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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Okay, it's a start. But why different chords? Why not the ordinary chords for that tune?

    Your emphasis here is on improvising. What are you going to play over these chords? Does the MB book give you any ideas for lines or is it just chords?
    the mickey baker book starts with chords and at one he says to apply the chord idea to songs you are learning.

    in the second half he starts talking about soloing, I have been following the book systematically in order, maybe I should skip to the soloing half and work on a lesson from each section together

  2. #102
    Here are some common approaches to improvisation in the order of difficulty (IMO):

    1- Melody. Rhythmic variations. Embellishment of important notes.
    2- Harmonic generalization. Just thinking in the key of the moment instead of consciously making chord changes.
    3- Harmonic specify. Outlining the harmony in the solo. Using guide tones and other chord tones. Targeting them as chords change. Note this doesn't mean using only chord tones.
    4- Theme and variation. Starting with a clear theme/motif and developing it.

    There are of course also more advanced approaches but mastering these 4 and being able use all them in the course of a solo is a good place to aim initially. I've been working on these for years. I work on them over tunes, not in isolation. Mastery of the fretboard and having good time are the key skills. Strive to know where you are at ALL times (bar and beat) when playing tunes. Ear develops by exposure but singing and being mindful really accelerates ear training.
    I find that if you don't have the fretboard together, you're just spinning your wheels.

    Sent from my a$s

  3. #103
    I find that if you don't have the fretboard together, you're just spinning your wheels.
    That is true. But it comes.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81 View Post
    the mickey baker book starts with chords and at one he says to apply the chord idea to songs you are learning.

    in the second half he starts talking about soloing, I have been following the book systematically in order, maybe I should skip to the soloing half and work on a lesson from each section together
    that's what i recommend. Excellent book.
    White belt
    My Youtube

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Sent from my a$s
    wait, wut?
    White belt
    My Youtube

  6. #106
    also book 2 is way over looked, it is just as good
    White belt
    My Youtube

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    that's what i recommend. Excellent book.
    So you would reccomend going through a lesson from each of the sections at once?

  8. #108
    I've been thinking about this issue again.

    How to get better at improvising?

    Doesn't it depend on your level and what the weakness is?

    There are lots of ways to be, say, less improved, at improvising.

    In no particular order:

    You don't think of good enough lines.

    You don't have enough chops to execute ideas.

    You can't find the notes that go with the chords.

    You have no jazz vocabulary.

    Your time needs improvement.

    You don't know any tunes.

    You don't hear chord changes.

    You can't hear extensions or tensions against harmony.

    etc etc etc.

    For an intermediate or advanced player, the issue is one of diagnosis and then planning the intervention.

    For the novice player, the issue is how to go about introducing the entire craft of improvising.

    If I had to pick just a couple of things that are likely to be useful to almost anybody, I'd think about these.

    1. Ear Training. Maybe you can hear even the wildest harmony and immediately know what the chords are. Maybe you an immediately imitate the most jagged melody. Maybe you can identify one wrong note in a room full of sound -- know what note it was and what note it should have been. But, if you can't do all of that, then ear training isn't going to be a waste of time.

    2. Play as much as you possibly can with the best musicians you can possibly play with. I don't know exactly how it will happen, but you will find a way to get better.

    3. Find a balance. This often means making sure you don't focus excessively on abstract applications of theory. Make sure you're applying everything in a way that sounds good. And, even if you don't care about anything else, be absolutely certain that your time is perfect on every note you play.

  9. #109
    Join Date
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    Canada
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    To the OP, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to come up with the 'perfect' approach. Less posting, more practicing. Learn one tune per week and internalize it. Choose tunes that you like. Repeat weekly. Go.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny View Post
    To the OP, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to come up with the 'perfect' approach. Less posting, more practicing. Learn one tune per week and internalize it. Choose tunes that you like. Repeat weekly. Go.
    ultimately this is the truth, im going to end up just throwing myself into it in studying and learning songs

  11. #111
    Songs?

    Bingo!
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Songs?

    Bingo!
    lol im a noobie bear with me lol, nice youtube page btw! Great playing

  13. #113
    Thanks!

    And no worries...I just get pissy sometimes because there's so much bad information about learning jazz on the internet.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Thanks!

    And no worries...I just get pissy sometimes because there's so much bad information about learning jazz on the internet.
    Lots of information! But thanks for the time to contribute to my question, you have been very insightful!

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Thanks!

    ... there's so much bad information about learning jazz on the internet.
    LOL .... as opposed to, oh, say every other subject in the world?

    I agree, learning tunes is key. I wish I'd focused on that a whole lot more, years ago. Scales and chords and arpeggios are merely a conduit.
    Make America Groove Again

  16. #116
    I have been working more on the changes of Takin the A train and wrote some lines to fit over the changes, definitely eye opening when it comes to actually learning song as opposed to just focusing on the theory aspect of things.

  17. #117
    Sounds good. Just to be curious, what are you playing over the D7#11? (the tune's usually in C).

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Sounds good. Just to be curious, what are you playing over the D7#11? (the tune's usually in C).
    yup im playing it in C! I learned about the bebop scale and that it could be used over dominant chords, is that correct? So D bebop scale.

  19. #119
    But it's a D7#11 (also called D7b5). The G# makes it a completely different sound. It's also the melody note.

    If you use a D dominant bebop scale the 'extra' note is the C# between the D and the C, which means you've still got a natural G in there which is going to clash.

    Have another look at that. Google it if necessary. See what you find.

  20. #120
    (By the way, all is not lost. On the next D7 (after the F) the D dominant bebop sounds great. You're completely fine with that).

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81 View Post
    So you would reccomend going through a lesson from each of the sections at once?
    yeah
    White belt
    My Youtube

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81 View Post
    yup im playing it in C! I learned about the bebop scale and that it could be used over dominant chords, is that correct? So D bebop scale.
    Maybe this will help, maybe not.

    The chord is D7#11. So let's look at the individual notes that may work.

    First, D7 can be thought of as D13. That gives D F# A C E G and B.

    Now, we have to account for the #11, which makes it D F# A C E G# and B. (If you need a name for it it's D lydian dominant, which has the same notes as A mel min - but the idea is to think about the individual notes).

    That's 7 notes. There are only 5 left. Let's look at them one at a time.

    D# is the b9. Play 5x4544 and you'll hear the sound you get when you put a b9 into the D7#11. If you like it, you can use it. But, you probably can't use the natural 9 (E) or you'll get more dissonance than you might like.

    F is the #9. Same argument. b9 and #9 can usually be used together, but you may not like them with the natural 9.

    G is out, sort of, because you already raised it to a G#. But, in fact, it may work if you use it in the octave below where the #11 is sounding.

    Bb is the #5. Some players can make this note sound great, but you have to put it in a strong line. Since you already have the notes a half step up and a half step down, there's a potential for conflict.

    And, finally, C#. This is the maj7, which is hard to use well against a dominant chord. Very different sounds. Of course, there's an old thread here about Wes doing exactly that and sounding great.

    Which leads me to my last point. A great player can make any note sound good.

    My thinking, which may not be the best way to do it, is to focus on the individual notes. Even if you end up thinking about scales as geometric patterns or sounds, I think knowing the notes can help.

  23. #123
    DON'T TELL HIM LET HIM FIND OUT FOR GOD'S SAKE THAT'S HOW YOU LEARN STUFF

    'Let's do this, let's do that'. What do you think he is, a child?

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Maybe this will help, maybe not.

    The chord is D7#11. So let's look at the individual notes that may work.

    First, D7 can be thought of as D13. That gives D F# A C E G and B.

    Now, we have to account for the #11, which makes it D F# A C E G# and B. (If you need a name for it it's D lydian dominant, which has the same notes as A mel min - but the idea is to think about the individual notes).

    That's 7 notes. There are only 5 left. Let's look at them one at a time.

    D# is the b9. Play 5x4544 and you'll hear the sound you get when you put a b9 into the D7#11. If you like it, you can use it. But, you probably can't use the natural 9 (E) or you'll get more dissonance than you might like.

    F is the #9. Same argument. b9 and #9 can usually be used together, but you may not like them with the natural 9.

    G is out, sort of, because you already raised it to a G#. But, in fact, it may work if you use it in the octave below where the #11 is sounding.

    Bb is the #5. Some players can make this note sound great, but you have to put it in a strong line. Since you already have the notes a half step up and a half step down, there's a potential for conflict.

    And, finally, C#. This is the maj7, which is hard to use well against a dominant chord. Very different sounds. Of course, there's an old thread here about Wes doing exactly that and sounding great.

    Which leads me to my last point. A great player can make any note sound good.

    My thinking, which may not be the best way to do it, is to focus on the individual notes. Even if you end up thinking about scales as geometric patterns or sounds, I think knowing the notes can help.
    -but not a word of that is actually in the native language of the ear, which is purely phenomenological.

    My thinking is that learning to improvise is progressively learning to really hear:

    -learning to hear what you can't yet play
    -learning how to hear how to play it
    -learning to hear when you play it right and wrong
    -learning how to hear what you want to play
    -learning to play what you want to hear

    Improvisation is hearing, selecting what to play by how it sounds.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Maybe this will help, maybe not.

    The chord is D7#11. So let's look at the individual notes that may work.

    First, D7 can be thought of as D13. That gives D F# A C E G and B.

    Now, we have to account for the #11, which makes it D F# A C E G# and B. (If you need a name for it it's D lydian dominant, which has the same notes as A mel min - but the idea is to think about the individual notes).

    That's 7 notes. There are only 5 left. Let's look at them one at a time.

    D# is the b9. Play 5x4544 and you'll hear the sound you get when you put a b9 into the D7#11. If you like it, you can use it. But, you probably can't use the natural 9 (E) or you'll get more dissonance than you might like.

    F is the #9. Same argument. b9 and #9 can usually be used together, but you may not like them with the natural 9.

    G is out, sort of, because you already raised it to a G#. But, in fact, it may work if you use it in the octave below where the #11 is sounding.

    Bb is the #5. Some players can make this note sound great, but you have to put it in a strong line. Since you already have the notes a half step up and a half step down, there's a potential for conflict.

    And, finally, C#. This is the maj7, which is hard to use well against a dominant chord. Very different sounds. Of course, there's an old thread here about Wes doing exactly that and sounding great.

    Which leads me to my last point. A great player can make any note sound good.

    My thinking, which may not be the best way to do it, is to focus on the individual notes. Even if you end up thinking about scales as geometric patterns or sounds, I think knowing the notes can help.
    Looking at the notes of each chord sounds like a good way to figure out which notes to use over those more altered chords?

  26. #126
    (sighs)

    Not really. You could play a simple unaltered D7 triad (just root, 3rd and 7th - D F#C) and see what various notes sound like over it, like the 9 (E), 11 (G) and 13 (B). That would give you a feel for the diatonic ones.

    Then you could do all the altered sounds, like the b5/#11 (G#/Ab), #5 (A#/Bb), b9 (Eb) and #9 (F). It might be instructive to the ear.



    But it wouldn't really tell you what to play over a certain chord in a tune per se. Nor would it tell you how to play them. It's far quicker to know straight away what a certain chord demands. Like D7#11 would sound best with...

    But you were going to look that out for yourself, I believe :-)

    (I just googled it. It took 0.45 secs to find the answer - right at the top of the page)

  27. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    (sighs)

    Not really. You could play a simple unaltered D7 triad (just root, 3rd and 7th - D F#C) and see what various notes sound like over it, like the 9 (E), 11 (G) and 13 (B). That would give you a feel for the diatonic ones.

    Then you could do all the altered sounds, like the b5/#11 (G#/Ab), #5 (A#/Bb), b9 (Eb) and #9 (F). It might be instructive to the ear.



    But it wouldn't really tell you what to play over a certain chord in a tune per se. Nor would it tell you how to play them. It's far quicker to know straight away what a certain chord demands. Like D7#11 would sound best with...

    But you were going to look that out for yourself, I believe :-)

    (I just googled it. It took 0.45 secs to find the answer - right at the top of the page)
    Lol yeah I was going to seek out a answer to it eventually. But thanks for the insight into those type of chords, I will have to try different ideas over it!

  28. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot81 View Post
    Lol yeah I was going to seek out a answer to it eventually. But thanks for the insight into those type of chords, I will have to try different ideas over it!
    Have I given you an insight into these types of chords? I've only pointed out the obvious, that D7#11 isn't the same as an ordinary D7. But that you can see on the lead sheet.

    One day you'll tell us what you have done, not what you're going to do!

  29. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    -but not a word of that is actually in the native language of the ear, which is purely phenomenological.

    My thinking is that learning to improvise is progressively learning to really hear:

    -learning to hear what you can't yet play
    -learning how to hear how to play it
    -learning to hear when you play it right and wrong
    -learning how to hear what you want to play
    -learning to play what you want to hear

    Improvisation is hearing, selecting what to play by how it sounds.
    Pauln, if I could like this response infinitely, I would

    You can work on technique and get your chops up and that's that.

    But you can work on your ear for a life time and still not cover everything possible. Every pro player that I've studied with has said "yeah, I'm still working on my ear these days".

    When I play these days, it's my ears that set me apart. I'm still building my chops, but my ear allows me to be musical and interact with everyone on the band stand.

    You know who's got huge ears that I've dug for years?

    ART FARMER

    (you thought I was gonna say Miles Davis, right?)

  30. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    -but not a word of that is actually in the native language of the ear, which is purely phenomenological.

    My thinking is that learning to improvise is progressively learning to really hear:

    -learning to hear what you can't yet play
    -learning how to hear how to play it
    -learning to hear when you play it right and wrong
    -learning how to hear what you want to play
    -learning to play what you want to hear

    Improvisation is hearing, selecting what to play by how it sounds.
    I've posted repeatedly my view that jazz requires two things. One, you have to think of an interesting line and two, you have to be able to play it instantly.

    But this thread was moving in a different direction. The OP asked about playing a certain scale over a certain chord. I suggested focusing on the sound of each note against the chord. Lots of people learn which scale to play over which chord. My view is that it's a good idea, at least part of the time, to think about each note in the chromatic scale against each chord. There are a bunch of benefits to thinking this way. It has to be combined with a bunch of other knowledge, but when you're there, and you know the sounds, you can pick out the notes you want to make a line sound a certain way.

  31. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I've posted repeatedly my view that jazz requires two things. One, you have to think of an interesting line and two, you have to be able to play it instantly.

    But this thread was moving in a different direction. The OP asked about playing a certain scale over a certain chord. I suggested focusing on the sound of each note against the chord. Lots of people learn which scale to play over which chord. My view is that it's a good idea, at least part of the time, to think about each note in the chromatic scale against each chord. There are a bunch of benefits to thinking this way. It has to be combined with a bunch of other knowledge, but when you're there, and you know the sounds, you can pick out the notes you want to make a line sound a certain way.
    Yes, the hard work of development that enables the forming of spontaneous lines and phrases of human musical vocabulary rather than sourcing a stark "machinery" of scales, arps, etc.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

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