The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    That is not what I would ask them or assume. But a contemporary jazz guitarist could build on what they did rather than spending years learning the jazz guitar of the 1950s, which is what 'mainstream' seems to mean in this thread.
    Well it's quite funny and interesting how sketchy for instance Scott Henderson seems about jazz history in general ('Jim Hall wrote tunes in the 50s? I though nobody in jazz wrote compositions back then?'). He likes what he likes, and he's certainly not a buff.

    And even though he probably can play a bit of bop (says he can) it sounds like the older musicians he worked with, like Zawinul, were keen to get away from that. (Like Johnny MacLaughlin not being the super fluent bopper George Benson was endeared him to Miles - Miles wanted the rock/blues/r&b thing....)

    So, I'm going to sit here and give the Ken Burns vibe on jazz guitar so much because - obv - Scott is great.

    The only golden rules are; listen to what you love and study the fuck out of it. Don't do things by half. Don't approximate. Don't expect easy solutions. Don't attempt to play from theory, but use theory to understand what you hear.

    And also, don't think learning jazz is simply copying - you have to assimilate and internalise.

    Play lots of gigs with good players.

    GO.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Mmm, well, for me, when I hear contemporary Jazz players I tend to like the ones that seem to have absorbed some of that tradition. Without it I hear rock, blues, classical, atonal, folk, country, ethnic /world etc etc - in other words anything but Jazz! ... I mean, can Holdsworth really be considered a Jazz guitarist? Sheesh, some people don't even consider George Benson a Jazz guitarist!
    Allan learned the tradition of jazz guitar, he learned Charlie Christian and Django by ear, Jimmy Raney, Parker, Coltrane. So whatever he became, the inputs included a lot of old as well as newer jazz.

    I think Allans playing has been fetishised to such a point by the pointy headstock brigade it's easy to lose track of what an original and imaginative linear improvisor he was. To me, he's the next step out from Jimmy Raney. Well maybe a couple of steps... Obviously didn't play a lot of swing feel, but when he does swing in 8ths like on 16 Men of Tain - well I do hear that feel...

    Despite my last post, my hunch is that the really good players have checked out at least bits of the tradition. They might not have loads of Django down, but they will have checked out a solo, for instance.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-22-2018 at 01:59 PM.

  4. #53

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    So Personally... I think it's not that complicated to play a melodic line and make it sound like Jazz.

    I mean who isn't playing BS Christmas Songs at some of their Jazz Gigs this time of year. Really who isn't playing 50 to 60 year old movie, show or pop tunes, (standards) and... again playing them in a Jazz style.

    I've posted many times, I think in some of my first posts on this site... I defined what creates a Jazz Style.

    When I choose to play a blues in a Jazz Style.... it has characteristics from Jazz. Not rock or blues.

    Jazz is a style.... which means it has characteristic harmony, melodic, rhythmic, articulations, use of Form, the spacial thing... for some of you.... embellishments.... My point is when you compose or arrange a segment of music... most of those characteristics can be notated and the results will be in a jazz style. depending on who or what you composing or arranging for... the results might be a little Vanilla sounding... but that is usually from lack of skills on your instrument, not the notation.

    If you choose to believe it comes from pounding the same shit over and over.... yes it will take a life time.

  5. #54

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    Hey I like Christmas songs! Well the old ones, Irving Berlin and all that stuff

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    But you are assuming the individual knows the major scale already and is coming from that direction.

    The OP is a PENTATONIC player. That's what he knows and his frame of reference will most likely always be pentatonics first.
    Sometimes it’s helpful to discover that one’s previous frame of reference is a barrier, and to try to adopt or at least explore another frame of reference. That’s been my own experience. I think the OP needs to consider that option.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    But you are assuming the individual knows the major scale already and is coming from that direction. The OP is a PENTATONIC player. That's what he knows and his frame of reference will most likely always be pentatonics first.
    Hey fellow players, you've given me a ton of food for thought and it's much appreciated. Just so you know a little bit about me I've been playing jazz guitar for years, but it's mostly rhythm guitar. I also had a jazz quintet back in 2005-2008. In fact, part of the reason I quit was because I was never satisfied with my guitar solos, so I would count on our piano player to take the solos most of the time. I mean, I soloed but I never liked the way it sounded. Also, although I bought 3 Robert Conti books and DVD's, I've only completed one. I love jazz guitar, mainly birth of the cool jazz 50's and 60's but many jazz standards written before and afterwards as well. In response to the above quote, for the most part, I know my scales, major and minor, I'm fine with those. My biggest problem is focusing and playing melody lines, it seems I'm always working on something more important. Like right now, I'm learning how to read music. When I originally started playing guitar I was in high school and there were a few really good lead guitarist. So, since I wasn't a good lead player and my music at the time was Rock, I still wanted to play with the best guitarists I could find so I picked up a Mickey Baker and and played the hell out of it until I got really good at backing up the monster players. Now I'm retired, oh and just so I'm clear, I haven't played steadily for all those years. I was an off and on player, mostly off until around 2003. With that said, I have learned some chord melody arrangements from Steve Crowell books thinking it would make me better at playing solos, it didn't but his books and study material is really good stuff. So, here's my question today. I know I gotta focus on learning arpeggios and transcribing by ear and everything in-between. Especially trying to play melody lines, which I seldom do. Is there a good arpeggio book like the one I linked below? I'm asking first because I have a ton of guitar books, some I never even opened yet. I met Mimi Fox a few years ago, hell of a player and a really nice lady. Also, someone else mentioned her in this thread, I think. Or is there a better book? Anyone?

    Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards, Mimi Fox eBook+Online Audio - Mel Bay Publications, Inc. : Mel Bay

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by fathand
    My biggest problem is focusing and playing melody lines, it seems I'm always working on something more important.
    Then maybe practice MOSTLY melodies until you are better at hearing them and playing them. By ear.

    I think that is the most important thing, it will teach harmony well if you put them with chords etc as well, but starting with the melody is good.

    Something I started doing myself a couple of years back when I realised how bad at it I was.

    The melody is the most important backbone for improvisation.

    Also - transcription. Great - BUT - I have taught too many young guys who can play Wes solos all the way through but don't know any tunes. They like to play this stuff on YouTube to impress their mates. I don't see this as a skill that helps with their musical employment prospects on one hand or general ability to play jazz on the other.

    You can learn loads of language just by paying close attention to the melodic line and how it works over the chords. And by learning melodies by ear (some of them are hard too) you do the transcription bit.

    Finally, arpeggios and scales are just tidied up melodies. Makes sense to relate them to melodies.

  9. #58

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    Open the books.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Open the books.
    Nah. Just buy them and end up putting them in storage. That's what I do.

    I haven't even got around to opening the Barry DVD's. Too much stuff to practice!

  11. #60

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    I borrow instruction books from Auckland City Library, which has a very good selection. I lose nothing if a book does not work for me.

  12. #61

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    Do you know what a melody or good melodic line is? Really... what (musically), makes a good melodic line... good improv.

    You've played long enough to not have to copy other players lines and replay them etc.. At some point you need to understand what or why a melodic line sounds good.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Do you know what a melody or good melodic line is? Really... what (musically), makes a good melodic line... good improv.

    You've played long enough to not have to copy other players lines and replay them etc.. At some point you need to understand what or why a melodic line sounds good.
    At some point you have to trust your ears.

  14. #63

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    When inspired, you could suddenly outperform yourself 10x. This can happen and more likely in a demanding situation (but not not necessarily). But it is a hard job (or a fun one if you like practicing in general) to get to level that you always sound good at least. Sound good, play convincingly and make sense with the solo in any situation - that's actually what the top players do as far as I know.

    For example, when learned the tunes while driving the car - at first I was only after "singing" the right notes. Eventually it was getting in my nerves. I don't like to sing so it kinda sounded stupid.. Right notes but stupid. Wasn't thrilled about it although I was learning, so it was bearable at least. Luckily I had the idea to practice sing a solo that "means" something. This changed the mindset completely. It was interesting again. Lots of failures but still, exciting in a way.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    At some point you have to trust your ears.
    I absolutely agree, that's my biggest weakness!! The reason I started this thread in the first place was because I met another player and we working on Blue Bossa and I played my regular solo which is basically the melody line with some chromatic notes added for flavor. Not bad but no cigar! Then he takes his solo and does the same thing except his sounded way better. So, I had to analyze why his sounded better, the answer was he added flurries of jazzy sounding notes, that's what separates me from sounding good is learning how and when to add the flurries. That's why I asked, "Is there anything on youtube that someone can direct me to that covers the flurries? I didn't say flurries in the beginning, I think I said mixolydian and melodic minor but what I meant was the "flurries". In a nutshell that's where I'm at! I hear all these players and their solos always have flurries. Like Reg, I think it's the same one linked below. He flurries like crazy on youtube and it sounds badass and jazzy! That's where I'm at, realize this but I don't even know arpeggios! And I don't care what anyone says, learning arpeggios is not fun at all and that's why I asked about the book by Mimi Fox or any other book that makes learning arpeggios more pleasant. Anyone know of a book that teaches arpeggios within standards?

    Guitar Arpeggio Studies on Jazz Standards, Mimi Fox - Book + Web Audio




    Last edited by fathand; 12-25-2018 at 03:29 PM.

  16. #65

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    Sounds like you need language and vocabulary

  17. #66

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    Amazon.com: Jazz Riffs For Guitar (Great Riffs) (9780895249432): Yoichi Arakawa: Books

    Hm.. never went through this but it looks.... "fun".. maybe? Surely on topic


    Btw Joe Pass said somewhere out loud that he never plays just arps plainly. No one really does... So however you practice those and not having fun - also later you need another step or two to apply them in "real world". Mix them up with other stuff from the beginning. Less trouble later. More fun too.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sounds like you need language and vocabulary
    Yes, TY for reminding me that I'm human and I make mistakes. It takes me awhile sometimes, that's all.

  19. #68

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    By flurries I guess you mean those fast little runs of 5-8 notes or so.

    Reg can advise you as to how he specifically does this.

    However, in lieu of him responding you can take a scale and practice descending/ascending in a small 5-note grouping.

    da-da-da-da-da...da-da-da-da-da (5-notes) in 8th notes and then 16th notes.

    Practising these small groupings will help you increase your speed.

    Then play a scale from root to root up and down.

    Use a metronome.

    Then use one of these "flurries" in your improvising.

    Transcribe a jazz solo passage/lick you like and learn it, not so much that you will play it in your improvisation but to get your ears around jazz phrasing.

    Record yourself improvising over a tune or 2-5-1's so you can get feedback. Improvise a little everyday record yourself and listen. You'll get better over time if you keep doing it.

    Be sure to listen to a jazz master improvise over the same tune you are practising. Imitate him.

    There are also licks in free lessons on this website you can practice. Take advantage of it.

    10 II V I Jazz Guitar Licks



  20. #69

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    Can you scat sing the "flurries" you're talking about? If you can, focus on getting them onto the guitar.

    If not, I'd suggest finding an example of one, slow it down using Transcribe or Amazing Slow Downer, learn to play it. Figure out the way it relates to the harmony and then see if you can place it in a different tune to get the sound you want.

    Along the way, consider the possibility that it wasn't the flurries to begin with, it was the time feel. I mention it because simple lines can sound great and one of the things that separates a good solo from a poor one is time feel.

    One other point. I have a bunch of lick books that I've played through. I'm pretty sure that not a single one of them ever got into my spontaneous playing. What has worked though, is learning a lick face-to-face from another player. Also, taking some staff paper and writing out my own. I have several licks that I developed that way and still use.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Sometimes it’s helpful to discover that one’s previous frame of reference is a barrier, and to try to adopt or at least explore another frame of reference. That’s been my own experience. I think the OP needs to consider that option.
    ... and hopefully integrate them! That's where the new stuff comes from.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Then maybe practice MOSTLY melodies until you are better at hearing them and playing them. By ear.
    Preach it. The best learning comes from doing ... time, and time again.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    What has worked though, is learning a lick face-to-face from another player. Also, taking some staff paper and writing out my own. I have several licks that I developed that way and still use.
    Exactly! That's the way I learned most of my stuff anyways. I retired last year, that's when I decided to focus some serious time reading music. That's been a Godsend! That said, I also realized that I didn't have anyone to jam with anymore, that really sucks. Luckily, I ran into a couple of jazzers in an ad I placed so now it's time for me to get busy. Much appreciated!

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Then maybe practice MOSTLY melodies until you are better at hearing them and playing them. By ear. Finally, arpeggios and scales are just tidied up melodies. Makes sense to relate them to melodies.
    Great idea here, it's simple, to the point and exactly what I have to do! I also like how you tidied up arpeggios because I'm having a tough time working through them. Cheers!

  25. #74

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    Hy fathand...
    I'm one of those guys that that can musically explain what makes a good melodic line.... all the BS. Anyway, Here are some PDF's of Melodic Min, fingerings for scales, arpeggios and licks.

    I can get into what makes good melodic and jazz sounding lines etc.... but you need to be able to physically play the melodic material.... before you can begin to develop good melodic lines. This very basic approach I use with Music is.....

    You begin with a Reference.... could be almost anything, a chord, a note, scales, arpeggio... a tune, an approach for playing etc...

    You then create a musical relationship using that Reference...

    You then developing that relationship...

    Your then free to add references, relationships and developments of ....all with organization.

    I have pretty standard approaches for using MM when creating relationships and developing them... Relative and parallel relationships and Dom. relationships. anyway hope the fingerings help.... they are all related to Maj positions and chords etc...
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