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  1. #51

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    Here is Dexter Gordon sounding like a horn-player and Philip Catherine sounding like a guitar-player. I.e. each pulls out a sound unique to their instruments (with Philip using electronics).


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  3. #52

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    I think it has a lot to do with how you articulate a note.

    The horn player can play staccato or legato. He can swell a note, vibrate it, bend it, change volume as it sustains. With circular breathing he can hold it indefinitely. Just about any way a note can speak. All kinds of nuance.

    So, to me, horn-like is when the guitarist finds ways to do those things. Non horn-like is a style where the notes are played straight without this kind of articulation. Of course, horns can do things that are horn-like per my definition, so the definitions aren't precise.

    But, I think that's the basic idea. I think CC was considered horn-like because he played single lines with some sustain (from that amp being cranked a bit). As the guitar technology developed, more articulation became progressively easier.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I agree, I think its about phrasing, and like a trumpet.

    I think that the guitar is better suited to trumpet style phrasing than sax. (Unless you're Alan Holdsworth, but how many Alan Holdsworth's are there?).
    Well Allan is out of Trane. I would say Kurt too. Parker is if anything even harder to imitate on guitar - you can get some of it, but not all of it...

    But there are other sax players that do translate well - Dexter Gordon for instance. And Lester gave us much of the stuff on guitar that everyone takes for granted either direct or through the lens of Charlie Christian.

    But maybe - I have heard trumpeters say the guitar lines translate well (and vice versa from those who play both) which I think is interesting.

    To be absolutely honest I've not transcribed as many trumpeters as sax players which is a shame, because I do like good trumpet.

    But interestingly - I think excepting possibly Metheny who started on trumpet, I've not heard to many guitarists say they have been influenced by trumpet though. Usually it's sax if it's a horn. Maybe you know some examples?

    I saw a noted player last night who does NOT "take a breath" very often. That approach to soloing can/did result in listener fatigue, at times. It can be a bit like listening to a motor mouth who won't shut up. At times.
    In general I agree, but I think this can work if there is a sense of ebb and flow and dynamics within the continuous line.

    I was listening to Clifford Brown today, and noticed the sheer amount of dynamics in his 8th lines, which mean they don't like over playing even on a ballad like April in Paris. Most guitarists around today don't use dynamics and tend to play strings of 8th notes.

    That said, Pat Martino for one manages to make it work, because while he is super even, his timing and the actual shape of his lines create a sense of space and rhythmic accent. Once I heard that, his playing became compelling to me. Although he leaves more gaps, I feel the same way about Mike Stern.

    Most players who do the endless 8th notes thing, do not.

    The trick is to know what resources you have and exploit them to the max.

  5. #54

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    sonny sharrock got his thing from albert ayler...and trane...his holy three along with bird...

    albert ayler would state an iconic sounding theme as a head...he was influenced by marching bands and anthems...and he'd then go off into his own world of improvisation..exactly what sonny sharrock did...he'd have massive sounding heads...and then take'm completely out

    his - ask the ages - recording is pure that!!



    great band!!

    Sonny Sharrock g...Pharoah Sanders ts,ss...Charnett Moffett b...Elvin Jones d

    cheers

  6. #55

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    Of course some people want to be guitar-like.

    Horn like-3e45b82d-f654-43e6-9db7-bd7a8bad72a6-jpg

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well Allan is out of Trane. I would say Kurt too. Parker is if anything even harder to imitate on guitar - you can get some of it, but not all of it...

    But there are other sax players that do translate well - Dexter Gordon for instance. And Lester gave us much of the stuff on guitar that everyone takes for granted either direct or through the lens of Charlie Christian.

    But maybe - I have heard trumpeters say the guitar lines translate well (and vice versa from those who play both) which I think is interesting.

    To be absolutely honest I've not transcribed as many trumpeters as sax players which is a shame, because I do like good trumpet.

    But interestingly - I think excepting possibly Metheny who started on trumpet, I've not heard to many guitarists say they have been influenced by trumpet though. Usually it's sax if it's a horn. Maybe you know some examples?



    In general I agree, but I think this can work if there is a sense of ebb and flow and dynamics within the continuous line.

    I was listening to Clifford Brown today, and noticed the sheer amount of dynamics in his 8th lines, which mean they don't like over playing even on a ballad like April in Paris. Most guitarists around today don't use dynamics and tend to play strings of 8th notes.

    That said, Pat Martino for one manages to make it work, because while he is super even, his timing and the actual shape of his lines create a sense of space and rhythmic accent. Once I heard that, his playing became compelling to me. Although he leaves more gaps, I feel the same way about Mike Stern.

    Most players who do the endless 8th notes thing, do not.

    The trick is to know what resources you have and exploit them to the max.

    I'll admit that I would probably transcribe a sax player over a trumpet player too, because there are so many giants.....

    oops,

    while typing this I just recalled transcribing a little Chet Baker and Freddie Hubbard and might do more of the same, lol.


    Regarding not taking a breath/inserting space, I also think that compositional form and harmonic rhythm have an influence. Meaning, some modal tunes are designed for extended, expansive blowing. The player I heard last night is more of a traditional player and plays more traditional tunes. Such tunes often have a certain phrase/section structure that comes from the song's head and vocal melody line, and as such don't always lend themselves to the.... unending motormouth style. Some pauses are expected and are refreshing, even if short, in contrast to the unending playing which can sound disconnected from the form at times.

  8. #57

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    Due to the difficulty of the instrument, trumpet players rarely play intervals larger than a 3rd, (unless written, of course) and part of Woody Shaw's uniqueness of style was due to his deliberate woodshedding to use larger intervals to sound more like a sax, Freddie Hubbard spoke about trying to phrase like a sax. It worked for them.

    To me, Jim Hall had horn sounding lines.

  9. #58

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    Sometimes, "horn-like" is just a lazy critics cliche. Similarly, for decades, many a new female jazz singer was described as "Ella-like" or "the new Ella," whether or not they had a strong similarity to Fitzgerald.

  10. #59

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    Ah, my pet peeve.

    I think that jazz guitarists have a huge inferiority complex. We're supposed to play chords like a piano, solo like a horn. Why the hell can't we sound like guitarists? If you want someone to sound like a horn, hire a horn player! I listen to Wes and he sounds like a guitarist- not a pianist, not a horn. A guitarist. And proud of it. Embracing the unique characteristics of the instrument was part of what made him great. We don't have the sustain of a horn nor the ability to play ten notes at a time like a piano.

    Jazz was in its inception a horn driven music- brass bands playing on the streets and in the saloons of New Orleans. The music still has that heritage. That's why, as mr. beaumont wrote above, the horn sounds natural in this setting. Some other styles of music such as flamenco, Piedmont style blues, rock, etc., mostly developed on the guitar which is why there are few heavy metal horn players and even fewer flamenco sax players. Although "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" could be a great big band tune.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    Although "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" could be a great big band tune.
    I'd like to hear that!

    I agree with what you say. Ironically---for me, anyway---as much as I liked the horn in jazz early on, I care little for it now. It's the same instrument, but technically dazzling horn solos that go on for ten minutes at blazing tempi irritate me now.

    Still love this, though.

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I'd like to hear that!
    Be careful what you wish for.


  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    Ah, my pet peeve.

    I think that jazz guitarists have a huge inferiority complex. We're supposed to play chords like a piano, solo like a horn. Why the hell can't we sound like guitarists? If you want someone to sound like a horn, hire a horn player! I listen to Wes and he sounds like a guitarist- not a pianist, not a horn. A guitarist. And proud of it. Embracing the unique characteristics of the instrument was part of what made him great. We don't have the sustain of a horn nor the ability to play ten notes at a time like a piano.
    Charlie Christian - what a plonker.

    Should have just played the guitar like a guitar and strummed chords.

    (Except of course the electric guitar was a NEW instrument with no tradition. He had to take cues from somewhere....)

    But yeah I hear you. It’s something that made me laugh when I first heard it from Julian Lage.

    But otoh copying other guitarists is not enough. All the best players have taken inspiration elsewhere while finding a guitaristic way of doing things.

    There’s a balance.

    I was fascinated when Robben Ford said Clapton wanted to sound like a Harmonica player because it’s like - oh yeah. Of course. That’s what the Gibson and the Marshall did because he wasn’t playing through a Fender was he? (At least not then)

    Ford himself wanted to sound like tenor sax. I think he got close while being very much a guitarist.

    So yeah I bring up bluesy players because they take the hornlike thing a notch further.

    OTOH your average guitarist wants to sound like Clapton, or Ford. Or Joe Pass or whatever.

    Jazz was in its inception a horn driven music- brass bands playing on the streets and in the saloons of New Orleans. The music still has that heritage. That's why, as mr. beaumont wrote above, the horn sounds natural in this setting. Some other styles of music such as flamenco, Piedmont style blues, rock, etc., mostly developed on the guitar which is why there are few heavy metal horn players and even fewer flamenco sax players. Although "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" could be a great big band tune.
    And that’s why it’s hard to learn because those other forms of music are based around the guitar.

    That said I think people who are unfamiliar with prewar jazz and the early history of bop etc over state this case.

    It might also be worth pointing out that electric guitar lead was pretty common in the 40s and 50s - the acoustic instrument had been in almost every band as a rhythm instrument in the 30s and 40s and guitar, not drums was the usual choice for the piano trio. Incidentally the electric guitar was super popular in the 40s, round the time jazz and R&B were going their separate ways. Lots of guitar on the early Parker sides for instance. Charlie C cast a long shadow.

    In the end the ubiquitous guitar of the swing era end up being dropped because of the new style of comping, guitarists being rhythm cats. We had to wait for Jim Hall to blaze that trail a decade later.

    Incidentally Jim sounds very much like a guitarist, not a pianist wannabe.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    So yeah I bring up bluesy players because they take the hornlike thing a notch further.
    I think so too. I think it has a lot to do with wanting to sound like a human voice. And being able to hold a note and let it swell.

    Little Walter was great at this. You can't get that with an acoustic guitar. (Or an archtop with flatwounds, for that matter.)


    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  15. #64

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    I've been blessed/cursed with playing both trumpet and guitar since I was a kid. They are very different instruments, but complementary. I think my soloing on either instrument is probably pretty similar, because my phrasing and harmonic concept is pretty much the same.

    People generally think of horns when they think of jazz, so I would take it as a compliment if someone said my guitar solo sounded like a horn. When I first got into jazz as a teenager, it was on guitar. My brother made an uninformed comment along the lines of, "what, no horns?". Up to that point i'd only played trumpet in school band, and wasn't very good at that. But I pursued it in earnest after that. Guitar, though, taught me rhythm and harmony.

    What makes a horn so compelling is, it's voice, there's a depth and personality that's unique. Hear one or two notes from Louis or Miles, and you know who it is.

  16. #65

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    Another way to think about it:

    If you listen to Joey DeFrancesco play organ you hear him nearly constantly modulate volume. Organists ride that pedal, and it sounds great, partly because the organ key generates a continuous tone which the volume pedal can modulate.

    Is there another instrument that does that?

    Well, maybe horns come closest -- because they can vary volume within a single note, any way they want, more or less.
    To me, that's the essence of horn-like. It's the ability to make a note speak, ring, swell, wobble, honk, squeal, sing, you name it.

    Piano is at the other extreme. Classical pianists do talk about the importance of touch, but it's a subtlety. You hit the note with a certain velocity. It starts to die right away. One pedal can extend it to a degree.

    Guitar is in between. A skilled player with a good command of the equipment can get a lot of expression. Even an archtop player can bend, shake, palm-mute, hammer, pull-off and gliss. With a vibrato bar, some FX and a volume pedal you can get quite a bit more. But you still don't hear guitars sound like Joey D. Closest I've heard was a skilled guitar synth player.

    In fact, I can imagine that, sooner or later, somebody is going to put all that together in a jazz context in a way we haven't heard before. Or maybe it's happened already and I missed it.

  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    I have to admit I have no idea what people exactly mean when they refer to a guitarist's style or sound as "horn like". For example sometimes people refer to Wes Montgomery's guitar playing as horn like. I'm not sure if I hear that.
    It's true that the defining tone and phrasing of jazz is shaped by early horn players, like Bird, Dizzy, Lester Young, Clifford Brown etc. This influence has infused in all jazz players. So it's possible that what I hear as just "jazz" is referred to as "horn like" I'm not sure. So:
    1- Does horn like refer to phrasing or is it more about the tone (attack, note duration etc.)?
    2- What are some examples of very horn like and very UN-horn like (guitar like?) guitar solos?
    3- Why do some guitarist think it's desirable to make your guitar sound like another instrument?

    I personally like jazz guitar sound at least as much as any other instrument used in jazz. I have not heard sax or piano players being praised to sound "guitar-like". In fact I rather listen to a guitar player than a "guitar-like" sax player (or a sax-like sax player for that matter).
    Why do we guitar players take it as a complement if we are told we sound horn-like?
    Horn-like I think, refers to legato, long fluid phrasing. At least, that is what I think about when I hear someone use that term.

    To sound like something else than the obvious can mean that it is original, innovative, etc, something that many artists value high