Using not Dorian over the 2 chord?

[Yonatan]

I picked up a copy of Jazz Guitar Lines by Lucky Elden and just started working with it. Now, I know that the point of this book is not to over analyze the lines, but to get them in your fingers, ears, and experiment with them over different chords. But I can't help but asking: I noticed right away that the minor lines, which get demonstrated over 251 changes, are decidedly not Dorian. For example, the A minor lines use the F natural.

Now I know that minor chord does not automatically mean "play Dorian," but I thought that in the context of the major 251 you would want to use Dorian since the major 6th (e.g. F sharp in this case) would be diatonic to the 1 chord (and not F natural).

So by using the flat 6th over the 2 chord in these lines, are these really very advanced lines, a sort of outside playing, since it's not diatonic to the 1 chord?

I know that what matters is what sound the licks convey, and not some kind of rules that I'm asking about. But this question jumped out at me, as when I look at typical examples of 251 lines in other study materials, the melody over the 2 chord tends to be Dorian (or skips the 6th altogether).

[M-ster]

... I noticed right away that the minor lines, which get demonstrated over 251 changes, are decidedly not Dorian. For example, the A minor lines use the F natural. ...

Your question is not clear, but if you're talking about the ii chord in a typical minor ii - V - i, then your observation is correct: it does not take Dorian. It would normally be Locrian (if you're trying to describe it modally).

So, in your A minor example, ii - V - i is Bm7b5 - E7 - Am. Bm7b5 would take B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B. The notes of the A minor scale.

I'm sure you'll get 10,000 more responses. Brace yourself.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think you said *major* 251, right? Does he consistently use a b6 over the ii chord? Maybe he's just trying to mix it up, or he's using it as an upper neighbour of the 5 note. You can always resolve by a half step.

[bako]

Major scales present 3 variants of m7 modes, IIm7, IIIm7 and VIm7.
It is possible to considerer VIIm7b5 as an even darker minor.

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 is the brightest m7 collection and also the naturally diatonic IIm7.
It can continue within the major scale (V13) or move to a darker dominant color.

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 is a shade darker m7, b6 can be an anticipation of the #9 of the dominant
or resolve upward to the 3rd.

1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 is the darker still, anticipating both the #9 and b13 of the dominant.

1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 though technically not a m7, can fulfill the same progressional function.
It anticipates b9, #9 and b13

I try to think in terms of choosing brighter and darker colors in a voicing or melody and whether
to emphasize commonality or differential while navigating progressions.

While dorian is highly common, it is not the only possibility. No idea what the author has in mind.

[Jonah]

2-5-1 in C major for example is Dm - G - C it is II - V - I in littral sense.... going from 2nd scale of major through 5th to 1. Functionally it is going to tonic of the key (or the trunaroud if it is used just locally).

Dorian is the scale that is derived from the II of major... playing Dorian in such a context means nothing but playing a C major...
and playing just a C major in such context is pure diatonic playing.... it is possible but it is by far not the only option and it is very straight sound even if you involve anticipation because from harmonic point of view in jazz IMHO --- V is just a passing betwen II and I...
and from melodic point of view I would say that on the contrary it is all just V (even I sometimes)...

So I would actually think about extention and alteration of dominant here (V) no matter which chord you have now II, V or I...
and use it as suspection or anticipation of harmonic notes maybe..

So in a word if you want to think scale I would think about V dom scale and its different altered versions... on all the chords in progression

[Yonatan]

Yes, I was referring to the mi 2 chord in the context of the major 251 progression.

The first example in the book is a 251 in Gmaj, and he starts off on the 2 chord (Ami) with an ascending Dmi7 arpeggio, which of course picks up the F natural.

Looking through the book, I see this in many examples, though I did see at least one that uses the major6 of the 2 chord/scale (i.e. Dorian sound).

So maybe he's just going for more tension over the 2 chord.

Or maybe this is the explanation:

"anticipation of the #9 of the dominant"

Is this characteristic in the lines of any particular jazz guitarists?

[Yonatan]

Thanks everyone for your insights.

I had responded before seeing the post before it.
Jonah, bako: I guess you're saying similar things (anticipation of the alterations of the 5 chord). This changes the way I see the 2 chord!

Jonah, now, about viewing even the 1 chord as the 5, doesn't that undermine the "resolution" of the progression? So instead of everything being 1, now everything is 5?

[Jonah]

Anticipation of #9 is pretty strange using of term to me.. usually it more or less stable chord tone that is being anticipated (it is unstable /dissonant for previous chord)
...

Can you post a lick I think where the notes fall in real context can be important here?

Abstractly it is most probably a chromatic approach to 9 of the V...

[Jonah]

Jonah, now, about viewing even the 1 chord as the 5, doesn't that undermine the "resolution" of the progression? So instead of everything being 1, now everything is 5?

1) I think harmonic and melodic thinking can use different models... all as V is a melodic model for me

2) It depends on context... if 2-5-1 is real cadence of the form (like in classical music) then probably it makes to think of resolution to I
.. if it is very local jazzy 2-5-1 cell inserted somewhere in the middle of the tune then there is nothing really to resolve only to move on...

3) everything being 1 is too much. We need at least Subdominant or Dominant in contrast to Tonic to feel tension... I wrote somewhere that classical functions are built on the idea that there is ONLY ONE tonic function chord, it is tonic chord. Becasue stability cannot be represented in different forms (it will be the some greades of instability). Sometimes it is useful to think about it though in jazz it is a bit different...

Everything as 1 though can be used as an utmost harmonic approach though)))
After all ii-v-i is just a route from i to i. It depends on the form also and specific contect


Let's put it this in extreme way

Actuall changes ii-------V------- I---------
Harmonic thinking I--------------------------I ('I am just going off and back around I and that is it')
Melodic thinking V-------------------------V ('I am just always in middle of my way from ii to I')

If you superimpose these too thinking modes you will have it all together ii-v-i

[christianm77]

Interesting what people spend their time worrying about.

[TH]

Interesting what people spend their time worrying about.

Especially when there are genuine priorities in the real world. Like "Dang! Wasn't I supposed to pick up toilet paper on the way home?"

And also in the OP's question of dorian and not dorian in the function of a progression, I see the II- chord as an indication rather than a mandate. Yes it's a strong suggestion, harmonically, but when you're looking at the forest and the trees, its function is to guide us back to home. There are many ways to gain entry to the tonic and if you see II- as a sign post, there are many paths besides a literal read that can take you there. We risk the loss of semantic content, of a phrase having meaning, of having lyric when we think too much about what "should be played" for a functional phrase. If you can create a compelling lyric line, you can get back to the I through non functional motif, you can enter through the IV, you can use dominant phrases that lead you to a I resolution, you can use the II that lives in the IV position (that's the IV- progression), and countless more ways.
If you practice lyric line too, you might learn to internalize and control the values of movement and melodic content. You get this down and you can break the II- rule with great results; you hear it and so will your listeners.
Just one opinion here.
David

[Jonah]

Interesting what people spend their time worrying about.

actually.. it is not even interesting any more

[christianm77]

Especially when there are genuine priorities in the real world. Like "Dang! Wasn't I supposed to pick up toilet paper on the way home?"

How did you know?

[Yonatan]

No worrying! Just comparing this example to many other study materials I've seen.

Anyway, here is snippet of the example.

[TH]

So by using the flat 6th over the 2 chord in these lines, are these really very advanced lines, a sort of outside playing, since it's not diatonic to the 1 chord?

.

Cool sound. It implies a string diatonic based around the IV chord or just another sound. So be it. Once you create gravity in unexpected places, it's called the sound of surprise. If you can embrace the unexpected and do it convincingly, you are allowed to do that. It's your space when you solo. What is does do it create the obligation on your part to bring it back to the realm of the expected, the actual written key of the I in a convincing way.
You can go anywhere you want as long as you can be convincing, just be back in time.

David

[christianm77]

No worrying! Just comparing this example to many other study materials I've seen.

Anyway, here is snippet of the example.

I'd just think of that as all being A minor (EDIT)

[christianm77]

So Dm7 - G#o7 - Cmaj7#5 - C

So we start on Dm7, which is related to Bm7b5 - as David says its a IV chord in Am, and IV relates to II
Tonicise the Am chord with secondary dominant (G#o7/E7b9)
then into a fruity Cmaj7#5 wich more extended Am9(maj7) sound (A melodic minor)
and back to C, which relates to Am7

So it's kind of a II-V-I in Am, except we are playing off the thirds of the chords, not the roots

Bm7b5b9 E7b9 Am9(maj7) Am7

Standard bop practice to do this type of thing - if a chord hangs around, add in some movement.

You know you have the power to put the F# wherever you want, to make the resolution into G (the dreaded 13 on IIm, or the 3rd on V) - but sometimes it's much much cooler not to play it, as in this example.

It's much easier if you think of everything in a II-V from the perspective of II or from V.

[christianm77]

The way I see it FWIW - is that the minor key has natural 'tendencies' - movements within it. The b6 is the biggest unstable note, and the natural 7th can sound either unstable or colouristic depending on context.

As there are different scales the harmonic minorb6 nat7) has the most potential for movement - so you'll notice that the notes from Bm7b5 and E7b9 belong to A harmonic minor

OTOH the dorian and melodic minor scales are much more static. The natural 6th is a classic sound on minor. Also, in this context the nat 6 can be used to create the dominant sound - so Am6 will sound like D9.

(In fact this isn't used your example)

[Jonah]

then into a fruity Cmaj7#5

I'd say that... in the 2nd bar he keeps playing Bm7b5 arp on the 1st beat and starts Am on the 2nd beat

[ragman1]

If you wrote down all the notes of all the possible variations to play over a m7 chord you'd end up with the chromatic scale.

I don't think your example in G is very good. It sounds like some sort of strange diminished thing over the Am7. Over the D7 he's playing a technically correct 9, 13 and #11 but not very well. Trying to be too clever, I'd say. May just as well have used an E maj triad.

But a nice variation on dorian is the Dorian #4. So, over a Dm7 in a 2-5-1, use Dorian but raise the G to G#. Nice. Works well with G alt too.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd just think of that as all being A minor (EDIT)

Agreed...I guess I think of minor as an "entity," not a scale.

[M-ster]

... Anyway, here is snippet of the example.

Interesting. I'd like to see the next bar or two of this example ...

As is, it's a ii - V - i in A minor | Bm7b5 - E7 | A-maj7 A-6 | superimposed over the stated changes.

You might also conclude that Lucky is thinking a 5th away from the stated chords -- i.e., the first bar is E7, the second is A-maj7.

Personally, I *don't* believe that the thinking is "I'm playing a b6 on the ii chord."

[rpjazzguitar]

No worrying! Just comparing this example to many other study materials I've seen.

Anyway, here is snippet of the example.

The first chord is Am7 but the line is a Dm7 arp in beats one and two.
The next three notes are right out of G7.

So, I get the idea that the soloist has decided to juxtapose a ii V in Cmajor against a ii V in Gmajor.

The last 8th of bar 1 can be viewed as an anticipation. Combine it with the first three notes of bar 2 and you have an E triad.

The next 5 notes are from straight Am triad.

So, the soloist seems to be thinking Dm7 G7 Emajor Am. Why does it work? Well, assuming you think it does, it might be because the Dm7 arp is structurally coherent. So are the few notes of G7. He's got some bitonality happening. Does the ear hear Cmaj or Gmaj tonal center?

Then, before it falls apart, he puts in a G# as part of an E major. That changes the chord sound to G13b9, which is still in the Key of C, sort of, but it now has an implied D in the bass. That means the chord can also be seen as D13#11. And, for the last few notes he goes to a iim against the V7.

Now, you could analyze this in terms of A harmonic minor. It may be that the player had worked out 3 and 4 note chords contained within A HM and then arpeggiated them. A B C D E F G# A, noting that he plays it against Am7 part of the time, by omitting a G or G# in that part of the bar

That scale contains the Am triad, the G7b9, G13b9, Emaj and Am triad.

.

[bobby d]

I just use my ears and someone else may hear something I didn't.

I wrote a song in Fmi that goes to Bbmi and the 5th - C7. There are different minor scales that can be used in this progression - Natural minor (fits the key and melody), melodic minor, harmonic minor, but when our sax player hit a D and held it for 3 beats (F dorian) I was surprised at how great it sounded! I'm sure notes in other minor scales would also work well, depending on the sequence of notes.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I vote the whole thing is A harmonic minor. Some folks think "D dominant" over "Am7 D7" (Joe Pass), other folks think "A minor". Dude was thinking A minor --- harmonic, that is. Doesn't sound that great to me.