What is considered the standard way to look at extensions in terms of arpeggios?

[znerken]

I think Christian's analysis is well done.

I'd offer the hopefully unnecessary reminder that it doesn't matter much what you call it. It does matter that you can hear the harmony in the line and find the fingerings so that you can quote it when you want to, and in any key.

A couple of other points.

1. The D in bar two should be a sixteenth tied to another 16th at the start of the next beat. Some argue that it is only essential to show the downbeat of beat 3 in 4/4, but I think it would be a good idea to show the note right on beat 4 in this case. It isn't played (because it's held over from the previous beat), but if you want people to read your writing correctly, I wouldn't write it this way. Obviously, others will disagree.

2. I'd add one small point about the analysis Beat 4 of bar 2 is an ascending Cm9. In fact, the last half of beat 3 is part of it. Now, I don't know what Wes was thinking. Mostly likely, he just felt it. But, the idea of playing D7 in the lower octave and Cm9 in the upper octave may be worth practicing.

It also may be worth remembering that Wes played his single note lines with three fingers - no pinkie. A logical way to play this line with three fingers leads into the usual Cm9 shape at VIIIth fret. And, Wes definitely used that voicing -- you can hear it clearly in Four On Six, to take one obvious example.

3. As you point out playing the MM a half step up is a great way of playing alt. But consider G7alt. The alterations are Db Eb Ab Bb. And, the chord tones left are G, B and F. Now, if you played an Abm add 9 arpeggio, you'd get Ab B Eb and Bb. That's a pretty good outline of the sound of the MM. It has the advantage of making it harder to simply play only whole and half steps, meaning your lines, even just playing the arp, have more space.

Can we construct a similar argument for Emily's other MM? Say she wants to play on G7#11. G B C# F. What I see in there is an A7#5. What if you tried Bbm triad? You get Bb C# F. Not so bad. It suggests a G7#9#11.

You can use a similar approach to find other triads that will provide some, or most, of the sound of those MM's.

I learned this, more or less, from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. There are other commonly used triads to get at upper structures. If I was forced to guess, I'd guess that Wes used them.

I don’t know if Emily was this anal about this in real life, but all the talks she has done about this, she says if the dominant resolve, then altered scale(mm up half step). If the dominant doesn’t resolve, up a fifth mm, which for her is non altered but with that sweet #11.


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[ragman1]

Notice still no b5 ....

Not properly altered :-)

I've had a very good look at about five music theory sites so far, including those dealing specifically with jazz, and I can't find a single one that supports that idea - that without a b5 it's not 'properly altered'.

Not a single one. They all do what you call the 'classical' definition. Which we knew anyway, of course.

Can't help wondering... Do you make this stuff up yourself?

[ragman1]

From 'Bebop & Swing Guitar'. She said in more than one interview that her time sucked at Berklee, hence the move to N.O.

I can't play that. It's been blocked on copyright grounds by Music Sales. But I don't think anyone else has mentioned it. In fact, I think they're all commenting on it! How is this?

[ragman1]

Fwiw, I play it like this. As it came out, x4. It's not contrived. I found myself ignoring the B7 stuff and putting in altered sounds elsewhere.

[christianm77]

I've had a very good look at about five music theory sites so far, including those dealing specifically with jazz, and I can't find a single one that supports that idea - that without a b5 it's not 'properly altered'.

Not a single one. They all do what you call the 'classical' definition. Which we knew anyway, of course.

Can't help wondering... Do you make this stuff up yourself?

Ok, you seem terribly concerned with the terminology.

Is not unambiguously an expression of the altered scale.

The b5 is a key sound of the altered scale. Most of that other shit like the bVIm6 and so on is actually part of the harmonic minor.

So you might think you are playing the altered scale but actually expressing minor key diatonic options. Minor key bop lines owe a lot to that sound world.

Does it matter? Maybe not, but I want to be able
to hear stuff, not just play it.

[christianm77]

I don’t know if Emily was this anal about this in real life, but all the talks she has done about this, she says if the dominant resolve, then altered scale(mm up half step). If the dominant doesn’t resolve, up a fifth mm, which for her is non altered but with that sweet #11.


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I doubt it. She strikes me as the type to get on with it.

I think that’s a solid guideline, succinctly put. I don’t think it covers all eventualities, but you’ll see the truth of it the more music you check out.

You could put a Dmm sound in, then play Abmm and then C for instance. That would sound good. But you don’t want to go straight from Dmm to Abmm because that #11 is a bit awkward somehow.

However IMO after studying bop and Blue Note
era playing and also Barry Harris, I think mainstream music education massively overestimates the extent to which mm harmony is used in that music. You get examples, but mostly stuff which falls out of trad major/minor, modal mix and tritone subs.

For more modern stuff, you are dealing with musicians who learned mm modes at school so of course they use them. So a different dialect results. For instance where a bop musician might have played a whole tone scale a modern musician will play altered or Lydian dominant, and so on.

I haven’t studied Emily in depth, but I would say her playing has this accent.

[christianm77]

Sorry I meant Dmm to C not Dmm to Abmm above

[ragman1]

Ok, you seem terribly concerned with the terminology.

Is not unambiguously an expression of the altered scale.

The b5 is a key sound of the altered scale. Most of that other shit like the bVIm6 and so on is actually part of the harmonic minor.

So you might think you are playing the altered scale but actually expressing minor key diatonic options. Minor key bop lines owe a lot to that sound world.

Does it matter? Maybe not, but I want to be able
to hear stuff, not just play it.

I understand all that, I've said it myself, but if it's a major key, G7 - C, then the harmonic minor's got nothing to do with it.

You might consider, say, a G7#5b9 to be borrowed from the hm but I don't think that's the only option. The #5 and b9 might be notes added to the G7 to produce a more interesting transition to the C. In which case the G7's been altered.

As I said, all the several (serious) sites I saw do classical. There are some brief sections on the tritone business but it's not the prevailing definition.

I'm not being semantic or overly concerned with mere terms, quite the contrary. If what I think of as 'altered' is wrong then it ought to be corrected. I would want it corrected.

[christianm77]

[QUOTE=ragman1;931471]I understand all that, I've said it myself, but if it's a major key, G7 - C, then the harmonic minor's got nothing to do with it. [QUOTE]

You can interchange Cm for C. Parker often does this. Also I prefer ‘minor’ - you will find both the 7 and b7 in lines.

C natural minor relates more to subdominant eg Dm7b5 or Fm7, c harmonic more to the dominant itself, although the two scales are freely intermixed.

Obvious example opening bars of Night and Day. You can do that with any ii-v.

(What is talked about less is the opposite - major ii v instead a minor ii v. Happens more often than you would think from textbooks.)

[QUOTE]
You might consider, say, a G7#5b9 to be borrowed from the hm but I don't think that's the only option. The #5 and b9 might be notes added to the G7 to produce a more interesting transition to the C. In which case the G7's been altered.[QUOTE]

Of course it’s not the only option, but major minor interchange is one of the more common ones you find in the recorded music. Obviously it was common before jazz.

The tritone sub for the diatonic V gives the b5. It also gives a natural 7 which freaks out the theorists, so they invented the altered scale to make the demons go away.

Which is a shame, because that 7 makes for great enclosures, and B/G is something you hear people like McCoy Tyner using ....

As I said, all the several (serious) sites I saw do classical. There are some brief sections on the tritone business but it's not the prevailing definition.

I'm not being semantic or overly concerned with mere terms, quite the contrary. If what I think of as 'altered' is wrong then it ought to be corrected. I would want it corrected.

I use it here to refer to the altered scale.

The thing is on charts you often see ‘alt’ written - in general that’s bad practice. One should write the appropriate extensions unless one means short hand for all the extensions of the altered scale. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that’s Berklee teaching practice?)

OTOH I think people give far more importance to chord symbols than historical players. Sometimes that’s appropriate because the composer is writing that way, but from the POV of standards that hasn’t always been the case. Bebop players played whatever they felt like on dominants and ii v’s, with out relation to the original melody and certainly not with reference to any chord symbol extensions.

This is no surprise as that’s how most kids learn tunes these days, from lead sheets. It was true for me for sure.

(There remains to be written (but probably not read except by me lol) a history of the chord symbol and its use in big band charts, lead sheets, tunedex cards, theory and education. I think the chord symbol is far more representative of the evolution of jazz improvisation over the years than any discussion of scales.... anyway....)

[znerken]

Over here it really fits with D melodic minor. Emily got a lot of her knowledge from Wes, so I can see how she got the idea. You could also argue that this is D major I guess...? Also, the F naturals on the down beats speak against D mm.

[christianm77]

Over here it really fits with D melodic minor. Emily got a lot of her knowledge from Wes, so I can see how she got the idea. You could also argue that this is D major I guess...? Also, the F naturals on the down beats speak against D mm.

Could you write out the notes of D melodic minor and compare to the chart?

[christianm77]

Btw G G# A# B - behold the bebop tetrachord!!!

[znerken]

Could you write out the notes of D melodic minor and compare to the chart?

Well there’s a lot of chromatism in the chart.

D E F G A B C#


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[christianm77]

Well there’s a lot of chromatism in the chart.

D E F G A B C#


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Why not say it’s a Dorian instead?

D E F G A B C

[christianm77]

(I wouldn’t, but I don’t want to give you the answer of what I think it is right away.)

[christianm77]

Try writing out those sharps as flats, btw.

This is a line that sums up my points elsewhere in the thread.

[znerken]

Why not say it’s a Dorian instead?

D E F G A B C

Cause the C# is on important beats.

Oh wait it's not..

[christianm77]

Sorry ignore all of that I’m a flipping idiot. There’s a key signature haha

[christianm77]

Have a look at the half steps and whole steps in the second half of that bar then. I think the scale changes on beat 3 from a G dominant/mix sound

[christianm77]

And what do the notes on the strong beats spell out?

[znerken]

And what do the notes on the strong beats spell out?

G13, which in the way Emily thinks of it would be mm up a fifth.. But it can be mixolydian of course. Emily didn't think of/use modes.

[christianm77]

G13, which in the way Emily thinks of it would be mm up a fifth.. But it can be mixolydian of course. Emily didn't think of/use modes.

Sorry I might have been unclear. What do the notes on 3 + 4 + spell out?

[znerken]

B D F G#, G#dim?

[znerken]

which is a stupid way to approach a D7

[christianm77]

which is a stupid way to approach a D7

Ha I can tell you don’t know many tunes ;-)

Not a unusual move at all - G7 G#o7 D/A (IV #ivo7 I) is classic progression. Very common sub for blues and rhythm changes. Not everything is a V-I you know :-)

Before you move on, what is the intervallic relationship between the diminished chord notes and the notes immediately before them?