The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I am not 100% sure how to phrase this question, but let me try.

    So I have worked my way through Introduction To Jazz Guitar Soloing. I got my arpeggio shapes down, I have learned altered scales, altered arpeggios etc... Now my question is, what is the considered standard approach to thinking/using the extensions. I have heard Pat talk about this also, in his "lesson" on YouTube. Do people always think substitutions(which I guess is the same as superimposing)? Do people also often make a hybrid of several substitutions(this has a term, doesn't it?) For example the first two bars of Wes D natural Blues. He plays both a root and a 9, which would be a hybrid of a VIIØ7 and a V7 I guess. Or do people just play the original arpeggio and use the scale tones available around it?

    I feel the book could have explained this topic a little more in depth, cause I am left with questions. Even though I have worked with the book for a long time now.

    Of course, I understand that people don't always think this strictly.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Both,... but more important is probably how it is done in THAT method. More about substitutions I think, and that's perfectly fine.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Both,... but more important is probably how it is done in THAT method. More about substitutions I think, and that's perfectly fine.
    Okay, then I got it right. Secondly though, is it common to combine substitutions? So for example the first bar over Wes D natural blues. One can say he uses a D7 arpeggio together with F#ø7?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Okay, then I got it right. Secondly though, is it common to combine substitutions? So for example the first bar over Wes D natural blues. One can say he uses a D7 arpeggio together with F#ø7?
    So that's the same as F#m7b5. Standard sub for D7, even in the book, right?

    It's cool to learn to start seeing chords in intervals of 3rds. D7 and F#m7b5 are basically the same chord. F#m7b5 is a rootless D9, and D7 is basically F#m6b5.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    So that's the same as F#m7b5. Standard sub for D7, even in the book, right?

    It's cool to learn to start seeing chords in intervals of 3rds. D7 and F#m7b5 are basically the same chord. F#m7b5 is a rootless D9, and D7 is basically F#m6b5.
    Yes, I know, but as you say, it’s rootles, and he uses the root :-) that’s why I asked about combining.


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  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Okay, then I got it right. Secondly though, is it common to combine substitutions? So for example the first bar over Wes D natural blues. One can say he uses a D7 arpeggio together with F#ø7?
    Transcribe your favourite players and find out.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Transcribe your favourite players and find out.

    It's like you didn't read what I wrote (not meant in a rude way)


    I asked, cause Wes Plays both a 9 and a R over a 7 chord. So that's why I thought of that as a hybrid.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    It's like you didn't read what I wrote (not meant in a rude way)


    I asked, cause Wes Plays both a 9 and a R over a 7 chord. So that's why I thought of that as a hybrid.
    I’m not sure if I understand the question. Without looking at an actual musical example I can’t really say how I would view it from your description alone.

    The same musical information can be understood in a number of ways as well which complicates matters.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I’m not sure if I understand the question. Without looking at an actual musical example I can’t really say how I would view it from your description alone.

    The same musical information can be understood in a number of ways as well which complicates matters.

    D and E are not in the same arpeggio, so that means that he is either playing scale based, or combining arpeggios:

    http://www.brucesaunders.com/Resourc...20no%20tab.pdf

    My question was basically if it is normal to combine arpeggios. So combining the D7 with the F#Ø7.

  11. #10

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    There is this thing called D9.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    D and E are not in the same arpeggio, so that means that he is either playing scale based, or combining arpeggios:

    http://www.brucesaunders.com/Resourc...20no%20tab.pdf

    My question was basically if it is normal to combine arpeggios. So combining the D7 with the F#Ø7.
    OK I'm going to put my answer as another question. Look at the E's in bar 1 and 2. What intervallic relationship does it have to the note following and preceding it? Does it look like an arpeggio or a scale to you?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK I'm going to put my answer as another question. Look at the E's in bar 1 and 2. What intervallic relationship does it have to the note following and preceding it? Does it look like an arpeggio or a scale to you?
    That depends how you want to look at it. E-F could be described as chromaticism. In regards of D, I would think of it as a 9, and not related to scale. Rather just as someone playing a D9 arpeggio.


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  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    That depends how you want to look at it. E-F could be described as chromaticism. In regards of D, I would think of it as a 9, and not related to scale. Rather just as someone playing a D9 arpeggio.


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    The E in Bar 1 is an upper diatonic neighbour tone.

    You could hear it as a 9th, sure, but I don't think so. Why?

    Because the D is on the beat and it returns to the D on the +. It's a very typical little melodic turn. You hear them all the time in Charlie Parker for instance, or in baroque music. It's a melodic ornament. People can miss them out of bop heads and so on without really affecting the harmony of the line.

    So I don't think that E has a harmonic function.

    In fact the whole phrase is a diatonic stepwise decoration of the note D. No arpeggios here.

    We get an arpeggio next bar - descending G triad then the (flat) 7th of that chord, so I suppose kind of a jumbled up G7 arp. That E is a passing tone - stepwise connection - from the 5th to the 7th of the G. Doesn't count as a harmonic note. It's just filler. You could miss it out and the harmony would be unchanged.

    Now if Wes had played (and this is by no means unlikely) D F# A C E - that would be a harmonic E. You would, generally call that a D9 arpeggio. While not a D9 arp, you can see a similar example of a D7b9 arp in bar 4. Notice that the passing tone D also allows the Eb to end up in a strong place rhythmically, on beat 4.

  15. #14

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    "Standard"?

    There's "book and student standard", "theory and teacher standard", and lots of different performer "standards".

    Wes is your example; if you could ask him, he would not be saying any of what's being discussed. After performing a song as a guest on a talk show, he sat down with the host who's first question was, "What was the first chord of that song?"
    Wes just grinned and replied, "Hmm...I don't know... I just cool".

    Not your example, but similarly, in an old VHS converted for youtube, Joe Pass is playing and talking with the interviewer who asks him the chord he just played... Joe stops, still holding a G13th at the third fret, and he stares at it in silence for five long seconds before he can name the chord.

    Clearly these fellows were not needing, nor using the names of things to play jazz guitar. This is a high level of standard where the sound of the music speaks fully for itself and does not have to be additionally described.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Or do people just play the original arpeggio and use the scale tones available around it?
    I think that's probably right. If the chord is D7 you know there's the basic DF#AC arpeggio. You don't have to start on a D, you can begin anywhere.

    Then, if you want to spice it up a bit, you can go for the B or E etc. Or, if you want to alter it, for the Bb/C or Eb/F, and so on. Or superimpose other triads on it, like Em (or quite a few others). Or notes from the Eb melodic minor, etc. Or, of course, D blues, naturally.

    It's up to you. But I'd say have the initial arpeggio clear first. Then you have a firm base.

    (The ear is far more important than analysis. Know what notes are going to produce what sound, what feel, what mood, and use them well. Doesn't matter that much what a textbook would say, do it yourself.)

  17. #16

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    Are you using this? I'd take one bar at a time and see what he's doing with it. Keep it simple. The point is that improv is never just arpeggios, or just scales, or just this or that, it's everything thrown in together.

    By the way, the transition from dominant to dominant in a blues is usually a diminished chord from the 5th - i.e. Ao over D7 (to G7). What looks like an altered sound is more likely to be that. Bar 27 is an Am arp, then Ao (that's where the Eb comes from). On the other hand bar 41 is an altered scale (Bb mm).

    Bar 28 has a natural B in it which is nice. And bar 33 is an F#m arp plus a B alt run (C mm).

    The point is these guys are really, really good at mixing their notes, scales, arps, subs, chromatics, and all the other licks and tricks. Embarrassing really :-)


  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    It's like you didn't read what I wrote (not meant in a rude way)


    I asked, cause Wes Plays both a 9 and a R over a 7 chord. So that's why I thought of that as a hybrid.
    The question is how he gets to an E against a D7? Is that the issue?

    There are lots of ways that this can be thought about.

    Easiest may be to recognize that ninth chords are often used interchangeably with 7th chords. This occurs quite frequently in jazz blues.

    Now, if you want a scale, Dmixo works, or just think D7 or D9 scale.

    In reality, what actually happens is the player knows what the note will sound like against the chord and just feels it. No thought.

  19. #18

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    It’s clearly a scalar ornament of the D though. Have a look at the notation.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It’s clearly a scalar ornament of the D though. Have a look at the notation.
    What's the notation for vector ornamentation?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    What's the notation for vector ornamentation?
    I don’t know what’s worse - that you made that joke, or I got it.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    Easiest may be to recognize that ninth chords are often used interchangeably with 7th chords. This occurs quite frequently in jazz blues.
    Quite. Jazz blues chords are often played as, say,

    D13 - G9 - D13 - D7alt
    G9 - (G#o) - D13 - B7#9 (or F#m7/B7alt)
    Em7 - A7 - D13 - A7alt

    So the lines can outline those sorts of changes even if they're being played straight.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t know what’s worse - that you made that joke, or I got it.
    Oh, that you got it. Definitely :-)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Quite. Jazz blues chords are often played as, say,

    D13 - G9 - D13 - D7alt
    G9 - (G#o) - D13 - B7#9 (or F#m7/B7alt)
    Em7 - A7 - D13 - A7alt

    So the lines can outline those sorts of changes even if they're being played straight.
    B7alt (i.e. B7b5) in D? WTF is wrong with you?????

    Gross harmonic turpitude.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    B7alt (i.e. B7b5) in D? WTF is wrong with you?????

    Gross harmonic turpitude.
    That b5 does sound wrong if you play D13 to B7b5, but that is reading the "(or F#m7/B7alt)" as a selection choice between those two individual chords rather than what is intended - subbing the two chords played as a change, that change taking the place of B7#9.

    You know when you see "alt" that you have to consider which among the four alts sound good.

    D13 to B7(#9, b9, #5) all work.
    D13 to B7(b5) does not work.

    But

    D13 to F#m7 to B7(#9, b9, #5, and b5) all work because the F#m7 to B7alt shift substitution has been assigned a direction* from F#m7 to Em7, and that accommodates the b5 nicely.

    * like a you know what

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    That b5 does sound wrong if you play D13 to B7b5, but that is reading the "(or F#m7/B7alt)" as a selection choice between those two individual chords rather than what is intended - subbing the two chords played as a change, that change taking the place of B7#9.

    You know when you see "alt" that you have to consider which among the four alts sound good.

    D13 to B7(#9, b9, #5) all work.
    D13 to B7(b5) does not work.

    But

    D13 to F#m7 to B7(#9, b9, #5, and b5) all work because the F#m7 to B7alt shift substitution has been assigned a direction* from F#m7 to Em7, and that accommodates the b5 nicely.

    * like a you know what
    You are probably right lol. Not a movement I play much but I’ll give it a go tomorrow.