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I always thought of blues and ‘rhythm changes’ as two fundamental rites of passage, both need to be mastered.
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12-26-2018 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Toddep
Name a standard tune that Jazz Blues can't prepare you for.
Or are you thinking of Modal, or post Bop (shorter/tyner) type tunes? Modern non functional harmony based tunes?
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Or is there little or no difference, regardless of one's approach? I mean, there are "bluesy" RC players, and then there are some decidedly "unbluesy" Jazz Blues players .... right?
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Interesting thread, following.
Isn't blues kind of easy access to learning tonic, subdominant and dominant functions (cadences) to begin with? At least that's how I'm seeing it with my study. I started with the bare bones changes, then explored different ways of navigating these core functions, kind of building up different ways to play the same core thing. With substitutions, I think I'm getting a lot of useful tools that can be applied to standards as well.
Others here will be much more informed than me though - I haven't enough standards under my belt to be considered a real player YET. Working towards it though, with blues as my foundation. Probably spent/spending too much time with blues though? Any advice would be appreciated if there's a better route to become a well rounded 'professional'.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Even a simple 12-bar blues is very susceptible to jazz approaches such as substitution and voice-leading (in fact, a I7-IV7-V7 has its voice-leading built-in). Once you start adding extended and altered chords, your rocker's pentatonic minor is going to sound pretty dumb by its lonesome.Last edited by Thumpalumpacus; 12-28-2018 at 12:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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"I try to keep it simple, bluesy, and melodic." I like that approach.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Any standard that is not a blues
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Originally Posted by Toddep
Last edited by princeplanet; 12-26-2018 at 02:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by grahambop
The A section is basically reduced to:
Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |
Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7 |
Bb - Bb major blues
F7 - Bb major or minor blues
Eb7 - Bb minor blues
The bridge is just cycling, which is a breeze for the complex Jazz Blues player.
Upon giving my own question some thought, Im thinking that if you're adept at basic functional harmony, then you can handle any kind of Dominant to Tonic movement (including it's usual subs) in both Major and Minor tonalities. Most tunes, blues or otherwise are mainly just Dom to Tonic movements in various key areas. What makes each tune unique might only be an idiosyncratic progression or two involving an unusual appearance of a chord (II7, IV7, bVII7, iv, etc ).
Of course, you still have to memorise the form of each tune (although some 32 bar forms can be easier than Jazz Blues' 12 bars), but if you're "making the changes" then a complex Jazz Blues should keep you on your toes as much as most standards, despite the short form.
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Originally Posted by Toddep
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
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One thing I think that’s great about jazz blues is that you can relate common jazz chord movements to the 3 chord functions.
Since the blues is familiar to most guitarists it’s a great point of familiarity which you don’t get so much with early to mid century popular songs that the average guitar player has never played.
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Christmas songs are good too lol
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Originally Posted by Toddep
The blues tunes are tunes too....
Body and Soul is a very bluesy standard wouldn’t you agree? Compared with maybe Darn That Dream. There plenty of references to the blues in the melody.
I think people get hung up on the form of the blues.
But blues is also a mood.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
The call and response in blues has very focused moods, IMHO. Could be happy, sad, whiney, relieved, jealous, sexy, etc., and a combination of two, but probably not three. If three, probably not four. Blues has a fence around it so to speak. When I think of jazz blues I think of some of the standards that have been mentioned, but the call and response is much more complex. Although I can't think of an example at the moment, I would think that you could do a jazz blues that searches for the calls and responses and outlines them without actually incorporating any resolved calls and responses. In that case the mood of the song may leave the listener wondering. That doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing. It may mean that the effects of the song last longer than the visceral emotions of what a straight blues may last. Not near as literal as a straight 8 or 12 bar blues.
I guess if you want to bottom line it: Blues would be instant gratification and jazz blues would be delayed satisfaction. Does any of this make sense, or am I full of it?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
More pro-level blues players who've maybe played some jump blues, or a little jazz, or have backed singers who do a variety of material, sure. But RC or any other standard with your basic SRV wannabe sort of player is usually a trainwreck, at least in my experience.
John
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Mood, on the other hand ... a lot of people think of blues as sad or commiserating, but it's also about my sweet little angel, or getting ready to cut someone, or headin' on down the road. There are so many different moods to the blues, but in the end for me it's the umami-flavor of music, that perfect balance between savory and sweet, happy and sad, angry and regretful.
I started out playing rock, and only got into the blues chasing down the influences of influences. But in that process, I got to hear guys like T-Bone and Kenny Burrell and Grant Green, who each in their own way to my ears really bridged the gap of blues and jazz, so that my rock-tuned ears delving into jazz had a hook they could hold onto. I wanted to learn jazz because I got into Steely Dan ... but my first hooks into jazz came from listening to jazzy blues and bluesy jazz, and hearing that I saw a door that could pass from one world to the next.
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Love this.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by Tal_175; 12-26-2018 at 10:47 PM.
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If we could learn rhythm changes by playing blues we wouldn't need rhythm changes :-)
Try these two. The first Hubbard one has no blues sounds in it at all. It may as well be straight-ahead jazz. The second one is full of blues sounds but you'd never learn to play a standard by playing like that.
The premise of this question is flawed. So the basic answer is: false.
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Originally Posted by John A.
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