Using not Dorian over the 2 chord?

**ragman1** · 03-01-2019, 07:37 PM

It doesn't matter 'what it is', it's how it sounds. And it's not very good.

**Pycroft** · 03-02-2019, 11:06 AM

I vote that the whole thing is a typo / proof-reading error . That line screams out " Dm7 G7b9 "

That is really not an idiomatic substitution .

Also , a cursory google shows that Lucky Elden has no reputation outside writing a how-to book . I hope I'm not doing the man a disservice but my god there are a lot of self-styled ' experts ' these days .

**AlsoRan** · 03-02-2019, 12:04 PM

I was curious about Lucky.

Here is a video from 2002(?). Great audio quality and some tasty playing... He looks advanced in age, even then.

**AlsoRan** · 03-02-2019, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Pycroft

I vote that the whole thing is a typo / proof-reading error . That line screams out " Dm7 G7b9 "

That is really not an idiomatic substitution .

Also , a cursory google shows that Lucky Elden has no reputation outside writing a how-to book . I hope I'm not doing the man a disservice but my god there are a lot of self-styled ' experts ' these days .

You bring up an interesting point. How are the authors of these instructional books vetted? Who knows.

That book had a nice little concept, however. It tries to teach you how to get a lot of mileage out of a single line. Through the years, there have been more than a few members of this forum who railed against using lines and licks so the philosophy behind this approach is interesting. As I found out the hard way, you still have to know your fretboard even if you are revising lines on the fly.

**Reg** · 03-02-2019, 12:58 PM

yea it's an old book... the basic concept he shows you 30 lines and then shows how to use those lines over chords or chord patterns...

he starts with chord families... example #1

Ima7 (Cma7),
II7 (D7),
#IV7b5 and #IV-7b5 F#-7b5
VImin Amin

So he's using Cmaj7 as starting reference, then the diatonic relative Minor or Amin
and D7 and it's Diatonic functional relative.... F#-7b5

You then transpose the chord patterns... and change the target.... Cmaj7 becomes Cmin, or relative min of Ebma7

You can also use other harmonic and functional relationships.... A- to D7 is II- V, one of the basic chord patterns of Jazz... subs yada YADAA

So you can use the Line over any of the chords above, or combination(s)... I think the example OP posted is from this first example.

So you memorize the lines.... and then memorize how to use the lines over different chords...anyway that's why the II- chord uses natural minor harmonic references, harmonic minor etc... There is no Dorian yet, Dorian would be an embellishment of Nat. Min.

I mean I see the line posted as D-7.... B-7b5 (or Bdim7 from HM)..... E7b9.... A-7 Most of the lines are from Maj/Min functional harmony.... I don't remember... the 2nd section of the book gets into jazz of the last 60 years?

It's a pretty old school approach, and without expanding your ears, (lines) etc... playing with training wheels etc... meaning very vanilla with embellishments. Not BAD OR WRONG ETC... just vanilla.

But it's organized and if you get your technical skills together... at least you'll be able to play, and once you get to that point... your going to expand your understandings and ears because you'll have the skills to do so.

**Yonatan** · 03-02-2019, 01:13 PM

Using not Dorian over the 2 chord?-rsz_img_20190302_184700-jpg

I may have done a disservice to the author by showing only one example, out of context. So I'm adding the second. As you can see, it's the same chords, and same melody, only now its been transposed. More "typical" example now maybe? The author says later on to try the lines out on unexpected chords, that your ears may like it. As to how the first example sounds, I guess it's in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder.

**AlsoRan** · 03-02-2019, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Yonatan

Attachment 60396

No worrying! Just comparing this example to many other study materials I've seen.

Anyway, here is snippet of the example.

Briefly, when I tried to use the book and ran into notes such as the G# at the end of the first measure, I would get confused because I would be thinking I am using the A minor scale with the root on the sixth string. Eventually, I got confused as he would change up different notes to suit the chord and I would wonder what scale or arpeggio he was pulling from.

I eventually put the book down. I was just not good enough at that point to be able to utilize it.

**rpjazzguitar** · 03-02-2019, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Yonatan

I may have done a disservice to the author by showing only one example, out of context. So I'm adding the second. As you can see, it's the same chords, and same melody, only now its been transposed. More "typical" example now maybe? The author says later on to try the lines out on unexpected chords, that your ears may like it. As to how the first example sounds, I guess it's in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder.

Looking at this, what it seems is that the author may have started with a ii V I in C, changing the G to a G# to make the line a little more interesting. Hard to say if he was thinking AHM or just outlining and E triad to get a G13b9 sound or what. Maybe he just heard it and he wasn't thinking of anything.

Then, he transposed the same line to other keys to make a point about how the same line can work over different chords.

I guess the idea is that you can learn one lick and then use it in multiple situations, thereby appearing, or really, expanding your vocabulary.

**christianm77** · 03-03-2019, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

You bring up an interesting point. How are the authors of these instructional books vetted? Who knows.

That book had a nice little concept, however. It tries to teach you how to get a lot of mileage out of a single line. Through the years, there have been more than a few members of this forum who railed against using lines and licks so the philosophy behind this approach is interesting. As I found out the hard way, you still have to know your fretboard even if you are revising lines on the fly.

I think working on lines is great provided you sink time into ways to vary them and use them in different contexts.

It’s a good way of overcoming the blank page problem ‘make something up!’

**christianm77** · 03-03-2019, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Pycroft

I vote that the whole thing is a typo / proof-reading error . That line screams out " Dm7 G7b9 "

That is really not an idiomatic substitution .

Also , a cursory google shows that Lucky Elden has no reputation outside writing a how-to book . I hope I'm not doing the man a disservice but my god there are a lot of self-styled ' experts ' these days .

Apparently he taught music at the University of Miami. Maybe Jack Zucker knows more?

I don’t see that line as non-idiomatic. Tonicising the ii chord is a basic part of bebop language.

**Reg** · 03-03-2019, 10:58 AM

So take line 1... just play A C B before... same with other lines... establish a tonal or harmonic Reference before you label.

If you take Amin7 as tonal target or center.....

F#-7b5 is Diatonic relative (down a Diatonic 3rd) of....Amin... and Cmaj7 is Diatonic relative (up a Diatonic 3rd)
F#-7b5 is relative min. of Amin.............................................. ...Cmaj7 is relative maj of Amin.

And D7 is the relative V7 of Amin... II- V7 and the obvious relationship of D7 and F#-7b5.

It's just a way of organizing source of embellishments... using maj/min functional harmony.

I don't really like his lines... but whats the difference between using patterns or very vanilla single tonic arpeggios etc...

**AlsoRan** · 03-03-2019, 12:16 PM

I am curious. Can anyone tell me if this is basically what Robert Conti teaches - using lines instead of theory?

**ragman1** · 03-03-2019, 01:20 PM

I think we're making an incredible mountain out of a molehill. There's nothing earth-shattering about this line. In fact it's pretty banal. He's pre-empting the chords before he comes to them.

1) Am7 arp over the Am7

... followed by an F#o arp (which pre-empts the D7b9 sound over the D7)

2) then the D7b9 over the D7 (except he's used B and G which is awful: see below **)

... plus an Em arp (which is a recognised sub and gives a 9 feel to it and pre-empts the next bar - but I don't like the b9 sound reverting to a nat 9 sound. Can't see the point of that)

3) and carries it into the GM7 (which is obviously fine).

** The only notes which grate are the B and G over the D7. If he'd played C and A instead the line would be fine. But I think he's careless and thinks any old thing will do. Not if you're going to put it in a book it's not!

Here's the original and then the corrected notes in bar 2. Then the whole thing is okay but pretty ordinary really.

I know the problem with writing this sort of book. After a while whatever you play sounds fine because the ear gets used to it. But that's why it needs to be meticulously checked by someone else who knows what they're doing.

**Reg** · 03-03-2019, 05:06 PM

Yea... agree ragman... in his book he posts... you can use this line, (and a bunch of other lines), over A-, Cma7, F#-7b5 and D7...
He has 30 lines and how to link the lines over chords... Think of an expanded Martino Min approach.

You can call anything anything you want, and correct lines etc... but he has an approach and breaks it down.

Nothing to do with dim etc..., the book is from 1970... it's dated but somewhat cool for it's time.

here is his version of Black Nile

http://jazzgtr.com/media/Black_Nile.mp3

**rpjazzguitar** · 03-03-2019, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea... agree ragman... in his book he posts... you can use this line, (and a bunch of other lines), over A-, Cma7, F#-7b5 and D7...
He has 30 lines and how to link the lines over chords... Think of an expanded Martino Min approach.

You can call anything anything you want, and correct lines etc... but he has an approach and breaks it down.

Nothing to do with dim etc..., the book is from 1970... it's dated but somewhat cool for it's time.

here is his version of Black Nile

http://jazzgtr.com/media/Black_Nile.mp3

Reminds me of the way Warren Nunes taught. He said that there are two kinds of chords, type I and type II.

Roughly, these are tonic and dominant. He thought of all chords within a type as interchangeable, as follows.

In the key of G, Gmaj Bm Dmaj7 (he threw in a lydian) and Em were all the same thing.

And, Am7 Cmaj7 Em7 were all the same thing.

I can't recall how he classified F#m7b5, but probably as a type II (dominant).

Em7 was in both types

Any lick that worked on a chord within a type worked on every chord within that type.

I haven't seen the book under discussion, but it seems like he may be applying a similar idea, although, frankly, I didn't think much of the line.

**ragman1** · 03-03-2019, 07:34 PM

Reg -

A lot of instruction books give a line and then several chords over which it'll work.

In your other post you brought up F#m7b5 a lot but I can't see an F#m7b5 in the line. But the notes of an F#o are definitely there - F# A C D# - or a rootless D7b9, of course.

**AlsoRan** · 03-03-2019, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea... agree ragman... in his book he posts... you can use this line, (and a bunch of other lines), over A-, Cma7, F#-7b5 and D7...
He has 30 lines and how to link the lines over chords... Think of an expanded Martino Min approach.

You can call anything anything you want, and correct lines etc... but he has an approach and breaks it down.

Nothing to do with dim etc..., the book is from 1970... it's dated but somewhat cool for it's time.

here is his version of Black Nile

http://jazzgtr.com/media/Black_Nile.mp3

Nice, little song he has there. Thanks.

**Reg** · 03-04-2019, 11:45 AM

Yea... Rag... get the book or at least do some research. There are many more lines and he actually tells you most of what you need to know to apply his approach.

You need to have a bigger picture of vertical and horizontal lineup for labeling. Music usually doesn't go by in slow motion.

Yea probable similar to Warrens approach to playing.... they were/are both pretty vanilla... rhythmical and harmonically.... from old school embellishment with maj/min reference. ( that's how I also started) I liked Warrens printed info better, although again old school.

But most don't ever put in the organized time to have an approach etc... which is understandable... it's a lot of work and much of that work isn't that rewarding etc...

**ragman1** · 03-04-2019, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea... Rag... get the book

On the basis of what we see here? You get it for me! Anyway, you said you didn't like his lines much... me neither.

his approach

I don't really believe in 'new' approaches. It's all been done before. It's just music.

I used to buy books years ago and learnt practically nothing from them. I think most of them are money-making exercises or vanity projects for the writer (who probably has lots of fun spinning out lines for the CD).

In any case, there's enough online to keep a person happy for years. All free :-)

**Reg** · 03-04-2019, 09:21 PM

hey Rag
I do like his playing... he can at least cover.

If you really want the book... I would be happy to send you one. It's reasonable, and I like to help support fellow musicians...

Are you the guy who post all those acoustic examples...

**AlsoRan** · 03-04-2019, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

yea it's an old book... the basic concept he shows you 30 lines and then shows how to use those lines over chords or chord patterns...

he starts with chord families... example #1

Ima7 (Cma7),
II7 (D7),
#IV7b5 and #IV-7b5 F#-7b5
VImin Amin

So he's using Cmaj7 as starting reference, then the diatonic relative Minor or Amin
and D7 and it's Diatonic functional relative.... F#-7b5

You then transpose the chord patterns... and change the target.... Cmaj7 becomes Cmin, or relative min of Ebma7

You can also use other harmonic and functional relationships.... A- to D7 is II- V, one of the basic chord patterns of Jazz... subs yada YADAA

So you can use the Line over any of the chords above, or combination(s)... I think the example OP posted is from this first example.

So you memorize the lines.... and then memorize how to use the lines over different chords...anyway that's why the II- chord uses natural minor harmonic references, harmonic minor etc... There is no Dorian yet, Dorian would be an embellishment of Nat. Min.

I mean I see the line posted as D-7.... B-7b5 (or Bdim7 from HM)..... E7b9.... A-7 Most of the lines are from Maj/Min functional harmony.... I don't remember... the 2nd section of the book gets into jazz of the last 60 years?

It's a pretty old school approach, and without expanding your ears, (lines) etc... playing with training wheels etc... meaning very vanilla with embellishments. Not BAD OR WRONG ETC... just vanilla.

But it's organized and if you get your technical skills together... at least you'll be able to play, and once you get to that point... your going to expand your understandings and ears because you'll have the skills to do so.

So Reg,

I tried this book but could not internalize the lines well enough and gave up. I kept wondering the "How" of getting those lines internalized enough to be able to use them. From what you are saying, the only "How" is to spend the time, put in the work, and have the talent/skill/ear to be able to apply them correctly on the fly. Even though Jazz Guitar Lines Book says it has the "secret," it appears you still have to do the heavy lifting to get there. Would you agree?

**ragman1** · 03-05-2019, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

hey Rag
I do like his playing... he can at least cover.

Then you've changed your mind since you posted this in #36:

I don't really like his lines

There's a vid of his actual playing posted in #28. It's okay, pleasant enough. I just don't like the lines quoted here, that's all.

Also, if you google him, he only comes up as a writer of books. There's practically nothing about his being any kind of a player.

lucky elden - Bing

Are you the guy who post all those acoustic examples

Correct.

**Reg** · 03-05-2019, 10:14 AM

Hey AlsoRan... Yea... still lots of work or lifting. Old style, right... transcribe lines, memorize them and then modify and adapt them into you playing.

So he helps you with the transcribing... and gives some possible applications.

Rag... your hard to have discussion with.

**Yonatan** · 03-05-2019, 11:50 AM

BTW if anyone is interested, you can see a few more of the lines and examples from this book at the Google Books preview.

Also, to diverge a bit, I purchased this book at the same time as another one, "Jazz Guitar Lines of the Greats" by Steve Briody. I didn't think I'd be able to use it for a while, because it doesn't have any string indications (tab or "circles" in the standard notation). Now, this wasn't a surprise, the author says so himself on the youtube promo, but I thought it would be too advanced for me right now, but I tried a few of the lines, and I was able to lay them out fairly easily. Now, I'm not sure if I'm laying them out with the best phrasing in the world, but they're definitely doable!

**AlsoRan** · 03-05-2019, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Yonatan

BTW if anyone is interested, you can see a few more of the lines and examples from this book at the Google Books preview.

Also, to diverge a bit, I purchased this book at the same time as another one, "Jazz Guitar Lines of the Greats" by Steve Briody. I didn't think I'd be able to use it for a while, because it doesn't have any string indications (tab or "circles" in the standard notation). Now, this wasn't a surprise, the author says so himself on the youtube promo, but I thought it would be too advanced for me right now, but I tried a few of the lines, and I was able to lay them out fairly easily. Now, I'm not sure if I'm laying them out with the best phrasing in the world, but they're definitely doable!

I have enjoyed this topic you raised. And by topic, I mean everything boiling down to using memorized lines as a vehicle to improvise. As I said, I tried it for awhile but was not able to make good progress. There are several books out there with lines that move me. But I would need a heck of a lot more time and motivation to be able to get what I want out of them, unlike others that I have read about who would practice and play guitar for 6 to 8 hours a day for months.