What is considered the standard way to look at extensions in terms of arpeggios?

[christianm77]

Where can I read about it? I love Emily's time.

There's a great interview, very sad in some ways in retrospect, in Gene Lees book 'Waiting for Dizzy'

Her great time wasn't natural. She rushed like most other guitar players when starting out. She had to shed it hard, locked herself in a room with a metronome for a year in her words! I think she was pretty obsessive about it.

[christianm77]

She also moved to New Orleans, which I think probably helps too.

[znerken]

There's a great interview, very sad in some ways in retrospect, in Gene Lees book 'Waiting for Dizzy'

Her great time wasn't natural. She rushed like most other guitar players when starting out. She had to shed it hard, locked herself in a room with a metronome for a year in her words! I think she was pretty obsessive about it.

http://www.allthingsemily.com/pdfima...sInterview.pdf

[grahambop]

Where can I read about it? I love Emily's time.

Pretty sure she talks about this on her video. How her time was really bad to start with so she went home and shedded it for ages. I think it's in the bit where she demonstrates using the metronome on 2 and 4.

[znerken]

Pretty sure she talks about this on her video. How her time was really bad to start with so she went home and shedded it for ages. I think it's in the bit where she demonstrates using the metronome on 2 and 4.

She does

[dot75]

From 'Bebop & Swing Guitar'. She said in more than one interview that her time sucked at Berklee, hence the move to N.O.

[ragman1]

The interesting thing is I can’t hear that as Em. If it was in Em I would have no problem with that chord

F#m - B7 - Em

You're bleedin' def, mate, that's wot you are

All right, the F#m is the iii of D and Em is the ii, but you can't say the B7 is just a secondary dom or something. It's a friggin 2-5-1 if ever I saw one.

Also, nota bene, bar 33 in the Wes vid in #16: F#m arp/C mm.

But you can't hear it... What do you hear then? Or, rather, what are you listening to?

That 's the question, innit

[Jonah]

Now that is another topic to touch upon. Many players just play prepracticed licks in melodic minor. The same lick, which is altered if you go up a half and not if you go up a fifth. I tried to play the whole scale, but it sounded crap. That's why I was adviced to learn the I and III arpeggio of the mm.

The dim is also very common in blues, isn't it? Well in all jazz really. Approaching the chord with a half step below. Same as with tritones.


The I and III arpeggios work decent, since they have the 7 as a guide tone right? Or are they less often used with up a 5th melodic minor? I know for certain the VIø7 is often used though. Gives the 9, as we have discussed.

I just think .. this approach is 'something about the sound'.. I mean the vertical sound ( a mass) expressed in horizonthal line... but it is actually quite seldom that we are after that thing while soloing (at least as it seems to me)... sometimes we want just expanded in time harmonic sound and we can express it this way in time... but it seems mostly we seek to express melodically and I am not sure that this actually helps..

I am not criticizing .. just thinking out loud

[christianm77]

F#m - B7 - Em

You're bleedin' def, mate, that's wot you are

All right, the F#m is the iii of D and Em is the ii, but you can't say the B7 is just a secondary dom or something. It's a friggin 2-5-1 if ever I saw one.

Also, nota bene, bar 33 in the Wes vid in #16: F#m arp/C mm.

But you can't hear it... What do you hear then? Or, rather, what are you listening to?

That 's the question, innit

Haha

He outlines F#m(9) Fm(11) Em(9) (no root) in bar 33-34, which I can hear - that's a sideslip thing... Nice idea!

No, what I find tricky is the B7b5 in that position in the key. In D, B7 anything else going to Em FINE.. But b5? Can't quite hear it. Which is odd because as you say it's pretty strongly tonicised and I can hear that sound very strongly in actual minor key. A Night in Tunisia is an obvious example.

I think it's the specific players I've transcribed. Monk probably plays b5 there for all I know.

[ragman1]

what I find tricky is the B7b5 in that position in the key

Where are getting this B7b5 from? My post #21 said B7#9 (F#m7/B7alt).

Quite. Jazz blues chords are often played as, say,

D13 - G9 - D13 - D7alt
G9 - (G#o) - D13 - B7#9 (or F#m7/B7alt)
Em7 - A7 - D13 - A7alt

I'd never have said B7b5. B7#5 maybe, but not b5.

[christianm77]

It's not alt unless theres a b5 :-)

[ragman1]

It's not alt unless theres a b5 :-)

Are you saying that chords like B7#5b9 are not altered chords?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Are you saying that chords like B7#5b9 are not altered chords?

Could be harmonic minor . There's even the thing of adding sharp nine to HM. Maybe more accurate to say that that chord "could be" altered.

Of course, the term " altered " is used inconsistently and ambiguously anyway. When I first learned it, it was more about chords. Any chord with an altered nine or five was "altered". From the standpoint of actual theory, most sharp fives are really flat thirteenths. An actual, full altered scale is simply one thing that MIGHT be played over that flat 13 chord. In that sense, it's not really altered altered until you play the flat five?

Of course none of this has to do with anything regarding what players actually THINK while playing snippets of lines which DON'T address full seven-note pitch collections.

[ragman1]

That's a bit complicated for me. If I see a G7,9, 11 or 13, those are extensions and remain diatonic. When I see #5, b5, #9 b5, #11, b13, etc etc, those notes are non-diatonic and are therefore altered.

Taking up your harmonic minor point, a b9 over a V7 would still be diatonic to me because it's in the parent scale. Not that one couldn't treat it as an altered chord, and we know it frequently is.

Going back to the blues example in D, it's standard to make that B7 a B7#9 because it works. To my mind a 7b5 chord has its own specific quality and I wouldn't play it there.

However, the Em then goes to the A7. There I might very well play Eb7b5 or A7b5 because that might work. I say might because probably an A13 would be better.

But B7b5 as a chord quality before the Em7? I wouldn't do it. At least I don't think so.

(It might be all right depending how it was played. You could have the voice-leading line F# (F#m7) - F (Bb7b5) - E (Em7). Might be all right).

[christianm77]

That's a bit complicated for me. If I see a G7,9, 11 or 13, those are extensions and remain diatonic. When I see #5, b5, #9 b5, #11, b13, etc etc, those notes are non-diatonic and are therefore altered.

Taking up your harmonic minor point, a b9 over a V7 would still be diatonic to me because it's in the parent scale. Not that one couldn't treat it as an altered chord, and we know it frequently is.

Going back to the blues example in D, it's standard to make that B7 a B7#9 because it works. To my mind a 7b5 chord has its own specific quality and I wouldn't play it there.

However, the Em then goes to the A7. There I might very well play Eb7b5 or A7b5 because that might work. I say might because probably an A13 would be better.

But B7b5 as a chord quality before the Em7? I wouldn't do it. At least I don't think so.

It might be all right depending how it was played. You could have the voice-leading line F# - F - E. Might be all right.

Yeah, IMO you are correct in a manner of speaking. It depends how you use the term ‘altered’ - in classical terms of course it just means not diatonic.

In the olden days, you could describe what jazzers played on chord 6 as a mixolydian b13, bit they of course wouldn’t have used that language.

I hear much more b9 in bebop. The use of the #9 is an interesting one because it is not diatonic to the harmonic minor V mode. It seems to get used at least partly for melodic reasons - jumping an aug 2 to the third can sound very awkward, so it works to put the b3 from the Phrygian in there, if you like. You see it again and again. The 1 b9 #9 (3) tetrachord. I call it the bebop tetrachord.

Of course you also find these notes in altered and half whole scales, as well as the tritone dominant (mixolydian) scale.

So I see the V degree of the minor key as a mix of Phrygian and Phrygian dominant, kind of flamenco I guess! Which is also Regs proto altered scale.

The b5 probably comes from whole tone back in Monks time.

The altered scale can be understood as a fusion of the whole tone scale with that bebop tetrachord. The 1/2 whole diminished scale can be understood as two bebop tetrachords a tritone apart.

A7b5 works great as a colour for returning to I but it’s interesting the tonicisation of that II chord only goes so far. At least to my ears.

I think B13b9 works well too.

[ragman1]

I think B13b9 works well too.

Absolutely, forgot that one.

[ragman1]

Christian -

You didn't answer my question in #59 ...

The interesting thing is I can’t hear that as Em. If it was in Em I would have no problem with that chord

Then what do you hear? Serious question, I'd like to know.

[christianm77]

Christian -

You didn't answer my question in #59 ...



Then what do you hear? Serious question, I'd like to know.

Usually B7b9#9b13

[znerken]

That 32th notes at the end of the G7 bar, isn't that like a 16th note triplet? I mean notating stuff in 32th notes aren't very readable.

[ragman1]

Usually B7b9#9b13

Unfortunately the chord in question was the Em. Keep awake.

[christianm77]

Unfortunately the chord in question was the Em. Keep awake.

Well don't bore me to sleep then :-)

[christianm77]

To answer your question, I'm not talking about the Em chord I'm talking about the modulation to the temporary key of Em you would expect from the ii-V-I. I don't hear it as a true modulation, but something in between.

Why do I say this?

If the I heard the progression as being in Em I'd have no problem with a B7b5. It's a common bop alteration in a minor key (think of the melodies of Segment, Tunisia etc), but Parker et al AFAIK don't play it in this context VI7alt --> IIm.

Which is the sort of thing that might actually wake me up because it's quite interesting.

OTOH in Em, probably wouldn't play the movements F#m-->Fm-->Em or F#m-->Fo7-->Em. In D they are commonplace. But also, they are not tonicising chord progressions in the way ii-V-I is, so that's less surprising.

[rpjazzguitar]

b
Attachment 59789

.

I think Christian's analysis is well done.

I'd offer the hopefully unnecessary reminder that it doesn't matter much what you call it. It does matter that you can hear the harmony in the line and find the fingerings so that you can quote it when you want to, and in any key.

A couple of other points.

1. The D in bar two should be a sixteenth tied to another 16th at the start of the next beat. Some argue that it is only essential to show the downbeat of beat 3 in 4/4, but I think it would be a good idea to show the note right on beat 4 in this case. It isn't played (because it's held over from the previous beat), but if you want people to read your writing correctly, I wouldn't write it this way. Obviously, others will disagree.

2. I'd add one small point about the analysis Beat 4 of bar 2 is an ascending Cm9. In fact, the last half of beat 3 is part of it. Now, I don't know what Wes was thinking. Mostly likely, he just felt it. But, the idea of playing D7 in the lower octave and Cm9 in the upper octave may be worth practicing.

It also may be worth remembering that Wes played his single note lines with three fingers - no pinkie. A logical way to play this line with three fingers leads into the usual Cm9 shape at VIIIth fret. And, Wes definitely used that voicing -- you can hear it clearly in Four On Six, to take one obvious example.

3. As you point out playing the MM a half step up is a great way of playing alt. But consider G7alt. The alterations are Db Eb Ab Bb. And, the chord tones left are G, B and F. Now, if you played an Abm add 9 arpeggio, you'd get Ab B Eb and Bb. That's a pretty good outline of the sound of the MM. It has the advantage of making it harder to simply play only whole and half steps, meaning your lines, even just playing the arp, have more space.

Can we construct a similar argument for Emily's other MM? Say she wants to play on G7#11. G B C# F. What I see in there is an A7#5. What if you tried Bbm triad? You get Bb C# F. Not so bad. It suggests a G7#9#11.

You can use a similar approach to find other triads that will provide some, or most, of the sound of those MM's.

I learned this, more or less, from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. There are other commonly used triads to get at upper structures. If I was forced to guess, I'd guess that Wes used them.

[ragman1]

To answer your question, I'm not talking about the Em chord I'm talking about the modulation to the temporary key of Em

Ah! I thought you meant the chord. In that case we're on the same page, as they say. To me, it's just a blues and the B7 is still the I.

Mind you, the piano player thought it was worth putting a b9 in... can't be much good then

[christianm77]

I think Christian's analysis is well done.

I'd offer the hopefully unnecessary reminder that it doesn't matter much what you call it. It does matter that you can hear the harmony in the line and find the fingerings so that you can quote it when you want to, and in any key.

A couple of other points.

1. The D in bar two should be a sixteenth tied to another 16th at the start of the next beat. Some argue that it is only essential to show the downbeat of beat 3 in 4/4, but I think it would be a good idea to show the note right on beat 4 in this case. It isn't played (because it's held over from the previous beat), but if you want people to read your writing correctly, I wouldn't write it this way. Obviously, others will disagree.

2. I'd add one small point about the analysis Beat 4 of bar 2 is an ascending Cm9. In fact, the last half of beat 3 is part of it. Now, I don't know what Wes was thinking. Mostly likely, he just felt it. But, the idea of playing D7 in the lower octave and Cm9 in the upper octave may be worth practicing.

It also may be worth remembering that Wes played his single note lines with three fingers - no pinkie. A logical way to play this line with three fingers leads into the usual Cm9 shape at VIIIth fret. And, Wes definitely used that voicing -- you can hear it clearly in Four On Six, to take one obvious example.

3. As you point out playing the MM a half step up is a great way of playing alt. But consider G7alt. The alterations are Db Eb Ab Bb. And, the chord tones left are G, B and F. Now, if you played an Abm add 9 arpeggio, you'd get Ab B Eb and Bb. That's a pretty good outline of the sound of the MM. It has the advantage of making it harder to simply play only whole and half steps, meaning your lines, even just playing the arp, have more space.

Can we construct a similar argument for Emily's other MM? Say she wants to play on G7#11. G B C# F. What I see in there is an A7#5. What if you tried Bbm triad? You get Bb C# F. Not so bad. It suggests a G7#9#11.

You can use a similar approach to find other triads that will provide some, or most, of the sound of those MM's.

I learned this, more or less, from Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. There are other commonly used triads to get at upper structures. If I was forced to guess, I'd guess that Wes used them.

Minor or min 6 a half step is like the upper structure of an altered dominant chord

Notice still no b5 ....

Not properly altered :-)