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Hello everyone,
I finally want to get serious with "unlocking the fretboard". I want to use the approach of learning the major scale (and it's arpeggios/chords/intervals) all over the fretboard and then using that to derive any other scale out there.
There are a few ways to go about that, especially regarding modes. Lets say I want to play D Dorian. I could get there by having memorized that D Dorian is built from C Major, find the C major scale and start from the second note.
Or I could derive D Dorian from the D major scale and move individual notes around based on the differences between ionan and dorian (in this case flattening the third and seventh of D major).
What approach do you use or find more useful? I'm tired of fractured knowledge and want to have one cohesive approach to scales and arpeggios that I can use from start to finish.
To me it seems easier to see modes/scales as modified versions of Ionian, but maybe thats not the best way to go about it, but to rather use the relative Ionian scale for every mode?
Would love to hear your thoughts.
Thank you very much!
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11-12-2018 10:37 AM
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Neither. For me, dorian is it's own thing. Yes, in the beginning it helps to think, "D dorian is C major starting on the 2nd degree", but to actually use it on the fly you need to think of it as it's own thing. Just my opinion.
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The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
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Eventually you're aware of both, but it helps to start somewhere. I like the way it's presented in the first PDF in post 32 here:
Do you use arpeggio shapes, major scale shapes, or something else?
These 6th string interval relationships become a physical reference for remembering the notes etc.
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The major scale is one.
When you can snatch the mode from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.
Last edited by Drumbler; 11-18-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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I started with major and minor pentatonic scales and learned which intervals to add to get the various modes. I still tend to see things this way even though I know the scales well enough to just play them without thinking about it much.
Probably the best way to go about it for a jazz player would be to hang the various modes off of their associated 7th chord arpeggio. You should be able to play a given maj7 arpeggio anywhere on the fingerboard. Add the 9 #11 and 13 for Lydian.
Do the same thing with the rest of the modes and any other scales you want to organize.
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As I understand it, the usual way is to learn the modes individually. So, you learn D dorian by note name, or by interval, or by geometric patterns.
Again, as I understand it, the argument for not thinking Cmajor (as opposed to D Dorian) is that you'll end up playing lines that relate to C, not D. That is, if you're playing a tune in D Dorian, you want to hear the root as D, not C -- and the intervals as relating to D not C.
I might not be right about that, and maybe a better theoretician will help.
That said, I didn't do it that way. Instead, I focused on learning the chord tones in the chords I use and in the underlying tonal center.
It may be easier to explain by thinking about the piano. C major and D Dorian are all the white keys. Same notes, of course. So, if you're playing a tune in D dorian, you can think of the chord as, say, Dm13. That keeps you rooted in D Dorian. And, you can remember that it's all white keys. Or, more simply, you can think Dm or Dm7 as the chord and the rest of the white keys as extensions of that chord. That will keep your ear in the correct mode. Some will suggest emphasizing the B note to present the character of the mode.
The same logic applies to guitar. If you know where all the "white key notes" are, you can pick the ones you want for the chord.
Eventually, as you play more and more tunes in different modes it all melts together and you don't have to think chord and tonal center separately.
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You are describing what is known as derivative and parallel perspectives on the same information.
A 7 note major scale, starting on each degree yields 7 unique intervallic structures.
Viewed collectively, they form the starting reference material of major key tonality.
This is the derivative vantage point. If you already know some major scale fingerings,
then this is probably the easiest first step.
Viewed comparatively with other modes from a common root note is the parallel perspective.
This is based on awareness of the intervallic structure of each mode.
This vantage point will better serve practical application.
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So that means that I use the 6th string as a refernce for everything?
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Stepwise that would be:
I want to play D Dorian, I remember the Dorian scale shape from the PDF and find D on the 6th string. From there, I play the entire fret board using all fingerings presented in the PDF. That sounds very logical but is it smart to base everything on the 6th string? I would assume it would take some time to immediately find the notes that are further away from the 6th string root.
Or am I completely off track here?
By the way, thank you all for the great answers! It seems like everyone does it a little diferently which is cool to know.
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This way of describing it as a multistep thought process is pretty common in questions about this, but that's not really the way you think about it once you know the fretboard...the sounds, the layout etc. It's not a "have to". It's just maybe a starting point to get started. Originally Posted by Schaine
You could think of piano keyboard, or notes on a the staff etc. Everything is derivative of something in the beginning . Then, in the end, it's more holistic and interconnected. Anyway, if you relate them to guitar in someway, it's helpful to use the same reference (like the sixth string root) to really get an idea of what exactly changes.
Either way, if you learn the relative relationships, you're going to come to understand the parallel relationships as well ....or vice versa. I think most people start with relative probably, regardless of instrument, simply because it has a basic physical relationship to something you should already know.
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Here is a slightly different perspective. There aren't 7 notes to music, there are 12. A good approach to fretboard I believe is moving towards knowing the functions and sounds of ALL the notes in a position with respect to any chosen note.
Let's take any Eb Major position. This position also contains is Bb Mixolydian, F Dorian etc. But how good is knowing that position is F Dorian if one doesn't instantly know which notes in that position are the 6ths?
So first good objective is to instantly know the function of every note in that position with respect to any note in the Eb Major "note collection".
But then how good is knowing Bb Mixolydian if one doesn't know where are the b9's, #9's etc in that position. Since "outside" notes are relevant also to other chords, the next step is to instantly know all the chromatic notes with respect to any scale note in that position.
Once you know that than you have both parallel and derivative perspectives available to you.
I'm certainly not there yet, but that's the direction I'm moving towards.
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You could also try playing the dorian scale starting and ending on different chord tones (target notes). Something like this (attached pdf). Try experimenting over a D-7 vamp starting and ending on different beats on the measure.
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Here are a few ways that students are taught to start playing modes of the diatonic scales, in this instance the modes from the major scale.
SCALE:
1. Select a fingering "system " (CAGED, 3NPS, Leavitt, some combination thereof)
2. Learn to play the major scale in all fingerings from that system (that will cover 12 frets). Play across all six strings ascending and descending, etc.
MODES:
1. Play two-octave modes from the 6th string, one mode at a time up the fretboard (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc.,). Focus on one "best" or "preferred" fingering per mode, although the above mentioned fingerings will actually provide you with more than one choice from the 6th string. (CAGED provides you with 2 two-octave choices per mode from the 6th string, for example).
2. Learn one-octave modes in position, covering every fingering pattern in #1, above. (See William Leavittt Modern Method for Guitar Volume 1, pages 61, 71, 80, 90 - although he adds a chromatic tone in each mode to form an 8-note scale. You can just skip the added note).
Bottom line?
1. You should be able to play each mode in two octaves from the 6th string in at least one place, and two places is even better.
2. You should be able to play each mode in one octave in at least 7 places (starting strings: 6,5,4,3 - two starting fingers for starting strings 6,5,4 for CAGED. Other systems will provide you with even more choices)
One more item - you should also learn to play two-octave modes from the 5th string, by shifting to a higher position (next higher adjacent fingering pattern from your chosen system) for the higher octave. This is like the Segovia scales approach. You can't always start on the 6th string.
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An alternative approach:
1. Memorize the fretboard.
2. Memorize the notes in the scales and modes you use.
A good way to work on #1 is to learn to read all over the fingerboard.
#2 is a lot of work, but, once you get it, you know it all, all over the neck. I think that most people do this by learning fingerings, but there is another way (with different pros and cons).
Suppose you want to play D dorian, or G mixo, or B locrian. These are all the notes in Cmajor -- the white keys. If you knew, instantly, the location of every one of those notes -- all over the fingerboard -- would you need patterns to play them? And, would you have any tendency to be "root bound", meaning needing to start on the root, because that's the way you practiced it?
I think you'd find that you can start any scale or mode on any note, any finger, anyplace on the fingerboard without worrying about where it was in a pattern. And, if you knew the scale tones and extensions of the chords you use, the same thing would happen. You could start anything anywhere.
Now, of course, you can get to the same result by learning patterns. The advantage is that you'd probably be able to play the pattern faster. The work required to get there would be to practice everything in 5 positions and then practice starting all the patterns on any note and broken up in different ways. Even more work, I think.
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Learning the fretboard is a great point, but is also a must for serious guitarists,right? So maybe not an alternative? I don't know. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
And yes, patterns can be learned fast, as you say. The thing is, if one plays all the fingering patterns in their base system (CAGED or whatever) they can also play the modes, they just may not know it yet because they haven't tried.
So, if you know your major scale in all your fingering patterns well, give yourself a few weeks max to play the modes within them.
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As I understand it, that's the usual approach. My view is a minority view, at best. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
I learned patterns first. I never could use them fluently. One of my teachers, Warren Nunes, certainly could. He had 7 patterns, corresponding to modes. Apparently, he knew them well enough that he could stay in one position and pick one of the seven patterns for a chord, and a different one for the next chord etc and make it sound like music. I was never able to do that. I remember reading GP columns with dots on a grid representing patterns for various things -- and I couldn't even bring myself to practice them.
So, after working out my system, it works like this. For example, in a tune that is D dorian, I know which notes work, all over the neck, and I don't have to think about patterns. Whatever the chord is, I know the chord tones and extensions and I put in anything else by ear.
If I encounter a chord that isn't automatic, I drill it. Even enharmonics. This morning I got hung up when I saw a D#m7b5 that I didn't expect. I had to think, which takes too long. So I'll drill it this week. If it had been Ebm7b5, I'd have known it. There isn't time to think, "oh, that's the same as Ebm7b5". It has to be instantaneous. As it turned out, I had to grab a root bound arpeggio pattern to play over the chord. No clams, but no music either. Next time, I'll know where every note in the chord is and be able to continue whatever line precedes it.
It works, and I post it just to mention an alternative approach. Like any other approach to anything on guitar there are great players who did it some other way.
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Hello,
thanks again for all the amazing answers! It is really great to get sophisticated insight from so many guitar players!
I have realized that I like FwLineberrys (post #5) idea the best, because I still mostly play blues-focussed stuff and therefore think it is smart to base things on pentatonics that I mostly know already. I have come up with this table:
Major pentatonic 1 3 4 5 6
Minor pentatonic 1 b3 4 5 b7
2 7 Ionian/Major
2 b7 Mixolydian
#4 7 Lydian
2 6 Dorian
2 b6 Aeolian, 7 for harmonic Minor
b2 b6 Phrygian, b5 for locrian
I think I will enjoy this way of looking at things the most. It keeps everything very tidy and I can base my playing on pentatonics and add colour notes from the modes when the chords/my ear calls for them.
This is not to say that I didn't like the other approaches mentioned here, but I know my head and my fingers and what usually works for them
I have used this approach unknowingly to play dorian already and since that has worked, why not go all the way!
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Ok. CAGED basically. What most of us probably learn in the beginning. Just understand that if you take the process you describe above through to completion you're basically learning CAGED patterns anyway, right? Originally Posted by Schaine
Hello,
thanks again for all the amazing answers! It is really great to get sophisticated insight from so many guitar players!
I have realized that I like FwLineberrys (post #5) idea the best, because I still mostly play blues-focussed stuff and therefore think it is smart to base things on pentatonics that I mostly know already. I have come up with this table:
Major pentatonic 1 3 4 5 6
Minor pentatonic 1 b3 4 5 b7
2 7 Ionian/Major
2 b7 Mixolydian
#4 7 Lydian
2 6 Dorian
2 b6 Aeolian, 7 for harmonic Minor
b2 b6 Phrygian, b5 for locrian
I think I will enjoy this way of looking at things the most. It keeps everything very tidy and I can base my playing on pentatonics and add colour notes from the modes when the chords/my ear calls for them.
This is not to say that I didn't like the other approaches mentioned here, but I know my head and my fingers and what usually works for them I have used this approach unknowingly to play dorian already and since that has worked, why not go all the way!
The thing about CAGED is that it works somewhat as position fingerings, but it doesn't give you a connection to the similarities/differences between modes or how pitches change between key signatures and modulations etc. Your minor modes are going to start with first finger, and major modes start with the second finger . It's like they're completely different animals, when actually, Dorian and mixolydian are only one note apart.
For the theoretical understanding of pitch etc. , you still basically need piano or music staff as your reference, if you don't have a more fixed reference on the instrument. No huge deal. Anything works with enough time.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-13-2018 at 09:36 AM.
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Personally, I find it hard to believe that a person could memorize all note names of all scales and then use the names of the notes on the fretboard to figure out what patterns are created on the fretboard. It also doesn't make much sense to me to learn it this way, as there is a logic to how a scale is build up. So why not use those?
If we are talking about which notes to play, then the notes you play to play a D dorian mode are the same as the notes you play to play a C major scale. So having memorized one is having memorized the other. Of course (or maybe not so obviously judging by countless videos on youtube claiming to explain modes), this is a terrible basis for understanding what a mode is from a music theory perspective. But that isn't the point of learning which pattern on the fretboard to use, right?
Learning just the pattern, and not what intervals they form with the tonic, doesn't give you a conscious concept of what notes you are playing. But here you can just follow your inner ear. Hopefully you hear music in your head, or you feel something and you know what sound a note is going to make before you play it.
If you would completely lack this ability to hear the chords you are playing, and subconsciously consider which note is tonic and what the relationship with everything else is. What notes are consonant and which ones need to be resolved to where, then yes, you would play the exact same licks whether you are in D or in C, given the C major fretboard pattern. You wouldn't end your licks on D when when the chords have D as a tonic. And you also wouldn't resolve to C if the chords are functional harmony in C major. But you can only lack that if you have a neurological disorder that prevents you from perceiving music like the average human would.
I think it would be an improvement to memorize first the C major and A minor pattern. Then to learn all the degrees of the scale by heart. And then to learn how to shift up or down some notes to change the scale. But to me, this has been a very big challenge.
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There are 2 our 3 ways to approach in the beginning. Take a poll of others etc, but ultimately you have to pick what makes the most sense to you. A college professor of mine used to explain multiple ways and say, "if this way confuses you , ignore it". In the end, you will most likely understand it on multiple levels simultaneously, and that's perfectly fine and normal.
Things are usually understood differently in the beginning...and approached differently in the practice room.
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I realized, some years ago, that I knew every note in Cmajor all over the neck, without thinking.
So, I could play C Ionian, D Dorian, E phrygian etc. by considering two things -- the chord of the moment, and the underlying major Key.
So, for example, if I'm playing a modal tune in Dm, I think Dm (or Dm13 or Dm6) and recognize that the rest of the mode is all the notes of Cmaj.
Then, you have to get that automatic in 12 keys. A lot of work.
The advantage is that, once you know the notes, you can switch to a new scale/mode/chord instantly starting anywhere on the fretboard with any finger. You don't have to think about patterns. Now, it may be easier for most people to do it with geometric patterns, but that didn't work for me. One thing that may make this a little easier is that some keys occur infrequently in the tunes many of us play.
I never could memorize lots of patterns. Once I knew them, I generally was limited to playing them the way I practiced them. So, I'd practice a scale and then have to play it from the root. To break that habit, I'd have to practice it in multiple ways to try to burn the pattern into my brain well enough that I could "see it light up on the fretboard" so that I could find the notes. I found that impossible.
So, I started thinking about the fact that I could already do it in C major -- and I realized I could do it in F and G and Bb, Eb, Ab, D, A and E. So I focused on the remaining scales. Ab, Db, Gb, F# (because you don't have time to think F# is Gb), and B.
It works and I'm not convinced it's actually harder than going by patterns.
Of course, this is a device for intermediate players. Whichever way you learn it, you probably end up close to the same place when you're playing and not thinking about all the math.
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Another alternative approach is to move away from organizing musical elements as structures and shifting toward internalizing them functionally. You can do this with what you already know by ensuring that you never play anything on the instrument that you don't listen to very carefully. Many musicians eventually shift toward functional internalization without deliberately setting out to do so.
The conceptual stream for structural playing is heavily "front loaded" with mental verbalization used to identify, select, manipulate, integrate, and coordinate the musical elements about to be played.
Internalizing functionally is not adding more of a different mental conversation but non-verbally recognizing, predicting, and confirming the way things played sound within context, and until the internalization is well established, functional playing will be somewhat heavily "back loaded" with its fundamental process, audiation, rather distracted due to the confirmation role learning the heightened quality control verification of what has just been played.
There are no methods, lesson plans, or training exercises other than developing a profound single minded focus on the way things sound, including personally formulating one's study of musical in terms of questions, explorations, experiments, and answers with regard to how things sound.
This approach departs from external public verbal language and rather develops internal non-verbal abstract representations which become constructed from and so comprised of your own unique mental symbols. That makes describing it difficult, but because the substance of the objects of internalization are literally composed of schema of oneself's own mind, their form presents an uncanny familiarity, access to them is immediate, and implementation feels natural.
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Love this. I hate it when brilliant improvisors are described as untrained because they aren't drenched inThis approach departs from external public verbal language and rather develops internal non-verbal abstract representations which become constructed from and so comprised of your own unique mental symbols.
traditional theory knowledge, yet they navigate musical complexities with seeming ease.
This to me describes what I imagine to be the case with such players, they aren't devoid of a descriptive language,
they just organize their thinking in a personal way.
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So what is a useful traditional way of grasping modes.
There are 15 standard key signatures to major and minor scales.
These should be memorized.
This forms the basis of a derivative view of the material.
I think of scales/modes that are derived from a single scale not as modes but as inversions of said scale.
Each inversion reveals a unique aspect of the harmonic content inherent in the total structure of the scale.
So when playing diatonically Dm7 G7 Cma7 Am7, we are not really playing 4 modes.
Those aspects are revealed with greatest clarity by the harmonic rhythm section far more than they are by the improvising
melodic player. Modal perspective kicks in given playing scenarios when scale sources are mixed.
Still building on fundamental key signature knowledge is an easy gateway to knowing the modes derived from the
major scale. It offers 3 takes on minor 7th extensions, 2 on major, 1 on dominant and 1 on minor 7b5.
Although different from Paul's approach, we get something under our fingers and through playing over time, we
become familiar with the content. Although parallel thinking is much closer to modal usage, the derivative approach is
probably the quickest way to begin addressing major scale derived modal content, when we learn key signatures.
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