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Also that’s quite an interesting one because basically I am accustomed to thinking F#m7b5 B7b9 Em but F#m7 as the ii is a thing even in other minor tonicisation where that m7 isn’t actually diatonic.
For instance - Because I am remarkably stupid, I didn’t get that the second chord of Blues for Alice is Em7 not Em7b5 for ages....
So IIm7 into Im7 is a sound I’ve been interested in actually getting into my playing but have been sidetracked by other things. I really will play around with it.....
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02-03-2019 08:06 PM
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I would understand the first option as not being altered but in fact a different colour of dominant - the minor key (even with #9)
Originally Posted by pauln
That b5 does sound wrong if you play D13 to B7b5, but that is reading the "(or F#m7/B7alt)" as a selection choice between those two individual chords rather than what is intended - subbing the two chords played as a change, that change taking the place of B7#9.
You know when you see "alt" that you have to consider which among the four alts sound good.
D13 to B7(#9, b9, #5) all work.
D13 to B7(b5) does not work.
But
D13 to F#m7 to B7(#9, b9, #5, and b5) all work because the F#m7 to B7alt shift substitution has been assigned a direction* from F#m7 to Em7, and that accommodates the b5 nicely.
* like a you know what
But the b2 of the key (b5 of V7) is a really common melodic alteration in minor key lines- but I always find it sounds a bit wrong here. The iim7 is interesting because it’s a sound I would not use to prepare that Dom.
Of course before Parker most VI7 chords were played with diatonic extensions - usually 9ths. Parker was b9 harmonic minor mode V to death where he bothered to play those chord:
BUT - yeah, maybe. What players use this sound? Bill?
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I think B7b5 can work there with the right voicings, such as: Originally Posted by christianm77
E9, A7b9b13, D, B7b5, E9, A7b9b13, D, B7b5, etc.
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It's not in D at that point, it's in Em. Originally Posted by christianm77
Twitfeatures.
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Another man that understands musical vectors. Originally Posted by ragman1
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The interesting thing is I can’t hear that as Em. If it was in Em I would have no problem with that chord Originally Posted by ragman1
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Keep going, you guys aren't even scratching the surface.
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So I learned a little, and got a little more confused. The way of the guitar :-)
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By the way, is the tab notated in such a complicated approach to try and emulate the swing feel Wes has?
I am trying to notate it out myself, but it's hard to write down his rhythm.
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Wes is playing in double time, so it's all 16ths.
It's perfectly clear notation wise, just a little busy looking
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I hate him for playing in double time. Makes my head hurt. Originally Posted by christianm77
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This is how I notated it, but I guess it's wrong then j
But I feel the author of the other one perhaps tries to emulate the swing feel too much? For example the first three notes. D-C-D. Why aren't they just steady 16th notes?
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Ha, not the only one! There's a story about the guys in the Wrecking Crew (Barney Kessel, Carol Kaye etc) in LA in the 60s when the change over from jazz to rock happened. At first they had real trouble reading the charts that were all in 16ths because they were used to 8ths. Then they realised that it was the same stuff, just with an extra line, so to speak. Originally Posted by znerken
I would encourage anyone to get into reading rhythms in 16th to look at the different permutations of beats and off beats within a bar, and read a whole beat at a time. In 8ths, that would be half a bar (two beats) - so you read in cut time so to speak. This is much better for up tunes.
Wes is basically playing this tune as if was a medium swing - it's just that if it was written out in 8ths it would be more familiar. It's very slow at the basic tempo, about
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Originally Posted by znerken
This is how I notated it, but I guess it's wrong then j
But I feel the author of the other one perhaps tries to emulate the swing feel too much? For example the first three notes. D-C-D. Why aren't they just steady 16th notes?
This vs this
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It's impossible to notate the exact nuance of a great jazz musicians phrasing, but the basics elements like 'is this note on the beat or not?' is perfectly possible to transcribe. Your rhythmic transcription is just not correct. Originally Posted by znerken
This is how I notated it, but I guess it's wrong then j
But I feel the author of the other one perhaps tries to emulate the swing feel too much? For example the first three notes. D-C-D. Why aren't they just steady 16th notes?
Feel the pulse on the 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + , double time, it's not fast, the basic pulse is real SLOW, which is part of the reason it seems a bit crazy to have the solo written out in 16ths, because they feel like 8ths at a medium swing tempo (but it isn't.)
In fact the rhythm section changes to this pulse at around 3:10, which is the sort of thing they tell young jazz students off for lol.
Listen to the first note of that solo - does that note D sit on the beat or not?
Transcribing rhythms is hard because we HAVE to use the ear. While we can put our fingers in the right place and get the notes we can't do this with rhythm. Because of this we have to get good at rhythmic ear training.
The good news is doing this will help your general time feel because you will start listening to rhythms carefully in relation to the pulse and getting into some detail.
You should also work at it from the other end - READ written rhythms. Louis Bellson's Modern Reading Text is excellent for a basic vocabulary of swing rhythms.
Those two things I feel have helped me. Although your perception gets better so you hear problems in your own playing much more, so you get more and more picky.... I hear myself slightly out of time on a recording of a gig and I just shout at everyone for a whole day, kick the cat etc. Happens a lot lol.
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Well said. I shared the wrong image in the first. See my previous post :-) Originally Posted by christianm77
I guess this is the reason why I can’t swing great in my solos. I can’t play anything. That’s Why my solos suck. It’s cause my rhythm doesn’t work. Together with the harmonic stuff of course. It’s so scary to see how little of the arpeggios I know, and actually are able to play and visualize, when I solo. Everything I know just disappears.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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As far as the analysis go (and I do like to put the anal into analysis) I would not bother even labelling that E. Originally Posted by znerken
This is how I notated it, but I guess it's wrong then j
But I feel the author of the other one perhaps tries to emulate the swing feel too much? For example the first three notes. D-C-D. Why aren't they just steady 16th notes?
I don't know if you've done much work on neighbour tones but it's a basic technique for embellishing chord tones in melodies. It's generally accepted that these notes don't really affect the overall harmony. For instance early jazz, Django and so on, is full of them, but the underlying harmony is often very simple - just a G triad or whatever. You can go back to Mozart etc for examples of this stuff.
In general the rule is that upper neighbour tone is diatonic - so in this case an E is upper neighbour of D. This is equally true of Mozart, Bach, Charlie Parker and Wes....
This wiki article is pretty good:
Nonchord tone - Wikipedia
In the terms used by this article, that E would be unaccented upper neighbour tone.
Calling a 9th gives it ... too much importance. If I was writing out a chord chart for that bar I wouldn't bother to write D9 because it's just not in the harmony.
Your use of the term chromaticism is a little off as well... Not wrong G7 IS a chromatic chord in the key of D, and the F is a chromatic note in the key, but more because we tend to think of notes in reference to the chord most oft he time in jazz (I'm a little weird because I like to look at the key as well, but that's me.) As the F is a basic note in the G7 chord, it seems a little odd to describe it as chromatic. The E that sits between the D (5) and the F (b7) oF G7 is best understood as a passing tone.
EDIT - oh I see you have that Bb as well, typical bluesy embellishment for the third of the G7. That's definitely there but I would write that as grace note - this is a accented lower neighbour and indeed chromatic. Very common. I notice the other transcription misses it out, but I definitely hear it when I slow the solo down. Nice one.
Basically, you are doing the right stuff. It's good that you are comparing your work to other sources, and consulting here. Sorry to be dismissive at first, but I am interested in offering more feedback on this sort of thing as it's so much better than the usual stuff that get posted on threads. Kudos.
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Nono, you are nothing but helpful. Originally Posted by christianm77
Well I don't totally agree with the way the two last notes of the other author first bar is notated. I hear them as this.
Hope this looks better?
Also, is it wrong to hear the notes in G7 as triplets? Perhaps 8th note triplets doesn't fit in the rhythm.
Edit. I heard wrong. I hear this:
Last edited by znerken; 02-04-2019 at 07:23 AM.
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This is an important realisation to have. Just be aware that this feeling never goes away lol. Originally Posted by znerken
It's like anything, you have to shed it.
What goes on in the practice room takes a while to show up on the band stand. That's normal.
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Re: first bar - Nope, the other author is more accurate... Originally Posted by znerken
Nono, you are nothing but helpful.
Well I don't totally agree with the way the two last notes of the other author first bar is notated. I hear them as this.
Hope this looks better?
Also, is it wrong to hear the notes in G7 as triplets? Perhaps 8th note triplets doesn't fit in the rhythm.
Edit. I heard wrong. I hear this:
Also Wes leans into the swing on those last two notes which is why he's written 'behind' - as they are upbeats, the more you play them behind, the more swing there is. But you would be forgiven for not adding in that detail. TBH I find that type of thing annoying unless it's a really obvious change, subtle nuances are best left to the ear IMO. Other notes Wes places slightly ahead of the beat, and so on.
A good exercise is to focus on what notes lie on the beat first, and slot in the other notes around them.
Yep the second one is more accurate.... I think that Bb is really small note though... Grace note is what I would expect to see there.
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based on what I have learned from this thread. It's okay to say that this is A melodic minor, with some passing notes?
There is a #11 on the 2nd beat in bar two, which is a important tone.
There is also a lot of extensions, so saying it's a D7 arpeggio, or a substitution would be wrong. On a second note, all those C# would imply D major.
By the way, the reason I have so much wrong in terms of notating the rhythm, is that I try to transcribe the song in tempo. I just had to give up on that. Barry Greene says it's dumb to slow down, but for notating rhythm I have to. I try to learn most of it by not slowing down, but I have to when there is grace notes that are hard to hear.Last edited by znerken; 02-04-2019 at 07:55 AM.
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You might find some variation in interpretation.
So the phrase starts with a D6 arpeggio. You then kind of have a descending D mix/dominant scale, that gets rhythmically messed around with by repeating the D, that leads us on to the E on a rhythmic push and then into that A minor triad.
I think you are along the right lines in thinking A minor - this is clearly outlined in bar 2 of the phrase. The relationship A minor to D7 (ii to V) is very important in jazz and has been called variously important minor, companion minor and so on.
For me invoking the melodic minor here (presumably because of the G#?) misses the point of the phrase a little bit. I don't think Wes used melodic minor consciously in the same way we do today, but that being as it may, we have a very typical minor line cliche here
A-G#-G-F# (the F is kind of a LNT for the F# as the F# ends up strongly on the beat.)
You know Stairway don't you? Stairway's intro is a Am - D7 line (a II V lick.) Page probably knew this type of movement from his childhood - take the song 'Cry me A River' or 'My Funny Valentine' and you'll hear this movement.
So I would describe this phrase as just A minor. It's just a minor phrase with some elements of different minor scales. Wes freely mixes up dorian and melodic minor in many of his lines.
Later on we have this diminished arpeggio F#-A-C-Eb (the D is non-chord tone, passing tone in this case) which actually a way of linking into the next chord, G7. So this chord really comes from D7b9. Scale wise, it could get complicated lol so we'll overlook that... Just view it as a cheap and cheerful way of linking into a target chord. The relationship F#o7 --> G7 should be easy to remember - any target chord can preceded with a diminished seventh a half step below.
I teach my students diminished connections ASAP, because it's such a common device.
Now that G should be an F, I think - check it? This is #9 on the D7, a very common note to have after a b9, or before it... Listen out for b9/#9 pairs in bop phrases they are EVERYWHERE. Scalically, it could also get complicated, so let's overlook it - could be half-whole, altered, tritone sub. I just like to think of this little run - 1-b9-#9-(3) on the dom7 as a little motif or device...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
This one?
The reason for the whole A melodic minor thing is that Emily Remler has such a easy way of thinking of this. She either plays the melodic minor up a half step, or up a fifth. She even takes it down to such simplicity, that as long as the dominant resolves, she will play up a half(altered scale).
Now that is another topic to touch upon. Many players just play prepracticed licks in melodic minor. The same lick, which is altered if you go up a half and not if you go up a fifth. I tried to play the whole scale, but it sounded crap. That's why I was adviced to learn the I and III arpeggio of the mm.
The dim is also very common in blues, isn't it? Well in all jazz really. Approaching the chord with a half step below. Same as with tritones.
The I and III arpeggios work decent, since they have the 7 as a guide tone right? Or are they less often used with up a 5th melodic minor? I know for certain the VIø7 is often used though. Gives the 9, as we have discussed.
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Yeah, sorry forgot to mention the F, did edit, but too late lol. Originally Posted by znerken
I hear it as a lower neighbour tone, non chord tone (i.e. rhythmic filler), the F# is on the beat and the starts that ascending arpeggio. Good way to check - playing the line with an unpitched ghost note in there instead and see if it radically changes the effect of the line.
Wes plays a lot of ghost notes - half articulated or not quite audible notes BTW... That's why transcriptions vary. The main thing is the important notes are heard and everything else is rhythmic filler.
Sure A melodic minor - that's one way of saying it it, but I think that understanding might obscure the fact you can use really mix up Dorian and Melodic Minor. Wes was mixing it up, and Emily would have done that habitually too I suspect (haven't transcribed her to say for sure.) So I just say 'A minor.' It's important to know you can put an F# (major 6th) in there, and that's a feature of both the melodic minor and dorian mode. The only difference is G and G#, and you can see we have both and they are clearly heard, accented sounds.
Emily was at Berklee, so it's likely she used contemporary Chord Scale Theory terms, like melodic minor as a roadmap.
(BTW read what she has to say about working on her time, if you want to feel less bad lol.)
My understanding comes from Barry Harris, who recorded with Wes, but I doubt Wes used his terms! Often we are using differing terms for similar concepts. (But sometimes the interpretation is substantively different.) Barry's term is important minor - Am on D7 say, and tritone's minor - Ebm on D7. Same thing REALLY.
He doesn't teach melodic minor much. Like Wes his lines include elements of different minor scales on dominants. It's a bit looser than just 'melodic minor'
But that's quibbling really. The important thing is you hear that A-G#-G-F# line.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Where can I read about it? I love Emily's time.
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