Mastering Jazz Blues gives you all the tools you need

[unknownguitarplayer]

When I was young, a lot of the wiser Detroit jazz elders would say things along the lines of "If you can play blues and rhythm you can play anything". That let to a lot of discussion and argument among us young'uns that was very much along the lines of this thread. Many decades (and most of those elders) have passed, but over the years I am "maybe" just starting to understand the deeper message...maybe.

Learning blues/RC meant learning every possible variation, in every key, tempo and nook and cranny of your instrument.

RC meant stacking chords forever, Coltrane style, knowing a zillion heads, every conceivable bridge variation and again, every tempo, key and nook and cranny.

Part of that statement was directed toward young players who often see jazz as an obstacle course of changes, and end up playing in one or 2 chord chunks. Playing blues sets you off in the direction of playing in longer chunks, say, an entire chorus and thinking more expressively.

There was a strong component of hearing the blues where it wasn't always obvious. They would hear a Wayne Shorter tune that looked to be a maze of changes, or something by the Miles quintet, where the changes were sketchy at best, and mutter "it's a blues", and then proceed to kill, nailing every change along the way.

I'm pretty sure the folks I'm talking about didn't mean the statement literally, but if you did what they said, it got you pretty damn far (Kenny Garrett, James Carter and Geri Allen all came up under the folks I'm thinking of).

[rintincop]

Decades of copying Horace Silver, Wynton Kelly, Jimmy Smith and Gene Harris jazz blues didn’t prepare me for this type of rhythm and this type of Latin Calypso jazz vocabulary.

[rintincop]

[Reg]

Rhythmic style specific feels are what they are.... you either have good time and understand how to create and breakdown (subdivide) patterns and lock them in... within perception of a cycle. And how to pull and push that feel to create live music within larger form. Or you don't... That also shows up playing jazz obviously.

I personally don't believe transcribing is going to give someone rhythmic performance skills.... without learning what rhythm is and how rhythmic concepts work within styles.

Most Blues and rock styles are pretty vanilla, more like classical time. Might need to play R&B and Funk... The rhythmic thing is a big problem with many players... amateurs and pros. If players don't work on rhythmic technique and skills.... how would the skill happen.

Rintincop.... thanks for posting more Monty.... love them all, throw in some Eliane Elias etc... and I'm in heaven.

I posted his vids for showing how blues harmonic concepts are big part of playing in a jazz style.... part of the melodic and harmonic language.... the rhythmic thing is another thing. When I was a kid... I understood that time was the most important thing when performing.... harmonic, melodic articulations etc... came after. Can't fake time.

I have time and feel from working on rhythmic understandings.... understanding how time works. And obviously playing. I did most of that work when I was a kid.... it hasn't changed that much. (sight reading skills... might be part of the picture also)

Yea you need all you can get.... I thought Prince's post was more about the melodic and the implied harmonic concepts from.

[christianm77]

Decades of copying Horace Silver, Wynton Kelly, Jimmy Smith and Gene Harris jazz blues didn’t prepare me for this type of rhythm and this type of Latin Calypso jazz vocabulary.

Sorry, were you expecting it to?

[Philco]

[MarkRhodes]

Loved this trio. The whole album this is from is good.

[ragman1]

So, apart from posting all our favorite videos off YouTube, have we decided whether playing jazz blues is the secret of playing standards?

Because I doubt that it is. It'll help, because everything we do helps, but whether it's the magic formula for success is... what shall we say...unproven :-)

[bobby d]

Although Blues is the basis of Jazz, there's also an element of Classical. Some Jazz compositions have very little to do with Bebop, Jazz Blues etc. Also most Bossa Nova has chord progressions that are way different than Jazz Blues.

As others have said, a complete study of Jazz Blues covers a lot, probably most, but not all. Many Jazz standards weren't composed for Jazz musicians. Songs for Broadway and movies were covered by Jazz musicians because they felt a need to play songs that were popular. Does Stella by Starlight sound bluesy at all?

[Reg]

That would depend on what one is able to understand....

Music can be organized sound constructed with sound elements,

For most when talking and trying to understand music... jazz music. They use elements of .

Rhythm
Melody
Harmony

I generally use analysis...(common practice musical analysis with common practice musical terminology), for trying to understand what organizational use of musical elements are within and how used in a piece of music. I've made 1000's of them, 10's of 1000's.
Every time I play, arrange, listen,compose etc... a piece of music, I make an analysis of some type.

From analysis... it's obvious that musical characteristics from JazzBlues...

"... what, with the IV7 , maj 2-5's, min 2-5's, all kinds of turnarounds and cycling , maj and or min Blues "planeing" as well as all the alt options for the Dom chords... it's all there. "

Are very common practice techniques used when performing Jazz. Not everything.... but more than enough to create a Jazz sound when performing.

I am implying a very vanilla and not complex result, melodically and harmonically...and obviously... Rhythmic elements would still be needed.

The result, depending on one's technical skills on their instrument, would sound like jazz.

As I've posted....to be become somewhat modern, sound like the last 60 or so years.... becoming aware of Modal concepts and harmonic and melodic use of MM would help.

[Reg]

Although Blues is the basis of Jazz, there's also an element of Classical. Some Jazz compositions have very little to do with Bebop, Jazz Blues etc. Also most Bossa Nova has chord progressions that are way different than Jazz Blues.

As others have said, a complete study of Jazz Blues covers a lot, probably most, but not all. Many Jazz standards weren't composed for Jazz musicians. Songs for Broadway and movies were covered by Jazz musicians because they felt a need to play songs that were popular. Does Stella by Starlight sound bluesy at all?

Great post... and I agree... but I've played Stella many time with many of the Blue characteristic that Prince mentioned.... vamp on I, bVII ,(Bb69 Ab13) for a tag at end for just a few bars...)Killer Joe feel), then play through tune.... almost every 2 and 4 bar phrase of the tune has Blue note and blues harmony possibilities.

[Tal_175]

Although Blues is the basis of Jazz,

This seems to be a very common assertion. But it doesn't seem to be historically very accurate. Delta blues (the origin of blues as we know it, I think) was largely unknown in New Orleans during the birth of Jazz. It became one of the influences along with ragtime, march music, classical etc. but it was by no means a central force in the birth of Jazz musically to be called "the basis".
I'm not a music historian by any stretch. This is my impression based on the information out there, what I read, documentaries I watched. So feel free to correct me with facts if I'm wrong.
Also to be honest I don't hear blues to be central to a lot of jazz either, other than occasional melodic or harmonic references. Of course aside from tunes that are jazz blues.

[Tal_175]

"... what, with the IV7 , maj 2-5's, min 2-5's, all kinds of turnarounds and cycling , maj and or min Blues "planeing" as well as all the alt options for the Dom chords... it's all there. "

Yes but these are not blues influences on jazz. To the contrary, these are jazz influences on blues. Is that not right?

[rintincop]

This seems to be a very common assertion. But it doesn't seem to be historically very accurate. Delta blues (the origin of the blues as we know it, I think) was largely unknown in New Orleans during the birth of Jazz. It became one of the influences along with ragtime, march music, classical etc. but it was by no means a central force in the birth of Jazz musically to be called "the basis".
I'm not a music historian by any stretch. This is my impression based on the information out there, what I read, documentaries I watched. So feel free to correct me with facts if I'm wrong.
Also to be honest I don't hear blues to be central to a lot of jazz either, other than occasional melodic or harmonic references. Of course aside from tunes that are jazz blues.

Excellent point. I would also add the Latin Tinge from Cuba to the New Orleans melting pot. The musicians traveled by ferry back and forth to gigs. Tresillo became the Charleston.

[christianm77]

Although Blues is the basis of Jazz, there's also an element of Classical. Some Jazz compositions have very little to do with Bebop, Jazz Blues etc. Also most Bossa Nova has chord progressions that are way different than Jazz Blues.

As others have said, a complete study of Jazz Blues covers a lot, probably most, but not all. Many Jazz standards weren't composed for Jazz musicians. Songs for Broadway and movies were covered by Jazz musicians because they felt a need to play songs that were popular. Does Stella by Starlight sound bluesy at all?

I think that's a good point. Stella by Starlight is in its original form rather Rachmaninoff in style.

A good example of the blues form being used in Bossa Nova, would be the A section of Wave.

TBH Jobim's harmony is drawing a lot from pre-war harmony. I think people don't get the connection. There's more to it than that, but if you look at Django's Tears and compare to Jobim's Insensatez, very interesting. Jobim's melody lines often reference the blues though.

Speaking of Django, there's a player whose native musical environment included gypsy music, French popular music and even classical. Jazz came ... later. It's easy to contrast him with Charlie Christian who seems much more rooted in the blues, unsurprisingly. This is my favourite Django blues, BTW, an extended form - he solos on the blues changes. Quite a different vibe, right?

[christianm77]

This seems to be a very common assertion. But it doesn't seem to be historically very accurate. Delta blues (the origin of blues as we know it, I think) was largely unknown in New Orleans during the birth of Jazz. It became one of the influences along with ragtime, march music, classical etc. but it was by no means a central force in the birth of Jazz musically to be called "the basis".
I'm not a music historian by any stretch. This is my impression based on the information out there, what I read, documentaries I watched. So feel free to correct me with facts if I'm wrong.
Also to be honest I don't hear blues to be central to a lot of jazz either, other than occasional melodic or harmonic references. Of course aside from tunes that are jazz blues.

Yeah I see it as a real mix. However - dunno. I feel people are often concerned with these sorts of labels.

Also think people imagine acoustic blues to be a purist form, but, people have always mixed it up.

Furthermore, I do feel people's idea of what the blues is on one hand and what jazz is on the other is shaped by the more recent forms.

There's a lot more overlap in the early days, jazz was more bluesy and blues was more jazzy (in the sense of traditional jazz, or jug bands)... But it was a spectrum. Still is actually.

Historical points: Jazz may have been born in New Orleans, but much of what we think of as classic NOLA jazz - King Oliver, Johnny Dodds, Louis, Kid Ory etc - was recorded in Chicago.

I also feel the Ken Burns documentary (necessarily) oversimplified things by focussing only on NOLA in the early days. There was a lot of stuff going on in other places, and a lot of cross-pollination.

Anyway, this thread does seem like everyone has invented their own idea of what the thread is about and is vigorously debating past each other. I think I'm a lot more prosaic than most, I'm just talking about learning to navigate changes lol.

[Reg]

Yes but these are not blues influences on jazz. To the contrary, these are jazz influences on blues. Is that not right?

Sure they could be if you were playing a blues tune. But I believe we are trying to determine if musical elements of blues are part of musical elements we need to play in a jazz style.

And prince's comments...

True or False? Mastering Jazz Blues gives you all the tools you need for most Jazz...

... what, with the IV7 , maj 2-5's, min 2-5's, all kinds of turnarounds and cycling , maj and or min Blues "planeing" as well as all the alt options for the Dom chords... it's all there.

... all example of harmonic movements... basically all Sub Dominant chord movement. Yes I know Dominant movement can be created with most of those chord patterns also.... but when playing blues in a Jazz style generally most of those chord movements or chord patterns are used to expand space, not dominant movement back to I. And also generally they are also used to frame Blue Notes or create Blue note patterns with expanded harmonic movement ... simple version.... create more harmonic relationships with Blue Notes for improv.

So the results of Prince's examples are using some of the very strong musical elements of Blues ... Obviously Blue Notes and The IV chord or the Sub Dominant Chordal or harmonic area of Playing Blues.

Again ... not everything.... but generally audiences get bored listening to arpeggio, chord tones and melody embellishment chasers without MORE.