What is considered the standard way to look at extensions in terms of arpeggios?

[znerken]

Ha I can tell you don’t know many tunes ;-)

Not a unusual move at all - G7 G#o7 D/A (IV #ivo7 I) is classic progression. Very common sub for blues and rhythm changes. Not everything is a V-I you know :-)

Before you move on, what is the intervallic relationship between the diminished chord notes and the notes immediately before them?

I don't know a lot of blues tunes, unfortunately no.

Half steps, all the way.

[ragman1]

Of course there's lots of F's in it, it's blues, innit?

[christianm77]

I don't know a lot of blues tunes, unfortunately no.

Half steps, all the way.

Well there you go. Put this in your library of cool moves, under ways of getting back from IV to I.

Ok so you cross this off your bucket list, you’ve just caught a jazz musician using the diminished scale.

Basically alternating half and whole steps, this is probably the most traditional way to use it (to my mind) - lower chromatic neighbour tones on the upbeats before the G#o7 chord tones. So it’s almost just an embellished chord tone figure.

Wes likes this scale and the whole tone a lot.

[christianm77]

See how much you can learn this way? Thanks for letting me talk you through the analysis btw, hope it helps.

[znerken]

See how much you can learn this way? Thanks for letting me talk you through the analysis btw, hope it helps.

It helps tons! I hope I can ask more question as I progress in the solo. I try to just do a couple of bars and then really get them into my skin before moving on.


Thank you!

[znerken]

By the way, is thinking of the stuff before that as MM valid, if we dont want to do a "modes approach" in the name of Emily?

[christianm77]

It helps tons! I hope I can ask more question as I progress in the solo. I try to just do a couple of bars and then really get them into my skin before moving on.


Thank you!

Please do, I’m learning also by doing it....

[christianm77]

By the way, is thinking of the stuff before that as MM valid, if we dont want to do a "modes approach" in the name of Emily?

Emily was influenced by but not stylistically identical to Wes.

I haven’t seen anything in this solo so far I would interpret as pure mm harmony. A lot of chord tones, some dim7 stuff with the 1 b9 #9 thingy that some would interpret as altered or dim scale, but I personally don’t.

It’s a tricky one..... I think the concept of mm harmony as a thing came in after Wes’s era, but there are things like it. If I see something like that I’ll analyse the modern way.

[znerken]

Emily was influenced by but not stylistically identical to Wes.

I haven’t seen anything in this solo so far I would interpret as pure mm harmony. A lot of chord tones, some dim7 stuff with the 1 b9 #9 thingy that some would interpret as altered or dim scale, but I personally don’t.

It’s a tricky one..... I think the concept of mm harmony as a thing came in after Wes’s era, but there are things like it. If I see something like that I’ll analyse the modern way.

I meant melodic minor as in not altered, so up a fifth. So R-9-3-#11-5-7-13

[christianm77]

I meant melodic minor as in not altered, so up a fifth. So R-9-3-#11-5-7-13

Where, sorry?

[christianm77]

I would call that important or companion melodic minor btw, if you don’t like Lydian Dominant. Just for clarity.

[znerken]

I would call that important or companion melodic minor btw, if you don’t like Lydian Dominant. Just for clarity.

Ye I call it Lydian Dominant.

Well, all the way before that diminished line we talked about. So the two bars over G7 basically.

[christianm77]

Can’t see any C#s. Have I missed them?

[znerken]

Can’t see any C#s. Have I missed them?

And also in the bar after over the D7 there's a C#

[christianm77]

And also in the bar after over the D7 there's a C#

Meddling key signatures!

Ok the one in the dim scale doesn’t count.

Yeah, sure.

The lower one is effectively a chromatic lower neighbour tone to D - and you guessed it - on a weak beat. So not a harmonically active note:. You see stuff like that in bop a lot. First note of Scrapple for instance.

The important thing is that you also look out for the D dorian/G mix being mixed up with that sound.

[znerken]

Meddling key signatures!

Ok the one in the dim scale doesn’t count.

Yeah, sure.

The lower one is effectively a chromatic lower neighbour tone to D - and you guessed it - on a weak beat. So not a harmonically active note:. You see stuff like that in bop a lot. First note of Scrapple for instance.

The important thing is that you also look out for the D dorian/G mix being mixed up with that sound.

So I guess lydian dominant is sort of a way/alternative of G mixolydian. I mean since Emily didn't use modes for instance, she probably always used lydian dominant instead. I mean it's almost identical. It's just a tiny bit cooler sounding mixolydian scale. She also listened to so much bebop that it's 100% certain that she added that 7 natural in there when she played stuff also, so there we have a lydian dominant bebop scale?

[christianm77]

Btw that G-F#-F walk down is a super important little nugget of language. Happens in a bebop scale of course, but lots of other stuff

Don’t just think In scales, look at the chord tones

[znerken]

Btw that G-F#-F walk down is a super important little nugget of language. Happens in a bebop scale of course, but lots of other stuff

Don’t just think In scales, look at the chord tones

Yes, I do that a lot. I just want to be able to understand what is being played, and when I can't jus smack a arpeggio label on it, I look at scales while I cut myself with a guitar pick.

[christianm77]

So I guess lydian dominant is sort of a way/alternative of G mixolydian. I mean since Emily didn't use modes for instance, she probably always used lydian dominant instead. I mean it's almost identical.

Well, I think of lydian dominant as 'modes' - what she (probably) meant was she didn't think G lydian dominant but instead D melodic minor. Technically the melodic minor scale isn't a mode, it's a minor scale.

Unless I transcribe Emily, I can't say. Modern players tend to use Lyd Dominant more than bebop and blue note era players.

It's just a tiny bit cooler sounding mixolydian scale.

Mix is the staple... I go to the related minor for a more unusual sound....

She also listened to so much bebop that it's 100% certain that she added that 7 natural in there when she played stuff also, so there we have a lydian dominant bebop scale?

Sure, I'd have to transcribe her, would be an interesting comparison.

TBH I don't think it matters. I see the two things as closely related... .

Re: lydian dominant - however you like to label it. The #4 on G7 (7th of the related MM) is so common as a neighbour tone, it's almost just part of the mix scales standard ornaments, like the #2 going to 3 and so on.

The whole thing is leaning on #4 as a sound over the G7 is a lydian dominant sound... By which I mean using it very prominently in an accented way. Does happen in bop - a good example is the first line on the D7 from Parker's solo on Moose the Mooche.

But what he plays is (using that A minor on D7 concept):

A C E G B G# E C B G#

So - both the G and G# - see what I mean about mixing it up? A Dorian and MM together... So really I'm talking about a label that might seem pointlessly pedantic, but to me, people say A Melodic Minor, they aren't talking about putting a G in there? The natural 7th is the whole thing that makes the MM sound the way it does... But most of the time in bop, players slide effortlessly between one thing and the other, often as part of a line cliche..... As you say, it's only one note.

But Emily doesn't strike me as a pedantic person.

Anyway, I don't want to be pointlessly unfamiliar about it. I come from Barry Harris who has different names to everything and a non-standard way of looking at things... It's not necessarily helpful for me to talk about that, but suffice to say I've found it to be the most thought out and thorough approach to teaching bop I've encountered.

[znerken]

Thanks for the answer.


To take this thread in another direction, I want to ask the following.


I know a lot of theory stuff, compared to how terrible I am at soloing. I can't figure out how do to do it. Everything sounds terrible. Makes me want to burn my guitar. Now I spend A LOT of time playing guitar, that's not the reason. My teacher gave me the following lesson last session, kind of back to basics:

1. Start with playing guide tones over D natural bues
2. Then start to play small melodies around the guide tone, try to have a motif and repeat it through


So that is nice, but everything I do sounds like shit in a bucket. So I wonder, how do you guys usually recommend getting better at this stuff? Is transcribing and really working with tons of solos the best approach? I mean it's not a good feeling to play with others, when you can't play anything that feels good. Uncertainty and being stressed out is also a big part of it, of course. I know all the arpeggio shapes, but it sorta disappears when I am in the moment. I will start with heroin if I can't figure this out soon. Worked for Parker..


I think it's my phrasing that's the main problem probably. Time and phrasing sucks, and that's why everything sounds like a terrible version of happy birthday.

[christianm77]

Thanks for the answer.


To take this thread in another direction, I want to ask the following.


I know a lot of theory stuff, compared to how terrible I am at soloing. I can't figure out how do to do it. Everything sounds terrible. Makes me want to burn my guitar. Now I spend A LOT of time playing guitar, that's not the reason. My teacher gave me the following lesson last session, kind of back to basics:

1. Start with playing guide tones over D natural bues
2. Then start to play small melodies around the guide tone, try to have a motif and repeat it through


So that is nice, but everything I do sounds like shit in a bucket. So I wonder, how do you guys usually recommend getting better at this stuff? Is transcribing and really working with tons of solos the best approach? I mean it's not a good feeling to play with others, when you can't play anything that feels good. Uncertainty and being stressed out is also a big part of it, of course. I know all the arpeggio shapes, but it sorta disappears when I am in the moment. I will start with heroin if I can't figure this out soon. Worked for Parker..


I think it's my phrasing that's the main problem probably. Time and phrasing sucks, and that's why everything sounds like a terrible version of happy birthday.

Hah! What a question.... I feel I'm still working it out, I think most jazz players do....

I think timing is a MAHAAAAAHAAAAAASIVE part of all of this. It's almost everything. But it's not just time/feel - i.e. how good your time is, it's rhythmic language.

A great player can just solo on chord tones and it will sound mega.

None of which is a tremendous amount of help. I think rhythmic vocabulary helps - really working on written phrases like bop heads and so on, can help a player generally sound more stylish. But it's a long process.

Taking rhythmic phrases from solos, too. But what you are doing here with listening to and writing down rhythms is really great work. As is reading a few pages a day from Bellson.

Anyway, I'll answer in more depth in time, as it's the basic question isn't it? Can't really type more atm.

[rpjazzguitar]

Minor or min 6 a half step is like the upper structure of an altered dominant chord

Notice still no b5 ....

Not properly altered :-)

That's right.

Accounting for the omitted #11 gives you four alterations, and you may still want the third seventh and root.

For G7, that's G Ab Bb B Db Eb F. And, that, of course is Ab MM.

The idea behind a triad or triad+one approach is to simplify finding some notes that outline most of the sound. The Abm add9 does it pretty well. Also, what does a guitarist typically play when comping an alt chord? Usually, #5 and #9, is my guess. So, it reinforces getting that sound.

[christianm77]

That's right.

Accounting for the omitted #11 gives you four alterations, and you may still want the third seventh and root.

For G7, that's G Ab Bb B Db Eb F. And, that, of course is Ab MM.

The idea behind a triad or triad+one approach is to simplify finding some notes that outline most of the sound. The Abm add9 does it pretty well. Also, what does a guitarist typically play when comping an alt chord? Usually, #5 and #9, is my guess. So, it reinforces getting that sound.

Yes, it's a clear area where the theory does not accord with the actual practice.

If you want to reframe it so it's closer perhaps to your thinking, it's learning to hear each altered degree....

But here's the thing - most players historically also played a natural 5th with those options, so it makes sense to think of a different scale. An excellent example is what bopper play on a 7b9 chord. (Or on a o7, dor that matter....)

Again, people say 'diminished scale' but it doesn't include the b13. So there's a gap in the theory here for many players. Then they transcribe and go - Doh! Harmonic Minor. It's like the secret they don't teach at music school... I've had so many players say this...

I think the tritone triad on G7, so Db, is the distinctive one for altered....

[christianm77]

BTW, what may or may not be interesting is Warne Marsh's concept of a dominant 3 scale - a three octave super extended structure like so:

C E G Bb Db' Fb' Ab' C'' Eb'' Gb''

Notice that we have

C7 (natural 5)
Dbmin(maj7)
You don't encounter either the Eb (#9/b3) and the dreaded b5 until the third octave...

For the scale he would actually practice

C D E F G A Bb C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb

Which is obviously running the C mix into the Db melodic minor. Gnarly.

The other two dominant scales are interesting also. In these cases the melodic minor structure is place on the 5th and - less usually, though Ragman might nod his head - the b7.

Marsh was teaching this stuff in the 70s or 80s IIRC? I would be interested to know if this represents an earlier conception of jazz harmony, like LCC, perhaps via Tristano or a development of CST.

(Source: A Jazz Life, Klopotowski.)

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes, it's a clear area where the theory does not accord with the actual practice.

If you want to reframe it so it's closer perhaps to your thinking, it's learning to hear each altered degree....

But here's the thing - most players historically also played a natural 5th with those options, so it makes sense to think of a different scale. An excellent example is what bopper play on a 7b9 chord. (Or on a o7, dor that matter....)

Again, people say 'diminished scale' but it doesn't include the b13. So there's a gap in the theory here for many players. Then they transcribe and go - Doh! Harmonic Minor. It's like the secret they don't teach at music school... I've had so many players say this...

I think the tritone triad on G7, so Db, is the distinctive one for altered....

Am I following this? Natural fifth instead of both altered fifths, or just one?

I can do the combinatorics, but in the end, you're selecting 5s and 9ths based on playing inside the COM, or outside of it, by ear. The usual scale/mode naming conventions require very different sounding names for moving a single note by a half step. I don't find them helpful, although others do.

I got some of those sounds in my ears from learning the various upper structure triads, and from chord melody. I tend to hear the b13 with the altered 9ths. Lays well on the guitar too, although that's apparently not a good reason to play it.