...if you were to smooth that out so it flows better, it would sound much improved. I also liked the little chromatic thing down the neck at the end. There's a video by Frank Vignola on YT (you can google it I do suspect) for this tune which I thought was interesting, and he mentions how the song has a nice chromatic line to it if you can hear it.

  34. #83

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    Surprised no one has mentioned the "half-note melody", one the the simplest and most immediately effective ways to let the melody be your guide.

    It deconstructs the melody line into just two notes per bar. This is capturing the two notes of the melody within that bar that most express the direction, movement, and feel. This is actually easy to hear because they are the natural main notes of the phrasing.



    Here it looks like the half-note melody for the first line might be Bb | D F | G Bb | F F | F F which might look a little simple, but it's the frame to which the syncopation, interpretation, side-slips, slurs, enclosures, ornaments, and other improvisation vocabulary make reference.

    Try going through a section of the melody and converting it to half-note melody (you'll find it is easy to do).
    Sing or play the half-note melody with the song and notice how many good ideas pop up wanting to be heard.
    Listen to recorded solos and see if you can notice the half-note melody frame within the soloing.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  35. #84

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    I think one can over-analyse things. Best thing to do is just play it.

    It seems as I play around, I have some ideas that I think might sound good. But when it comes time to play them, they either don't sound good, or I can't get them to come out properly
    That's one of the dangers of playing. It's a sort of play-by-rote variation, trying to make the actual performance conform to a preconceived idea. It rarely works.

    One way to get out the rut is to vary the style. Here's a clip. I'm not sure what the style is exactly, perhaps a bit acoustic, but it's not the same as before. There are more phrases as opposed to long lines and I think the only altered notes are over dominants. It's NOT an embellishment of the melody. Fed up with that now!

    The tune's faded in and out to spare us interminable repetition.


  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Surprised no one has mentioned the "half-note melody", one the the simplest and most immediately effective ways to let the melody be your guide.
    While not specifically mentioned, Tal_175's link to a video (on page one) talks about it during the video. I skimmed it, and it seems to basically break down the melody to the half notes, and then using chromatics and guide tones to fill in the "gaps". I'll have to go back and watch it more, but it's a little wordy, has people singing notes (it's a music class I gather), etc. One of those videos that's like 1 min actual content for every 5 mins video.

  37. #86

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    Here's my go at using the melody. As I said before I don't have any 'system', I just try to retain some patterns or references to it and see what happens!


  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Here's my go at using the melody. As I said before I don't have any 'system', I just try to retain some patterns or references to it and see what happens!

    That's wonderful! Your tone is just why God made ES175's. The fluency with bop ideas, your pushing the boundaries of the choruses so they blend, which reminds me of Jimmy Raney, it's all great to listen to.

    thanks for posting that. It has inspired me!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  39. #88

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    Thanks very much Lawson! Actually it was good to do this ‘melody’ approach, so thanks for the thread, I think it made me play some different ideas than usual. Definitely something to keep working on.

    Incidentally this is the first time I’ve recorded with the DV Mark Little Jazz, I’m very happy with the results.

    Funny you should mention Jimmy Raney, right after doing this I wondered if he’d recorded this tune, and I found his version from the early 50s in my CD collection. Now that really is a wonderful solo, I think I’ll transcribe it!

  40. #89

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    This is the Jimmy Raney version, listening to it again I can hear quite a few echoes of the melody in his solo.


  41. #90

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    Like I said before, we should do this for every standard of the month. There's so many possibilities to using a melody and at the end of the day, you will sound like you are playing a standard and not just a slew of changes. Every pro player that I've studied with has said, "learn the dang dong melody!"

    Look at what you started Lawson-Stone!

    I just got to Washington state, but the movers aren't here yet (I packed my amp and drove up my gitter)

    Once I get my amp and internet (at a hotel at the moment) I'll try my hand at it--all these posts are ridiculously good.

    Graham, I got both collections of Raney Visits Paris a year ago--I have to listen to that cut of "Another You" again! Really good!

    Here, here to an awesome thread!

  42. #91

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    We are awesome, so true, so true

  43. #92

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    I like this Peter Bernstein video, he gets into the rationale for using the melody and gives some specific examples (the tune is Nobody Else But Me).


  44. #93

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    Since this thread kicked off me learning this song: this is my effort after all this time later. Had more fun than I thought I would and learned to really appreciate the tune.


  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    Thank you Lawson and hohoho for the compliments. Yes, it's very cool, Lawson, that you and I and some of the others like Jack Zucker, Paul Kirk, and Paul Sanwald are still onboard, twenty-plus years later.

    Here's another take on TWNBAY. Basically this has kind of consumed my week, getting back into recording my blowing and critiquing it. I don't really have anything new to discuss as I wasn't trying as hard to "play off the melody" this time, although some of it occurs. BIAB backing this time, bossa nova feel at 185. BTW, isn't it time we thought about retiring the term "bossa nova" (new thing) since The Girl From Ipanema came out in 1963?

    http://claymoore.com/anotheryoupollwinners7.wav
    I got to this late but wow, what a fun take. You seem to have such a vast collection of musical ideas and the technique to express them. This is really inspiring!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    Since this thread kicked off me learning this song: this is my effort after all this time later. Had more fun than I thought I would and learned to really appreciate the tune.

    This is nice. You have the whole tune put together and ready to perform. Gig-worthy stuff. I'm so glad you decided to invest in this thread!

    I hope to get things a bit more together and put up something this week.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  47. #96

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    Not a direct response to the OP, but some thoughts related to the subject.

    As far as listening to the Masters, I think it depends on who. Charlie Parker played a lot of notes, very fast. You may not be ready for that. But, Paul Desmond, Hank Mobley, Chet Baker, why not them?

    There's no one way to play jazz. I have been energetically criticized at a jam by a guy who couldn't stand any interpretation of the melody. His idea was that it was disrespectful to the composer. Most people aren't that rigid about it. I have a composer's chart for a tune and the composer's recording -- and he didn't play what he wrote!

    For a standard, I like to learn the melody by singing the lyric. But, I can remember a good melody without a lyric too. The lyric can help you get into the composer's mood, but there's no law that says you have to play the tune in that mood.

    If you invent a time machine and go to 52nd street in 1946 and get to sit in with Bird and Diz, and they call Donna Lee, they probably don't want to hear your solo be the melody to Back Home in Indiana with a little bit of embellishment. But, back in modern times at a restaurant gig, the audience might appreciate it being able to recognize the tune. OTOH, if your band is good enough to be creating great new music to the chord changes of a tune, the audience will probably be happy.

    I believe an important skill is to be able to play any melody you know, starting on any random note -- meaning play it in any key, starting anywhere on the neck with any finger. That's one of the two fundamental skills in jazz -- the ability to play a melody that's in your head. The other is to be able to think of a good melody.

    And speaking of that, if you can't scat sing an elaboration of a melody, the thing to work on has nothing to do with guitar technique.

    And, if you can scat sing an elaboration of a melody then all you need to do is figure out how to play it.

    As far as elaborating a melody, I can do it, and often resort to it when I can't remember the melody correctly. But, I have no recollection of ever working on it and no recollection of learning how to do it.

    In Another You, there are a lot of notes in bars 1 and 2, but, in bars 3 and 4, there isn't much. Start by filling in the empty bars with a cool sounding line.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Not a direct response to the OP, but some thoughts related to the subject.

    As far as listening to the Masters, I think it depends on who. Charlie Parker played a lot of notes, very fast. You may not be ready for that. But, Paul Desmond, Hank Mobley, Chet Baker, why not them?

    There's no one way to play jazz. I have been energetically criticized at a jam by a guy who couldn't stand any interpretation of the melody. His idea was that it was disrespectful to the composer. Most people aren't that rigid about it. I have a composer's chart for a tune and the composer's recording -- and he didn't play what he wrote!

    For a standard, I like to learn the melody by singing the lyric. But, I can remember a good melody without a lyric too. The lyric can help you get into the composer's mood, but there's no law that says you have to play the tune in that mood.

    If you invent a time machine and go to 52nd street in 1946 and get to sit in with Bird and Diz, and they call Donna Lee, they probably don't want to hear your solo be the melody to Back Home in Indiana with a little bit of embellishment. But, back in modern times at a restaurant gig, the audience might appreciate it being able to recognize the tune. OTOH, if your band is good enough to be creating great new music to the chord changes of a tune, the audience will probably be happy.

    I believe an important skill is to be able to play any melody you know, starting on any random note -- meaning play it in any key, starting anywhere on the neck with any finger. That's one of the two fundamental skills in jazz -- the ability to play a melody that's in your head. The other is to be able to think of a good melody.

    And speaking of that, if you can't scat sing an elaboration of a melody, the thing to work on has nothing to do with guitar technique.

    And, if you can scat sing an elaboration of a melody then all you need to do is figure out how to play it.

    As far as elaborating a melody, I can do it, and often resort to it when I can't remember the melody correctly. But, I have no recollection of ever working on it and no recollection of learning how to do it.

    In Another You, there are a lot of notes in bars 1 and 2, but, in bars 3 and 4, there isn't much. Start by filling in the empty bars with a cool sounding line.
    I wasn't saying not to listen to the masters. I was asking us to focus on our own playing. I see threads where someone wants to play something, and gets bombed with YouTube links. I can find those for myself, as most of us can. I want to hear what we are doing here, what ideas we have, what lines we can think of. Sure, we should listen to the great ones, and I do, all day long as i sit at my desk. But for the purposes of the thread, I just asked us to focus on playing, not scouring YouTube for links to videos, which I think can be a distraction from actually PLAYING.

    Thanks also for fruitful observations on the tune and your ideas!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Not a direct response to the OP, but some thoughts related to the subject.

    As far as listening to the Masters, I think it depends on who. Charlie Parker played a lot of notes, very fast. You may not be ready for that. But, Paul Desmond, Hank Mobley, Chet Baker, why not them?

    There's no one way to play jazz. I have been energetically criticized at a jam by a guy who couldn't stand any interpretation of the melody. His idea was that it was disrespectful to the composer. Most people aren't that rigid about it. I have a composer's chart for a tune and the composer's recording -- and he didn't play what he wrote!

    For a standard, I like to learn the melody by singing the lyric. But, I can remember a good melody without a lyric too. The lyric can help you get into the composer's mood, but there's no law that says you have to play the tune in that mood.

    If you invent a time machine and go to 52nd street in 1946 and get to sit in with Bird and Diz, and they call Donna Lee, they probably don't want to hear your solo be the melody to Back Home in Indiana with a little bit of embellishment. But, back in modern times at a restaurant gig, the audience might appreciate it being able to recognize the tune. OTOH, if your band is good enough to be creating great new music to the chord changes of a tune, the audience will probably be happy.

    I believe an important skill is to be able to play any melody you know, starting on any random note -- meaning play it in any key, starting anywhere on the neck with any finger. That's one of the two fundamental skills in jazz -- the ability to play a melody that's in your head. The other is to be able to think of a good melody.

    And speaking of that, if you can't scat sing an elaboration of a melody, the thing to work on has nothing to do with guitar technique.

    And, if you can scat sing an elaboration of a melody then all you need to do is figure out how to play it.

    As far as elaborating a melody, I can do it, and often resort to it when I can't remember the melody correctly. But, I have no recollection of ever working on it and no recollection of learning how to do it.

    In Another You, there are a lot of notes in bars 1 and 2, but, in bars 3 and 4, there isn't much. Start by filling in the empty bars with a cool sounding line.
    Hey on that scat-singing. You know, I can hear a scat of TWNBAY in my head all day long, hum it in the shower, but somehow the notes all flatten out and i can't actually define the pitches. If you recorded it, it would just sound like "dum dee dum-dum, doo-dum..." but no altered tones, etc. Do you actually scat sing those notes at the correct pitches? Can you (in theory) transcribe your scat singing and make a guitar solo out of it? I've tried, but other than a general rhythmic shape, I don't get very far.

    If you are so inclined, could you take to us/me about that? that whole "sing what you play" thing is right up there with "start with the melody" in the lore of improvising, and I think I need to pay more attention to that.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  50. #99

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    Hey Bahnzo, that's some improvement! A million miles away from when you first started :-)

  51. #100

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    Ok. Here's my take an Another You. I made a point of trying to keep hinting at the melody through most of it.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 05-24-2019 at 09:37 PM.